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  1. #21

    You generally shouldn't be doing more than 2 Fulls between each Chaos.

    After using a Chaos combo the DoT only takes 3 ticks (~10s) to overcome a Full combo's damage. Basically, you can do another Chaos combo any time Chaos Thrust's DoT is 20s or less without any loss in damage potential*.

    There's rarely a good reason to be cutting it close with Disembowel to try and get in as many Full Thrusts as possible because Full Thrust combos are simply not very far ahead of Chaos Thrust combos in the short term and definitely not in the long term and trying to do can risk Disembowel dropping. If that happens even for a few moments you've lost much more potential damage than the extra Full Thrusts might have contributed.

    *situational factors like the need for immediate VS DoT damage or times when the mob won't survive for more than a few seconds notwithstanding, just as well when Life Surge is up you should be looking to Full Thrust asap to make full use of it (using it with a Power Surged Jump is also an option)

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You generally shouldn't be doing more than 2 Fulls between each Chaos.)
    Co-signed.

    You should always have two Fulls between Chaos Thrusts. Also, if a mob will only last long enough for two combos, it is still your best option to do IDC > TTT (and of course whichever HT/Ph goes between depending on your timers).

    I've never tried to cram a bunch of Full Thrusts into BfB coverage, as it still makes more sense to buff your IDC than Full spamming. EMX did the math on this junk on official forums.

  3. #23
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    I offered to help our Dragoon pick up his DPS, but the problem lies in the fact I don't play Dragoon, so other than telling him to read the RR thread on the main forums I'm not really sure what to tell him. I think someone taught him a rotation from there and have a feeling he is just not doing it, and pressing other shit. As BRD I'm about 4 ivls above him and w/mechanics and songs do about 350 on turn 8, he was 300. I wonder if maybe one of you can't see what I could look into further by looking at his skill/ability breakdown during the fight. I apologize if this simply doesn't do anything to help you understand if he is farting or shitting etc.


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhlitoraal View Post
    I offered to help our Dragoon pick up his DPS, but the problem lies in the fact I don't play Dragoon, so other than telling him to read the RR thread on the main forums I'm not really sure what to tell him. I think someone taught him a rotation from there and have a feeling he is just not doing it, and pressing other shit. As BRD I'm about 4 ivls above him and w/mechanics and songs do about 350 on turn 8, he was 300. I wonder if maybe one of you can't see what I could look into further by looking at his skill/ability breakdown during the fight. I apologize if this simply doesn't do anything to help you understand if he is farting or shitting etc.

    First of all is he doing mechanics? What is his actual ilvl? What weapon does he have currently? Does he focus on proper stat weights? ( He could be one of the dumb shit DRGs that believe Crit > DET )

    Beyond those questions it's hard to tell off the pie chart, if you could give a full break down on all his abilities used and #of auto attacks I could give a better assessment. But based on what you have given I can assume a few things, he's losing Auto Attacks as they should be a higher % of your damage ( this is based on looking at my own parses ). He also looks to be dropping Phlebotomize and Heavy Thrust too often. Also his Full Thrust % seems high in comparison to mine, which could lead me to believe he is prioritizing that too much. Keeping Phelbotomize, CT, and HT up 100% is far more important then spamming FT combos. Remember this is just a brief comparison, it's hard to tell based on the information you've given. Would need full break down of all the # of times he uses abilities and such or videos.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthonystar View Post
    First of all is he doing mechanics? What is his actual ilvl? What weapon does he have currently? Does he focus on proper stat weights? ( He could be one of the dumb shit DRGs that believe Crit > DET )

    Beyond those questions it's hard to tell off the pie chart, if you could give a full break down on all his abilities used and #of auto attacks I could give a better assessment. But based on what you have given I can assume a few things, he's losing Auto Attacks as they should be a higher % of your damage ( this is based on looking at my own parses ). He also looks to be dropping Phlebotomize and Heavy Thrust too often. Also his Full Thrust % seems high in comparison to mine, which could lead me to believe he is prioritizing that too much. Keeping Phelbotomize, CT, and HT up 100% is far more important then spamming FT combos. Remember this is just a brief comparison, it's hard to tell based on the information you've given. Would need full break down of all the # of times he uses abilities and such or videos.
    Firstly, I really appreciate the time. His ilvl is either 100 or 101, he has a weathered liberator atm. He does no mechanics, possibly 1-2 towers during pushing the aoe after a AF. I believe he is gearing properly from my memory. I will try and see if I can get a turn 8 video up this upcoming week. As far as the numbers outside of the graph this is what I had, thanks again for your time:


  6. #26
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    I wanted to find something comparable DPS wise so the top one is from Titan Ex from 2.1 in ilvl 90 gear w/ Allagan Spear.

    So what I've highlighted might be the issue....

    In blue you can see that he is using Phlebotomize almost too much in the 10:24 of the fight. It was actually double of what I did in a 8:08 min fight. The strange thing is his dot ticks are less then mine. That makes me assume that he is clipping his dots and also letting them fall off as oppose to applying them as they fall off.

    In green you can see a similar issue with the # of chaos thrusts he is doing. He looks to be keeping Disembowel up and the Chaos Thrust dot up, but it's constantly clipping by the looks of it. It's even more then double the Chaos Thrusts I did over a 8:08 min fight but yet his DPS is lower.

    So by the looks of it he is wasting a lot of GCD, clipping his DoTs too early, and also letting the dots fall off.

    Edit: He needs to be Full thrusting more is what I mean by wasting GCD

  7. #27
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    Thank you so much for your time and insight, really appreciate it.

  8. #28

    You need to be clipping Chaos Thrust or you're letting Disembowel drop.

    As long as Chaos Thrust has been up for at least 3 tics, the combo has outpaced the damage of a Full Thrust combo.

    Full = 150 + 200 + 330 = 680
    Chaos = 180 + 220 + 200 = 600 + (30x10) [3 tics = 690]

    That said, it doesn't mean you should be reapplying Chaos every 10s, but if your Chaos thrust direct damage and DoT damage are equal then it implies that you're using Chaos ~every 20s, which is more than enough time to have received it's full benefit, and it means you're not allowing Disembowel to drop which is just as if not more important.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You need to be clipping Chaos Thrust or you're letting Disembowel drop.

    As long as Chaos Thrust has been up for at least 3 tics, the combo has outpaced the damage of a Full Thrust combo.

    Full = 150 + 200 + 330 = 680
    Chaos = 180 + 220 + 200 = 600 + (30x10) [3 tics = 690]

    That said, it doesn't mean you should be reapplying Chaos every 10s, but if your Chaos thrust direct damage and DoT damage are equal then it implies that you're using Chaos ~every 20s, which is more than enough time to have received it's full benefit, and it means you're not allowing Disembowel to drop which is just as if not more important.
    I agree for the most part, but following the optimal rotation myself, with 506 SS, my disembowels and chaos thrusts all get reapplied right as they tic from 1s to 0, so there should be very marginal clipping or downtime with lower ss.

    On another note, i'm trying to decide how to split stats on my Novus, was thinking 22 ACC, 22 Crit, 31 DET, what do you guys think or are doing for yours?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    You need to be clipping Chaos Thrust or you're letting Disembowel drop.

    As long as Chaos Thrust has been up for at least 3 tics, the combo has outpaced the damage of a Full Thrust combo.

    Full = 150 + 200 + 330 = 680
    Chaos = 180 + 220 + 200 = 600 + (30x10) [3 tics = 690]

    That said, it doesn't mean you should be reapplying Chaos every 10s, but if your Chaos thrust direct damage and DoT damage are equal then it implies that you're using Chaos ~every 20s, which is more than enough time to have received it's full benefit, and it means you're not allowing Disembowel to drop which is just as if not more important.
    Hence why I said he is clipping his DoTs too early. I never said dont clip.

  11. #31

    His Chaos thrust direct damage and DoT damage are equal, that means he's clipping CT at around 6-7 tics, which is no loss in overall damage compared to Full Thrust (only a loss in immediate damage).

  12. #32
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    You can have a total of 10 ticks from a CT ( in a perfect situation ) why would you clip it until the 9-10 tick? Clipping at 6-7 ticks is losing between 60-120 potency. Even with base GCD on DRG you should be able to use 12 GCD abilities before having to use CT again. Your previous example is terrible regardless....

    Full = 150 + 200 + 330 = 680
    Chaos = 180 + 220 + 200 = 600 + (30x10) [3 tics = 690]
    If you're in any situation where CT dot is not applied, why the hell would you be FT comboing? You have to look at it as this...

    FT combo = 150 + 200 + 330 = 680 + ( FT combo takes 7.5 sec or rounded down to 2 tics ) 60

    vs

    CT combo = 180 + 220 + 200 = 600 + ( CT combo takes 7.5 sec ) 60 = 660

    As a DRG is should be implied that you're maximizing your dots as they should all be applied before you even consider using FT, to maximize the value of FT. It's very simple to keep this rotation as you should be able to fit in 2 FT combos + at least 1 HT ( sometimes 2 ) + 1 Phelb ( sometimes 2 ) between every CT combo and that still leaves you room for the 2 abilities leading into CT. You should be starting to reapply CT combo at 5-6 sec remaining on Disembowel as the GCD and animation takes time to apply the effect.

    Full opening rotation should be (not including off-GCD )...

    HT > CT combo > Phelb > FT Combo > HT > FT Combo > Phelb > CT combo .....

    From that point on it should follow a priority of...

    1. HT
    2. CT combo ( needs to be started at about 5 seconds of Disembowl falling )
    3. Phelb
    4. FT combo

    Anyone not doing that is losing damage.

  13. #33
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    says the rotation on the first page of this guide
    heavy>ct>phleb>full
    heavy>full>phleb>ct
    heavy>full>phleb>full
    repeat

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fondue View Post
    says the rotation on the first page of this guide
    heavy>ct>phleb>full
    heavy>full>phleb>ct
    heavy>full>phleb>full
    repeat
    Of course, but he was implying that you should be using CT after 6-7 tics is a loss of DPS.

    Edit: Or as least that's how I read it.

  15. #35
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    What Anthonystar posted should be pretty helpful and answer most of your questions. You could post the damage graph/timeline or whatever it's called, it's a nice way to see where things might be wrong aside from the pie chart. 300 with i100-101 and a Weathered Liberator seems really on the low end while doing one tower. Maybe he's not using X-Potions for example.

    Bunch of mistakes during the fight (T8) but it should give you an idea of what it should look like kinda:

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kicoe View Post
    What Anthonystar posted should be pretty helpful and answer most of your questions. You could post the damage graph/timeline or whatever it's called, it's a nice way to see where things might be wrong aside from the pie chart. 300 with i100-101 and a Weathered Liberator seems really on the low end while doing one tower. Maybe he's not using X-Potions for example.

    Bunch of mistakes during the fight (T8) but it should give you an idea of what it should look like kinda:
    Yeah I'm trying to soak it all in to make it as clear as possible. Seeing as how my DRG is only 35 I wouldn't to ask your opinions, sadly because I feel like I can't expect for him to seek out help on his own. That being said I really do appreciate anything/everything that has been and will be posted, it's a lot more valuable than I can give credit for.

    I apologize for the extra lines/stats not sure how to make it show simply the ones you have, but nonetheless you can still see it, just slightly more obscured. I will say it seems like he drops off all together a few times, what I can only guess is he pulled an AF back a bit until it was 100% that the HM tether was pulled away before rejoining the group. There is no way it happened more than once though, and it dips like 3 times. Still though, his DPS seems far too low for his ilvl at least imo, if i'm wrong i'd be glad to hear it, but from all I've gathered he should be doing quite a bit more.


  17. #37
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    Sup loldrgs. I don't play dragoon but I know how to read ACT graphs. Here's what you're missing:

    1) He's used Chaos Thrust more than Full Thrust. Forget about edge cases of clipping, this is a no-no.

    2) He is using a ton of raw disembowels and chaos thrust. 23 impulse drives, 41 disembowels and 40 chaos thrusts. This is reflected in his average disembowel and chaos thrust initial hit damage being much lower than his average impulse drive/true thrust damage. It should be the other way around, like in Anthonystar's parse. Raw disembowel/chaos thrust is also a no-no.

    3) His Heavy Thrusts suck. He is missing the flank bonus on that shit a lot. Again, you can see this is reflected in his average Heavy Thrust damage being weaker than his average True Thrust and even weaker than his average auto-attack. In Anthonystar's parse, his Heavy Thrusts do approximately the same damage as his Phleb initial hits and both are above True Thrust--this is what it should look like, since both are 170 potency and True Thrust is 150.

    4) Finally, I don't think he's using his cooldowns on cooldown, but the majority of his lack of damage can be explained by points 1, 2, and 3.

    There's also weird stuff like how his average phleb initial hit is so low even though there's no positional bonus on it to fuck up, but his average leg sweep is ok. I'm guessing he's improperly managing HT/Disembowel uptime and/or getting some lucky crits on the wrong skills here and there. But at least he's using his potent poisoning potions. Because we all know those bad boys are going to make or break a fight. (Ignore this, I have a personal vendetta against the usage of PPPs)

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    There's also weird stuff like how his average phleb initial hit is so low even though there's no positional bonus on it to fuck up, but his average leg sweep is ok. I'm guessing he's improperly managing HT/Disembowel uptime and/or getting some lucky crits on the wrong skills here and there. But at least he's using his potent poisoning potions. Because we all know those bad boys are going to make or break a fight. (Ignore this, I have a personal vendetta against the usage of PPPs)
    Thanks for the extra insight. Certainly not as good as diagnosing from the graph as I probably should and could be. As far as the PPP go, I tend to agree, especially at this point in coil.

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