The Official Forum fail thread: This game wasn't meant for alts.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't really care what role the new jobs are, just give me something that isn't exactly like what we already have. I would have played NIN in a hot second if it were anything like XI, just to play a tank that was different. The only jobs that have real, substantive variations are the healers, which is surely not a coincidence - healers aren't really competing for HPS as long as they meet a bare minimum standard.

edit: You don't have to go to Rift for magetanks. RDM/NIN was an endgame tank in late 75-era XI (spamming resisted debuffs for enmity).

[Destinye]

Because a mage tank is totally off the rocker? Oh wait.

You can make the jobs damn near anything but it requires your dev team to be inspired and make the necessary logical leaps to make it work. Also Barance. I would kill to have a riftstalker tank in this game. Blink all the places.

It's not weird, since even in XI mages are used as tanks in some format, but XIV isn't that kind of MMO. It has to fit the mold so no one is "different" or "excluded." I mean, DRK is literally a PLD reskin with hints of Warrior.

[Hioki]

It's not weird, since even in XI mages are used as tanks in some format, but XIV isn't that kind of MMO. It has to fit the mold so no one is "different" or "excluded." I mean, DRK is literally a PLD reskin with hints of Warrior.

Pretty much. Mage Tanks work, Rift's soul, Arbiter, is a pretty good example of that. The entire class is called Mage as well. Our current combat system kinda sucks that everything ends up just being a reskin of another class. Their not willing to create new resources for classes(Ex. TP/MP only). Or when they create a new mechanic with a job, it has to force a similar gameplay on equivalent classes(ex. BRD/MCH).

It's like, GUYS! IT'S OK that jobs are not similar.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Besides, DRK has flipflopped between glass cannon DPS and "sort of a tank" across the series until it became tank here. Red Mage tank isn't entirely unreasonable. I mean Ninja was "supposed to" be a DPS in XI (and more or less is anywhere else in the series) but players turned it into a tank. Still ended up as a DPS here.

Also, more than their not wanting to make new resources I'd say one issue is not using the resources they have. TP is totally worthless to all mages (Sprint doesn't count), MP is totally worthless to basically all (edit: Ok, half) DoW. This is one area where I actually think 1.0 had the right idea (Stamina bar as a parallel resources) but, as with everything 1.0, royally screwed the execution.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, more than their not wanting to make new resources I'd say one issue is not using the resources they have. TP is totally worthless to all mages (Sprint doesn't count), MP is totally worthless to basically all DoW.

I wouldn't go quite that far. MP is essential to BRD (who should always be either using or recovering MP in 99%+ of fights), and both MCH and PLD care about MP to the point of having to manage it situationally. DRK's MP bar is effectively a completely different resource with the same name (as it is unaffected by party MP recover/conserve abilities).

It would be nice to see more jobs be able to consume MP as a resource, but as usual, SE doesn't want to allow anything that could become a player requirement.

[Corrderio]

Because a mage tank is totally off the rocker? Oh wait.

You can make the jobs damn near anything but it requires your dev team to be inspired and make the necessary logical leaps to make it work. Also Barance. I would kill to have a riftstalker tank in this game. Blink all the places.

I'm talking more in the FF world and not other RPGs. Like I said in my edit with a gimmick other than "take it in the face" like PLD/DRK/WAR it could be possible, but given how XIV is afraid of change, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Hioki]

I'm talking more in the FF world and not other RPGs. Like I said in my edit with a gimmick other than "take it in the face" like PLD/DRK/WAR it could be possible, but given how XIV is afraid of change, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Pretty much everyone in FF is a tank since there were no established threat mechanics. Aggro was never a thing in any of the other main series until 11, i believe. Unless you include front/back row in 2? Also, couldn't Blue Mage tank to some extent?

Change is terrifying for them and I don't see much in the way of change going into 4.0. The thought of that really sucks. Usually you look at an expansion and see some form of a new battle mechanic/system to get hyped for, in this game I plan to see nearly nothing and my hype around the game stays stagnate. While everyone has the expectations of new abilities, introducing something more innovative seems so far out 14's reach.

[Corrderio]

Eh I suppose. Been awhile but it always felt like my Red Mages only did slightly better for taking damage than my White mage in FF1.

Either way, I really don't see how RDM would do without some unique hook since with how the game is set up, it's kind of hard to introduce a "jack of all trades" class.

[Alistaire]

Besides, DRK has flipflopped between glass cannon DPS and "sort of a tank" across the series until it became tank here. Red Mage tank isn't entirely unreasonable. I mean Ninja was "supposed to" be a DPS in XI (and more or less is anywhere else in the series) but players turned it into a tank. Still ended up as a DPS here.

Also, more than their not wanting to make new resources I'd say one issue is not using the resources they have. TP is totally worthless to all mages (Sprint doesn't count), MP is totally worthless to basically all (edit: Ok, half) DoW. This is one area where I actually think 1.0 had the right idea (Stamina bar as a parallel resources) but, as with everything 1.0, royally screwed the execution.

And xi's SAM was designed to be a tank. One of the reasons I figure it'll be a tank here; it's SE taking their chance to get it right this time.

I really don't see how RDM would do without some unique hook since with how the game is set up, it's kind of hard to introduce a "jack of all trades" class.

To an extent they'd have to forgo the "jack of all trades" idea except to the extent tanks already do this. You DPS but not as good as a DPS, and self-heal to an extent too.

[Corrderio]

To an extent they'd have to forgo the "jack of all trades" idea except to the extent tanks already do this. You DPS but not as good as a DPS, and self-heal to an extent too.

Wonder if that'd cause more wtfs like it did when DRK was introduced as a tank.

That and probably having to create a while new gear set for RDM since they're not a full heavy armor class. I dunno, I'm thinking way too much into this.

[Seravi Edalborez]

So where would people get the idea that SMN should be the first to raise people? I know they don't have quite the same MP drought problem they had in FCoB but jesus that's still a large chunk of MP to expect a DPS to give up. Healers don't need that much babying.

Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lities/d6uiqwc

[3.141592]

So where would people get the idea that SMN should be the first to raise people? I know they don't have quite the same MP drought problem they had in FCoB but jesus that's still a large chunk of MP to expect a DPS to give up. Healers don't need that much babying.

Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lities/d6uiqwc

I love how the healers complain that it's not their job to dps, even tho they can, but they want the dps to raise, because they can.

[Modoru]

So where would people get the idea that SMN should be the first to raise people? I know they don't have quite the same MP drought problem they had in FCoB but jesus that's still a large chunk of MP to expect a DPS to give up. Healers don't need that much babying.

Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lities/d6uiqwc

This post tho:

This mentality is the reason of abysmally low raid clear rates in the west. "Super-Elite, Dps-optimal strat or bust!" instead of minimizing the risk of mistakes and wipes.

Uh, no, what
it's called being able to do basic mechanics
fuckin' hell

[octopus]

I didn't see anything from that post that says healers shouldn't raise and smn should raise first.

Edit: nevermind, the idiot is deeper in the thread lol

[echo]

Usually a SMN raises if multiple people died or if one of the healers died and the other is busy actually having to heal or swiftcast is down. Raising is still the healer's job, SMN raise should be a back-up plan.

I have seen some SMN not raise even when both healers are dead and the fight is still recoverable. Happened in a Bismarck normal I got in trials. Half the party stacked for lightning, they died (including both healers, we had a SMN and instead of raising he went on the back to DPS. GG.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Yeah, if you're in full on wipe prevention mode then of course SMN is your last resort. But I feel like in most situations asking a SMN to be the first to raise is like asking a melee to Sprint to deal with someone else fucking up a mechanic. It's maybe recoverable but that's a heavy loss in more ways that one. If anything I've always felt (being a main at one time) that SCH should be one of if not the first to raise anybody.

I haven't really been following SMN (or any kind of DPS) meta since I've quit but if it's the same as it's ever been I'd assume Ruin2+autoattacks when not intrusive to positioning or fight/specific needs is still considered optimal. Dumping a ton of MP on a raise (and a Swiftcast on a not-ShadowFlare) is a lot of Ruins that you're probably going to have to skip to keep on even pace, since you can't expect Ballad for JUST the SMN unless something is going horribly wrong. And I think unless you are on the absolute edge of a victory most would just take the loss and start fresh if it's that far gone. In progression at least. Easymode trials are whatever.

Also, what are healers using Swiftcast for mid-fight these days? Other than maybe Shadow Flare for SCH I can't think of a lot other than QoL uses.

[octopus]

Shadow Flare, and sometimes I'd swiftcast an emergency tactics + succor when indom is on cooldown. I always raise first tho as scholar, actually the habit is hard to break when I play other healers too lol

[Twilight Sky]

Also, what are healers using Swiftcast for mid-fight these days?

Quick raises, quick Cure 2's/Med 1 or 2 when needed in a pinch. Or at least that's been the only times I've had to use it mid-fight.

When I play with SMNs I always forget they can raise.

[Yukari]

Also, what are healers using Swiftcast for mid-fight these days? Other than maybe Shadow Flare for SCH I can't think of a lot other than QoL uses.

In our group, it was mostly quick AOE heal bursts when they need to move for mechanic + deal with raidwides.

[Destinye]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3827665

Apparently punishment for failing is tied to being a masochist. No wonder MMOs designed for people with that mindset are boring.