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  1. #61
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    Transpose is off the GCD, sometimes I hit it so fast after swiftcast Flare that I end up going into UI1 before the AF3 from Flare applies (which is extremely bad bad bad so I lately delay the Transpose a bit just to avoid that).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinryu View Post
    My opener and rotations left out Convert/Ether because that's something that can make any rotation stronger, and will not be up always. A rotation should be something repeatable. In Turn 4 for example, Convert's cooldown is too long to use on both AOE phases. I personally don't use it on either unless DPS is slow; I prefer using it to extend my single target damage instead.


    Sorry, I'm out of town and can't check, but is Transpose on GCD? I could swear I use it immediately after every Flare, even Switfcasted, but I apologize if that was incorrect on my part.

    Not sure where I said Transpose (or Swiftcast) were on GCD, I said there was a small wait for the action to actually take effect (.5seconds or so), since I know every time i use transpose, SC, Convert, it takes a split second for it to register. the GCD activation for Swiftflare, is from the Flare, since that is a GCD spell, so .5 seconds for SC to activate and 2.5seconds for the Flare GCD, even though it's an instant cast.

    I agree. These rotations were based on the premise something would live long enough for them to actually be rotated, such as Turn 4. You could say the same of Flare > Convert > Flare, it's "only" useful for things that will die fast. It's all situational; there is no end all be all rotation; that should be obvious.

    So I didn't get a chance to update the OP eysterday, but I will at some point today, and will specify that multi-flares is really only situationally useful for stuff that dies in 1-2 shots (plumes), and even then, only 2 flares should be needed, I'll add in the Fire2x3 (or 4?? can anyone get off 4 consistently, i was the other day, but i may have had ballad on, idr) rotation as well, since it is consistently higher without convert or swiftcast up, and only goes up if you are able to add in double flares at the end (as we both stated)


    The MP ticks always come every three seconds. Even when you're in AF, it's still on the same 3 second timer giving you 0 MP. The first one is uncertain, but beyond that you can know exactly when it's coming.

    So the MP tick from transpose in the multi-flare AoE rotation is only waiting on that 1st tick, spamming the fire3 button as soon as you hit transpose. that 1st tick is all that counts, and it most certainly not always 3 seconds, and completely dependant on when you hit transpose as compared to where the global 3 second tic timer is at. Again, 1 tic of mp is all you need, waiting for anything beyond that is pointless for multi-flares.

    Also to the naysayer, if you don't like the guide, either don't use it, or critique what you don't like, otherwise you're worthless as a person.

  3. #63
    Kevin Chang
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    Shitposting not allowed here. If you have a problem with something, you're free to express it, but you need to back it up. Unless someone who doesn't understand XIV, like me, can see why it's obviously dumb, you need to slap them down with Ninety-Five Theses of text about why they are dumb.

    Also you are not allowed to shitpost just because it's in response to shitposting. Use the report button.

  4. #64
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    In addition to the shit posting: Guys, stay on topic in here. If you don't have something relevant to the guide then don't post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonomaa View Post
    Please keep all random discussion in the discussion forum, this is not the place for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonomaa View Post
    Once again there is a no tolerance rule in effect for bullshit. Waste our time and we will not hesitate to remove you from our presence.
    Next person to post in here that isn't on topic gets a longer infraction for testing the patience of the mod team.

  5. #65
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    Is the turn 5 black Mage weapon strictly better than the zenith weapon? It seems like it, just wanted to make sure.

  6. #66
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    By itself, they're pretty close depending on the exact weights you choose to assign to damage/int/speed/det etc, but you get a shield - any non-ridiculous shield option (aka, allagan buckler or darksteel buckler) will tip it over well into allagan's favor.

  7. #67
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    Radec
    By itself, they're pretty close depending on the exact weights you choose to assign to damage/int/speed/det etc, but you get a shield - any non-ridiculous shield option (aka, allagan buckler or darksteel buckler) will tip it over well into allagan's favor. .Today 02:14Jesifromgaruda
    Is the turn 5 black Mage weapon strictly better than the zenith weapon? It seems like it, just wanted to make sure. .
    Yes it's strictly better, the base damage alone brings it 2 points higher than the ilvl90 weapons. the extra stats added on from the primal shield are just icing on the cake. There is no debate on this.

  8. #68
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    Also for damage, I personally choose the primal staff over the zenith, more DTR, and added crit rate, losing spell speed is meh, because a lot of the other gear has SS on it, gaining a good chunk of DTR, and huge chunk of crit rate is huge...albeit not everyone has a group that can consistently kill all of the primals, so if that's the case zenith is really the only option.

  9. #69
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    updated the OP with the Fire2 Aoe rotation finally (been busy...and lazy), going to add that BiS listing to the gear thread since nobody has voiced any objections...speak now or forever hold your peace

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indomitable Will View Post
    Yes it's strictly better, the base damage alone brings it 2 points higher than the ilvl90 weapons. the extra stats added on from the primal shield are just icing on the cake. There is no debate on this.
    Initial disclaimer - I am in no way saying "keep using zenith over allagan", but stats alone if you don't use a shield, zenith is better.

    Based on the stat weights I've been using, 1d~=4int, 0.25int~=1speed, 0.2int~=1det (From https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TDVkM1E#gid=50)

    If you don't need the acc on allagan, the effective INT ratings on each:

    Allagan = 71*4 + 24 + 19*0.25 = 312.75 eINT
    Zenith = 69*4 + 31 + 37*0.25 + 18*0.2 = 319.85 eINT

    So, weapon alone, zenith is 'better', but the shield stats will always be more than ~7eINT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indomitable Will View Post
    Also for damage, I personally choose the primal staff over the zenith, more DTR, and added crit rate, losing spell speed is meh, because a lot of the other gear has SS on it, gaining a good chunk of DTR, and huge chunk of crit rate is huge...albeit not everyone has a group that can consistently kill all of the primals, so if that's the case zenith is really the only option.
    Same stat weighting page makes me stick with zenith over elder - if you can manage to cast fairly consistantly, speed will be worth more than the extra crit/det.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    Initial disclaimer - I am in no way saying "keep using zenith over allagan", but stats alone if you don't use a shield, zenith is better.

    Based on the stat weights I've been using, 1d~=4int, 0.25int~=1speed, 0.2int~=1det (From https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...TDVkM1E#gid=50)

    If you don't need the acc on allagan, the effective INT ratings on each:

    Allagan = 71*4 + 24 + 19*0.25 = 312.75 eINT
    Zenith = 69*4 + 31 + 37*0.25 + 18*0.2 = 319.85 eINT


    So, weapon alone, zenith is 'better', but the shield stats will always be more than ~7eINT.



    Same stat weighting page makes me stick with zenith over elder - if you can manage to cast fairly consistantly, speed will be worth more than the extra crit/det.
    yes, but you would also not use the allagan weapon by itself at all...put a darklight shield or GC shield into the mix instead of primal and see what you come up with.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indomitable Will View Post
    yes, but you would also not use the allagan weapon by itself at all...put a darklight shield or GC shield into the mix instead of primal and see what you come up with.
    Which is exactly what I said. Allagan+(Ancient or Darksteel Buckler) > Zenith > Allagan alone.

    GC shields or Darklight shield aren't enough to move allagan ahead.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    also this, the last update is dated 12/18/2013, there has been significant discussion beyond that date regarding errors in the damage formula for blm, all over reddit, (edit: in the forum linked in that doc there isn't a whole lot of formula work done compared to other forums...that forum is primarly about thunder vs thunder2) .after looking at that doc compared to everyone elses actual math and evidence, I disagree with it.

  14. #74
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    which is pointless though, nobody is using allagan by itself...if you have allagan you at least can buy a GC shield, which would at the very elast even it out...and if you have a Allagan wpn, you sure as heck can get a DL shield, and very likely a primal shield.

  15. #75
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    Saying that is great and all, but until you have a source, some math, or any testing at all to go on, relatively meaningless. As I'm showing there, with those stat weights, you'd hurt your damage by swapping to a Allagan+GC shield as you say.

  16. #76
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    this one is outdated, but I can't find the one I was using, and I think the formula is the same: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...gstat_weights/

    TL;DR:I think the DET number was bumped up recently in the thread I'm trying to find. and I'm not sure if he updated the weights when he last updated the formula

    (Potency/100) x [0.00587517 x INT x WD + 0.077076 x INT + 0.074377 x DET].

    1 INT = 0.18 WD = 6.78 DET = 6.29 CRT = 2.06 ACC = 4.91 SPD.

    and the reddit post noted in your google doc states that both of his hypothetical character builds get a different number of casts in 60 seconds, but the real number is the same (he says he rounded down, but he really rounded up...which is not possible when you are dealing with real, whole numbers, you either get 25 casts or 26 casts, there is no 25.5 casts, and if the numbers come out to 25.5 casts, then you only had 25 casts...etc)

  17. #77
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    it also doesn't take into account that if you are using allagan wpn, you can take gear off of another slot that has ACC on it, and replace it with SS or Crit or DET. which is the whole point, that is best in slot, as a whole build, obviously if you don't have it all you have to make concessions elsewhere.

  18. #78
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    My main gripe with Spell Speed is that the only real advantage of it is when you are completely static. If you need to be constantly casting for, let's say, 30 seconds to get ahead 1 spell over other sets, then it is pointless most of the time, because the moment you have to move and interrupt a cast (dodging something, reposition, whatever), the casting race is reset, as you start casting at the same time as the non-spell speed build.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taim Meich View Post
    My main gripe with Spell Speed is that the only real advantage of it is when you are completely static. If you need to be constantly casting for, let's say, 30 seconds to get ahead 1 spell over other sets, then it is pointless most of the time, because the moment you have to move and interrupt a cast (dodging something, reposition, whatever), the casting race is reset, as you start casting at the same time as the non-spell speed build.
    agreed, and with the vast majority of builds you already have a decent amount of SS, and gearing any more than that is only going to give you diminishing returns. instead of getting an extra cast every 45 or 60 seconds, it becomes 75 and 90 seconds. and the whole" you can get a spell off before landslide or gaol hits you" thing is moot, I do that now with a non-SS build, it's 99% about timing your casts with the moves of the target, and 1% spellspeed lol

  20. #80
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    The "you only gain a cast every XX seconds" is the same argument that was used against xi's haste builds back in 2005 - it all comes down to the window size.

    If you can only cast 25.5 spells in a minute instead of 25, you can also say that a speedless build only casts 24 full spells in 58.8 seconds where a speed build gets 25, the fact remains that speed = more spells in less time.

    Have to dodge? Scathe as you move.
    Mob is away/invulnerable? Time a freeze/blizz2 to land as it repops.

    Take any time of not-casting, and turn it into casting - naturally good advice always, but it's even more meaningful when weighted into a spellspeed build.

    If your playstyle doesn't support that, gear for it, but don't argue best stat != best stat

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