1. FFXIV Reset Timers
    Last daily reset was 16 hours, 5 minutes ago / Next daily reset is in 7 hours, 54 minutes
    Last weekly reset was 9 hours, 5 minutes ago / Next weekly reset is in 6 days, 0 hours, 54 minutes
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 41 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 12 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 816
  1. #21
    Yoshi P
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,141
    BG Level
    8
    FFXIV Character
    Dead Gye
    FFXIV Server
    Lamia
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtyHobo View Post
    You aren't counting the 0 second tick (is one even possible?), so no, you don't do that. Take Thunder 1 for example, duration of 18 seconds.

    0 seconds: dot applied
    Some time between 0-3 seconds: 1st tick
    Some time between 3-6 seconds: 2nd tick
    Some time between 6-9 seconds: 3rd tick
    Some time between 9-12 seconds: 4th tick
    Some time between 12-15 seconds: 5th tick
    Some time between 15-18 seconds: 6th tick
    18 seconds: dot wears off


    You will always get 6 ticks (and maybe the "perfect world" 7th tick if possible/lucky) no matter when the global dot tick is relative to when you get the dot off.
    Wow, I don't even know what I was thinking anymore. Yeah go ahead and fully ignore my above post. I was probably tired and remembering how refreshing the dot before it wears off carries a (time left / 3s * 100)% chance of losing a tic, and then somehow made that the default in my mind

  2. #22
    Relic Horn
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,296
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Nmtd Natlhom
    FFXIV Server
    Coeurl

    Wasn't the Fire3>Flare>Transpose loop shown to be a better aoe rotation than the fire2 spamming one?

  3. #23
    Bagel
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,388
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Ellatrix Reatori
    FFXIV Server
    Sargatanas
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtyHobo View Post
    Wasn't the Fire3>Flare>Transpose loop shown to be a better aoe rotation than the fire2 spamming one?
    This only worked when you got the UI3 cast time on Flare.

    ------

    With Convert up, your situational thing is wrong because convert gives back the same amount of MP (its % of max hp not current, and if you're below 20% why are you hitting convert in the first place).

    Flare>Convert>Fire2>SC Flare>Transpose

    Without a SCH in the party, just do Flare>Convert>SC Flare instead.

  4. #24
    Relic Horn
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,296
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Nmtd Natlhom
    FFXIV Server
    Coeurl

    I don't see what UI3 has to do with it, you're only at UI1 anyways. You're hard gated by 1 Flare per 12 seconds just on the Transpose timer alone.

    Even with total garbage luck and no spell speed, Transpose > (3 seconds to get a tick of MP back) > 3.5 seconds to cast fire3 > 4 seconds to cast flare, you've got a cushy 1.5 seconds that you're waiting on your Transpose timer to come back up.

  5. #25
    Radsourceful

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1,941
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Bismarck

    I preface this with I don't have a 100% accurate source for UI3/AF3 potencies with detailed testing, but the numbers I see tossed around are largely +80% fire damage af3, -50% to opposing element in either.

    b3>f3>f2>flare>trans is then = 110+110+(100+260)*1.8*targets, or 220+648x every 12 sec, or (18.3 + 49.8x) pps. You're (maybe) capped by transpose as the rotation is~10.5 seconds, if you have to wait more than 1.5 seconds for the UI-1 tic then it'll be >12 sec

    b3>f3>f2 f2 f2 is = 110 + 110 + 3*100*1.8*targets, or 220+540x every 1.75+1.75+9 = ~13 seconds if you have to wait for the UI3 tic a bit, or (16.9 + 41x) pps
    If you add a freeze to this rotation, b3>fr>f3>f2 f2 f2, it's 220+640x every ~16sec or (13.75 + 40x) pps

    2nd rotation doesn't account for waiting on UI-1 tic as shouldn't hit 0 MP ever, but first rotation seems quite a bit better to me. 2nd w/ freeze won't have a ui3 tic wait where as 2nd w/out will, but unsure of the exact time - if it's ~2.5 seconds then w/ freeze should be better.

    Edit: If even if you count spellspeed, there is not a lot potential for the Fire2 based rotation to pull ahead of the flare based one - even though it is dependant on the transpose timer.

    Between 3-10 targets, the flare rotation is about 16-17% better than b3 f3 f2 f2 f2(with no wait for UI3 tic), you'd need about +350 speed to pull ahead of that difference - which is A) impossible currently and B) enough to do a B3 F3 f2 f2 Flare transpose rotation, allowing that to pull ahead again.

    Added bonus is if you have ballad up, you don't even need to transpose - b3 f3 flare ballad-tic b3 f3 flare can be cycled.

  6. #26
    Theory Fighter
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,344
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Frejan Schultz
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    The Thunder spells DPS posted is pretty misleading. Thunder spells DPS is actually Initial damage/casting time + DoT potency/3. The way you have them it seems like they do all the damage in the casting time. So, Thunder would be 30/2.5 + 35/3 = 23.67 DPS, Thunder II would be 50/3 + 35/3 = 28.33 DPS, and Thunder III would be 60/3.5 + 35/3 = 28.81 DPS

  7. #27
    Radsourceful

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1,941
    BG Level
    6
    FFXI Server
    Bismarck

    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    The Thunder spells DPS posted is pretty misleading. Thunder spells DPS is actually Initial damage/casting time + DoT potency/3. The way you have them it seems like they do all the damage in the casting time. So, Thunder would be 30/2.5 + 35/3 = 23.67 DPS, Thunder II would be 50/3 + 35/3 = 28.33 DPS, and Thunder III would be 60/3.5 + 35/3 = 28.81 DPS
    The way he has it laid out is correct in a damage/casting time spent sense - if we were determining total dps sure, but if just optimizing damage per rotation... both have uses.

  8. #28
    Theory Fighter
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,344
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Frejan Schultz
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    The way he has it laid out is correct in a damage/casting time spent sense - if we were determining total dps sure, but if just optimizing damage per rotation... both have uses.
    Yeah, rotation-wise that is correct, but then that's "DPR", not "DPS", no? The last thing I want is someone reading this and spamming T3 over and over for maximum DPS >_<

  9. #29
    Bagel
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,388
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Ellatrix Reatori
    FFXIV Server
    Sargatanas
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtyHobo View Post
    I don't see what UI3 has to do with it, you're only at UI1 anyways. You're hard gated by 1 Flare per 12 seconds just on the Transpose timer alone.

    Even with total garbage luck and no spell speed, Transpose > (3 seconds to get a tick of MP back) > 3.5 seconds to cast fire3 > 4 seconds to cast flare, you've got a cushy 1.5 seconds that you're waiting on your Transpose timer to come back up.
    The rotation was: Fire3>Flare>Transpose>Blizzard2>Blizzard2, so yes you were getting UI3.

  10. #30
    Relic Horn
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,296
    BG Level
    7
    FFXIV Character
    Nmtd Natlhom
    FFXIV Server
    Coeurl

    That's a fucking retarded rotation, especially after they nerfed Bliz2 into oblivion. It's also not what I said.

  11. #31
    Bagel
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,388
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Ellatrix Reatori
    FFXIV Server
    Sargatanas
    FFXI Server
    Fenrir

    It was before the 2.1 patch. Also it was comparable to other rotations:

    http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118...=1#post5933286

    Now with the UI3 cast time being removed from 2nd fire spell and the Bliz2 nerf the rotation is quite dead.

  12. #32
    They're coming to take me away. Ha Ha!
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,647
    BG Level
    7

    New Double Flare rotations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82L9IbUPMxU

    Not my video.

  13. #33
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    The Thunder spells DPS posted is pretty misleading. Thunder spells DPS is actually Initial damage/casting time + DoT potency/3. The way you have them it seems like they do all the damage in the casting time. So, Thunder would be 30/2.5 + 35/3 = 23.67 DPS, Thunder II would be 50/3 + 35/3 = 28.33 DPS, and Thunder III would be 60/3.5 + 35/3 = 28.81 DPS
    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    Yeah, rotation-wise that is correct, but then that's "DPR", not "DPS", no? The last thing I want is someone reading this and spamming T3 over and over for maximum DPS >_<

    because it IS damage per second that you are doing things, it's not like you have to wait around and not cast other spells in order for the DoT to take effect. Not to mention, with AF3 on, fire spells pull ahead on dps, I just didn't have any data to show there, but have some now (the +80% from Radec, which will work for now, and feels about right). Thunder1/2/3 are high dps overall, but since you can't stack your own Thunder DoT's it wouldn't make since to spam it lol...I'll add a not about Thunder DoT not stacking and that the DPS numbers for those spells are cumulative, but I thought that was explained just by me spelling out the dps formula

  14. #34
    Theory Fighter
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,344
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Frejan Schultz
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    I just said it is a bit misleading, not that it is totally wrong, of course. I, as most everyone that read that, understood what you meant: You spend 3 seconds casting Thunder II, you get 295 potency damage for your efforts, even if you have to wait 21 seconds to apply the next one. It's just that the "DPS" term is a bit incorrect there, as the ACTUAL damage per second is the one I posted. I was nitpicking, but it's still a valid point.

  15. #35
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    Quote Originally Posted by Dammerung View Post
    This only worked when you got the UI3 cast time on Flare.

    ------

    With Convert up, your situational thing is wrong because convert gives back the same amount of MP (its % of max hp not current, and if you're below 20% why are you hitting convert in the first place).

    Flare>Convert>Fire2>SC Flare>Transpose

    Without a SCH in the party, just do Flare>Convert>SC Flare instead.
    Well again situational, if you're a robot, or using some kind of bot script to play, then you will probably hit Convert below 20%hp, and it won't do anything...if you're not a tool you will realize you're almost dead and use manawall/ward (whichever is applicable, or both if you're in a big clusterfk and not sure what is killing you (e.g. AK big pulls with the spark things that hit you with magic AND other mobs physically hitting you) instead of spamming convert to get the extra cast, put yourself at 1% hp or something dumb, and then die because you stole hate again.

  16. #36
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    I just said it is a bit misleading, not that it is totally wrong, of course. I, as most everyone that read that, understood what you meant: You spend 3 seconds casting Thunder II, you get 295 potency damage for your efforts, even if you have to wait 21 seconds to apply the next one. It's just that the "DPS" term is a bit incorrect there, as the ACTUAL damage per second is the one I posted. I was nitpicking, but it's still a valid point.
    Noted, I'll add a note to the OP, since guides are generally for newbs anyway, thanks.

  17. #37
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    I preface this with I don't have a 100% accurate source for UI3/AF3 potencies with detailed testing, but the numbers I see tossed around are largely +80% fire damage af3, -50% to opposing element in either.

    b3>f3>f2>flare>trans is then = 110+110+(100+260)*1.8*targets, or 220+648x every 12 sec, or (18.3 + 49.8x) pps. You're (maybe) capped by transpose as the rotation is~10.5 seconds, if you have to wait more than 1.5 seconds for the UI-1 tic then it'll be >12 sec

    b3>f3>f2 f2 f2 is = 110 + 110 + 3*100*1.8*targets, or 220+540x every 1.75+1.75+9 = ~13 seconds if you have to wait for the UI3 tic a bit, or (16.9 + 41x) pps
    If you add a freeze to this rotation, b3>fr>f3>f2 f2 f2, it's 220+640x every ~16sec or (13.75 + 40x) pps

    2nd rotation doesn't account for waiting on UI-1 tic as shouldn't hit 0 MP ever, but first rotation seems quite a bit better to me. 2nd w/ freeze won't have a ui3 tic wait where as 2nd w/out will, but unsure of the exact time - if it's ~2.5 seconds then w/ freeze should be better.

    Edit: If even if you count spellspeed, there is not a lot potential for the Fire2 based rotation to pull ahead of the flare based one - even though it is dependant on the transpose timer.

    Between 3-10 targets, the flare rotation is about 16-17% better than b3 f3 f2 f2 f2(with no wait for UI3 tic), you'd need about +350 speed to pull ahead of that difference - which is A) impossible currently and B) enough to do a B3 F3 f2 f2 Flare transpose rotation, allowing that to pull ahead again.

    Added bonus is if you have ballad up, you don't even need to transpose - b3 f3 flare ballad-tic b3 f3 flare can be cycled.

    So the reason I had freeze in here is because 1, added dmg instead of waiting on another tic, and 2, it's the same length cast as the other spell most blm's use after bliz3 in the single target rotation, thunder2, so in actuality you should be coming off the freeze and into the Fire3 cast almost exactly when you hit full mp (have to test this a little more to see the exact timing on it). but fire3>fire2>fire2>fire2>sc+flare>convert>fire2>bli z3>freeze> repeat is (110+((100x4)+260))*1.8*targets) + 110*(.5, added if the -50% dmg to spells cast under opposite element is correct)+(100*targets), so 155+1288x every 3.5+9+2.5+3+1.75+3=23~seconds (6.7+56x)dps, so it's subpar vs a single mob, but vs 3 mobs lets say the top formula is 18.3+49.8*3=167.7dps, where the longer rotation will be 174.7dps. Real difference here is, are the mobs dying REALLY fast (under 15 seconds or so) or are they taking 30+ seconds to die? And that's without taking into account the -50% dmg on your formula for wrong aspect spells, but taking it into account on mine.

    I know when I tank, kind of universally groups of mobs last long enough for Circle of Scorn to recharge, or nearly recharge, so 25~ seconds with like 99% of all parties in the game so far

  18. #38
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    updated OP

  19. #39
    Theory Fighter
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,344
    BG Level
    6
    FFXIV Character
    Frejan Schultz
    FFXIV Server
    Ragnarok
    FFXI Server
    Ragnarok

    Regarding AoE rotations: The more Flares, the better, the least time spent in UI, the better. So, putting this into practice, there's two very close rotations DPS wise you can do:

    1. Fire III > Swiftcast Flare > Transpose > (Fire III as soon as the first MP tick occurs > Flare > Transpose)*n
    2. Fire III > Swiftcast Flare > Transpose > (Fire III as soon as the first MP tick occurs > Fire II > Flare > Transpose)*n

    The first one will have some downtime between waiting for Transpose to be up and waiting for the MP tick, but will fit more Flares per time unit. In the second one, the Fire II allows for Transpose to be up every time, but makes the Flares come slightly slower.

    In theory, the second rotation should have enough time to complete before Transpose being up (3.5 s Fire III + 3 s Fire II + 4 s Flare + 0.5 s Transpose = 11 s), but since the time spent waiting for the MP tick counts towards the Transpose cooldown, it's usually up 1-2 seconds before Fire II finishes.

    I've parsed both rotations on the Coerthas training dummies for a while, and the results are so far inconclusive, as the DPS results, using ACT, still vary too much from test to test (about 5-10 minutes doing the rotation each test). I guess it's because of the small sample (4-5 data points on the central dummy, 3-4 data points on the sides dummies per Transpose), so I'll have to keep trying, to see if they even out at some moment.

    What seems clear to me is that, all the time spent using Fire II more than what's strictly necessary to wait for Transpose is lost DPS because a single Flare will already do more damage than 2 Fire IIs.

  20. #40
    CoP Dynamis
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    264
    BG Level
    4
    FFXIV Character
    Indomitable Will
    FFXIV Server
    Goblin
    FFXI Server
    Ifrit

    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    Regarding AoE rotations: The more Flares, the better, the least time spend in UI, the better. So, putting this into practice, there's two very close rotations DPS wise you can do:

    1. Fire III > Swiftcast Flare > Transpose > (Fire III as soon as the first MP tick occurs > Flare > Transpose)*n
    2. Fire III > Swiftcast Flare > Transpose > (Fire III as soon as the first MP tick occurs > Fire II > Flare > Transpose)*n

    The first one will have some downtime between waiting for Transpose to be up and waiting for the MP tick, but will fit more Flares per time unit. In the second one, the Fire II allows for Transpose to be up every time, but makes the Flares come slightly slower.

    In theory, the second rotation should have enough time to complete before Transpose being up (3.5 s Fire III + 3 s Fire II + 4 s Flare + 0.5 s Transpose = 11 s), but since the time spent waiting for the MP tick counts towards the Transpose cooldown, it's usually up 1-2 seconds before Fire II finishes.

    I've parsed both rotations on the Coerthas training dummies for a while, and the results are so far inconclusive, as the DPS results, using ACT, still vary too much from test to test (about 5-10 minutes doing the rotation each test). I guess it's because of the small sample (4-5 data points on the central dummy, 3-4 data points on the sides dummies per Transpose), so I'll have to keep trying, to see if they even out at some moment.

    What seems clear to me is that, all the time spent using Fire II more than what's strictly necessary to wait for Transpose is lost DPS because a single Flare will already do more damage than 2 Fire IIs.
    so I'm going to concur with this rotation with one addition, the use of convert whenever possible for back to back flares.

    just some napkin math here:

    Fire3>Swiftcast>Flare>Convert>Flare>Transpose>>(1 tic of mp)>Fire3>Flare
    is about 3.5s+.5(for the game to process that you used swiftcast)+2.5s(use convert during this cooldown)+4s+3~s+3.5s+4s=, about 21 seconds for that rotation, for a combined potency of 780x(1.8)+440, x=number of targets
    x=1=87dps
    x=2=154dps
    x=3=221dps
    without convert the dps is a little bit lower, but still significantly higher than the fire2 rotation, this also takes into account the maximum possible time you could spend waiting or 1 tic of MP from transpose, so in reality the dps will be slightly higher.

    for shorter bursts (stacked razor plumes in Garuda EX comes to mind)
    Fire3>Swiftcast>Flare>Convert>Flare:
    3.5s+.5s+2.5s+4s=11s~ casting/using abilities
    for a combined potency of 520x(1.8)+220,
    x=1=105dps
    x=2=190dps
    x=3=275dps
    which far outdoes anything else you can do, even on just 2 mobs.

    I put this in to practice last night by essentially soloing the stacked up plumes on Garuda EX with everyone stacked behind Garuda...and my blm is mid level geared lol, i78 allows the other dps to focus on garuda a lot more. I will edit the OP aoe section in a bit

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • Decrease Size
    Increase Size
  • Remove Text Formatting
  • Insert Link Insert Image Insert Video
  • Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
  • Insert NSFW Tag
  • Insert Spoiler Tag