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  1. #7361
    A. Body
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    I don't think (or at least hope) the talk of removing cleric stance isn't to nerf healer dps; it's to make it simpler. Most of the talk I've seen about it is about making healer dps mind-based so they won't need cleric; it's to reduce button bloat and the chance of deaths from cleric not coming off due to neglect or lag.

  2. #7362
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Yoshi seems pretty specifically against healers dpsing because all the idiot casuals who make up most of the playerbase won't stop whining about how it's too hard for them to heal and dps. I know he's (probably) not making the final calls on all of the battle design decisions but if his mindset reflects the rest of the dev team, we could have some fairly shitted-up healer classes on our hands pretty soon.

    If they removed the ability for healers to dps at all, I'm not sure if I would or wouldn't stop playing healer in protest.

  3. #7363
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    I've recently picked up scholar for the first time.

    I'm confused. When my Fairy is doing 90% of the heals required for a dungeon, what the fuck else am I meant to do instead of DPSing? Generate needless aggro by overhealing? Stand around doing emotes?

    People are just fucking lazy and come up with the garbage that healers shouldn't dps.

  4. #7364
    Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    There is consistently one half of the playerbase taking the stance that healers shouldn't have to dps while the other half takes the stance that healers need to dps. With the stance XIV takes being to dumb everything down to the point where there is nothing to argue about anymore, I am afraid that Stormblood is going to de-fang healers even more. Yoshi said people will complain if cleric stance is removed, but he clearly expressed that he was on the side of players who think healers shouldn't have to dps. As an AST main, that scares me regarding the prospects of healer classes in SB.
    I wouldn't mind if they removed cleric stance if I actually had some shit to do on WHM or AST (and apparently it's worst on SCH from comments I've seen).

    If they gave healers more support spells, buffs to keep on the party, debuff to keep on the mobs maybe I'll have something to do. I guess it would also help if so many fights weren't relying on DPS checks.

    The only times I go full time heal is when I'm watching Netflix while browsing the forums.

  5. #7365
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    I've recently picked up scholar for the first time.

    I'm confused. When my Fairy is doing 90% of the heals required for a dungeon, what the fuck else am I meant to do instead of DPSing? Generate needless aggro by overhealing? Stand around doing emotes?

    People are just fucking lazy and come up with the garbage that healers shouldn't dps.
    Do what most NA healers I've seen doing:

    -Stand around shaking their butt
    -Jump around in a circle
    -Jump around in a figure 8 occasionally doing a heal.

  6. #7366
    Bagel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistaire View Post
    Most of the talk I've seen about it is about making healer dps mind-based so they won't need cleric; it's to reduce button bloat and the chance of deaths from cleric not coming off due to neglect or lag.
    To be honest its how it should have been to start with, I wonder what Yoshi's argument was when they decided to make it INT,maybe I am bias because of XI but it worked fine there.

    Now noob suestion as I have never played healer in XIV, but isnt SCH using the "ruins" spell to DPS? Because the MND vs INT would conflict there.

  7. #7367
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    DoTs from their ACN class + Broil/Boil? Whatever it's called and Ruins probably, but I know a big part seems to be DoT and their higher level dps skill. So MND vs INT does conflict, but realistically, it's not that hard of a concept, people in this game's community just...really are a special bunch.

    I guess they hang on yoshi's hatred of XI a bit too closely. Since even the slightest hint of doing something different tends to make him say "we're not FFXI (laughs)" and I've never seen such a huge split on people having a problem with ONE ability. (Cleric's Stance) yeah sometimes you can forget about it or lag happens and you don't actually cancel it, but it's really not like Healers have a rotation compared to other jobs, so aside the occasional heal/buff (depending on healer) what are you actually going to do when none of that is needed? lol

  8. #7368
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    Apparently, it's easy to make damage abilities (including cross-class abilities like Feint or Haymaker) calculate off of STR on one class and DEX on another, but it's impossibly difficult to make damage abilities calculate off of INT on one class and MND on another.

    Either that, or Yoshi specifically wanted to make it harder for healers to DPS. I choose the latter.

  9. #7369
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    It seems like it would be really easy to make healer dps abilities can just be calculated off of mind and remove cleric's stance, problem solved.

    I'm sure you'd still have people complaining on OF about healers dpsing, but at least it would be easier to deal with than cleric's stance's annoying issues at the moment.

  10. #7370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    because all the idiot casuals who make up most of the playerbase won't stop whining about how it's too hard for them to heal and dps.
    Even if you removed attributes and gave every class a Power stat which governs the strength of all your skills, and removed Clerics to remove the 'stress' of being in the wrong stance, most healers still won't DPS.
    Spoiler: show
    I honestly still think they should do the former given the attribute system in this game means fuckall outside of VIT/PIE, which can be renamed into +HP/+MP anyways.

  11. #7371
    Bagel
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    Well we are talking about people who moaned about STR tanks after all.. see what happened.

  12. #7372
    Ridill
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    Eh I'm happy STR tanks got nerfed. Didn't like sharing my STR accessories with a quarter of the fucking raid.

  13. #7373
    Bagel
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    Thats possibly the only good reason as to why it happened, my point was more toward the fact that these OFidiots were complaining about it using argument such as "every tank good or bad should not be using STR because they need more HPs"

    Now we are facing the same kind of argument, this time its "Every healers should not be DPSing good or bad because healers need to focus healing only"

    Everyone seems to forget that the very root of FFs was to give you choices and options minus a few titles, you alway sort of had a way or another to customise things. This is another reason why I miss XI, no one was there to tell me "RDM is a healer only" people were open minded and they would praise concepts such as RDM/NIN which I miss dearly, Im waiting for XIV RDM with impatience but I am also scared by a possible upcoming disappointment.

  14. #7374
    Resident Moogle
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    FFXI was flexible to most encounters up to the size of an alliance generally. Ez-strats for certain BCNMs aside, you always had wiggle room for odd class combos/niche uses. We don't have that luxury in ARR, and DPS windows in the scripted fights are (or were, before Creator came out) generally strict enough to the point that you wanted optimal class composition to not hold the group back.


    For the way ARR is progressing, I'd rather they just cut the bullshit and streamline the things that need to be streamlined. Least cross-class skills are getting the axe in 4.0. Will be until 5.0 or beyond when they decide to either rid of classes, or make them mandatory permanent upgrades into jobs to go beyond lvl30.
    Spoiler: show
    Which that scenario would likely see SCH being split off into its own Job, which would be SE's excuse to retool/nerf its toolkit


    Still have nfc why there's a Resistances tab when almost nothing in the game uses Resistances in a manner that would have you looking in that area, besides a novelty stat on select gear, potions, and very specific debuffs which in their particular usage may as well be a Damage Vulnerability stack.

  15. #7375
    The Real Cookiemonster
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    Quote Originally Posted by FHT View Post

    no one was there to tell me "RDM is a healer only" people were open minded and they would praise concepts such as RDM/NIN which I miss dearly,
    I want some of what you're having.

    (I know people towards the endgame spectrum were often of this mentality, but the majority of the playerbase was not quite that openminded.)

  16. #7376
    Bagel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    I want some of what you're having.

    (I know people towards the endgame spectrum were often of this mentality, but the majority of the playerbase was not quite that openminded.)
    I'm having a sundae toffee at this time, its 99p at your nearest McDonald's. And yes, you could go RDM/WHM or RDM/NIN to HNMs, RDM/NIN or RDM/BLM in Dyna, had opportunities to solo somes NMs as RDM/NIN if you wanted to and you would have fun while doing so, you had more flexibility overall.

  17. #7377
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythiroth View Post
    It seems like it would be really easy to make healer dps abilities can just be calculated off of mind and remove cleric's stance, problem solved.
    My point was that the Cleric's Stance mechanic was put in place intentionally to make it more cumbersome to heal and DPS at the same time (i.e. feature, not bug).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaisha View Post
    Even if you removed attributes and gave every class a Power stat which governs the strength of all your skills, and removed Clerics to remove the 'stress' of being in the wrong stance, most healers still won't DPS.
    In such a scenario, you would have to restrict accessories to roles. Otherwise, there would be a mad scramble for whichever role's accessories gave CRT/DET in each tier.

    Quote Originally Posted by FHT View Post
    I'm having a sundae toffee at this time, its 99p at your nearest McDonald's. And yes, you could go RDM/WHM or RDM/NIN to HNMs, RDM/NIN or RDM/BLM in Dyna, had opportunities to solo somes NMs as RDM/NIN if you wanted to and you would have fun while doing so, you had more flexibility overall.
    This really only applied in expert level groups (or while soloing, of course). Outside of that, the idea of using unconventional builds in a PUG would usually get you swiftly removed; the best case scenario is you have about 30 minutes to prove that you are actually SUPERIOR to a standard build.

  18. #7378
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Anything that gets down button bloat I'm all for. I'd rather see fluff skills rolled into passives or as secondary actives on other spells and abilities.

  19. #7379
    Chram
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    Gentlemen, we've all forgotten the question ever at the fore of Yoshida's mind: Would that be confusing for the new player though?

    Can't forget about the new players.

  20. #7380
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    Yep, which is why we lost things like 'healing magic potency" since that's far too confusing of a concept. There really isn't anything complex needed since the systems already exist, I'm more worried about the new cross system they're talking about introducing, because that seems far more.."confusing" than just separating the jobs instead of complete homogenization.