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  1. #1
    RIDE ARMOR
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    i70 DPS accessories for Tanks

    I have not leveled my tanking jobs to 50 yet and most likely won't use them in group play even when I do. Just not my thing. However, I'm very interested in stat theory, and I got to thinking about reusing i70 crafted/melded DPS accessories for a tank, because they come with STR and DEX, and you can just meld in VIT. Whereas tank i80/90 pieces are VIT only. And i70 crafted tank accessories aren't as effective as DPS ones when you try to max out STR and DEX via melding.

    So, the difference in VIT between an i70 HQ and i90 accessory is 5. That's a total of 25 VIT (375 hp) across all 5 slots. However, for each i70 piece, you'd get 9 DEX and 9 STR, a total of 45 of each with all 5 slots. STR and DEX help with block/parry effectiveness and activation rate, but only slightly. I've read up on testers identifying stat tiers where these are pushed up by 1%. It is safe to assume then that you'd hit 1 and possibly 2 1% tiers of amount blocked/parried and activation rates from the STR and DEX, as well as deal more damage/threat/self heals.

    Whereas the stat Parry seems to be around .077% Parry rate per point, with no tiers, according to a reddit source. So 13 Parry = ~1% activation rate, if the source is to be believed.



    I'm trying to guage the opinion Tanks about this i90 set (picked bc of maximum Parry and decent acc):

    Allagan Earrings, Allagan Ring, Hero's Ring, Allagan Choker, and Hero's Bracelet

    VIT: 75
    Parry: 80
    Acc: 38
    Crit: 11
    SkillSpd: 11

    Vs

    This set:

    Gryphonskin Ringx2, Choker, & Bracelet, Rose Gold Ear Screws. Each melded to have 10 VIT (1x IV, 1x II), 12 Parry (2x III), and 1 other tier III materia.

    STR: 45
    DEX: 45
    VIT: 50
    Acc: 57
    Parry: 60
    Det: 28
    Crit: 18
    SkillSpd: 18

    The VIT/Parry melding can be achieved with just 4 materia. Each piece could hold 1 more materia providing a little more crti/det/skillspd/acc. If it were me, I'd probably make them be 2 det III's and 3 crit III's. Acc is capped or nearly capped already on these items and I think SkillSpd would just make you burn through TP a little faster. But I'm no tank, just a guy working a theory.


    You can build these i70 accessories pretty easily (albeit pricey) compared to farming the i90 drops and myth tomes, get some great accuracy in the process, and amp Parry/DEX enough that they should be able to match the Parry/Block rate of the best i90 Parry accessories. Meanwhile you'll block/parry a tiny bit more damage, dish out a little more hate, and deal a little more damage because of +45 STR. Which incidentally, also ends the fights a little faster and helps your party's DPS make the grade whenever they're checked. When using WAR abilities that heal based on damage dealt, you'd also recover a little more hp because of the STR.


    So the actual comparison is 25 VIT, 20 Parry VS 45 STR, 45 DEX, 19 Acc, 28 Det, 7 crit, 7 SkillSpd. If you keep in mind that the Dex should have about the same effect as the Parry, then all your really comparing from the i90's is 25 VIT.

    There are a lot of ways you can mitigate damage/lessen required healing- whether by self healing, killing faster, natural hp ticks stemming from VIT, or blocking/parrying. And the bottom line of course is the time you survive coming below 375 hp is the time 25 VIT wins hands down.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    CoP Dynamis
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    Shit is situational?

  3. #3
    Ridill
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    Sath Fenrir
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    Shit is definitely situational.

    If you're tanking and DPS doesn't matter at all: Fending i90
    If you're tanking and DPS matters but you still take high spike damage: i90 Fending
    If you're tanking and DPS matters but you still take moderate spike damage: i70
    If you're tanking and DPS matters and you don't take high spike damage: Maiming / Striking / Slaying i90
    If you're off-tanking: Maiming / Striking / Slaying i90

  4. #4
    Professional Lurker
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    Pretty much what Sath said. I posted a similiar question not too long ago about reallocating stats + accessories to do do STR WAR. It's very successful if you know how to time CDs and have good healers to back you up. I believe when I have all STR accessories (combo of i70 and 90) with defiance on I'm sitting at 6.9kish HP, which appears to be fine for most everything. On Titan ex I didn't dip below 2k HP ever and I even OT'd T4 without any hiccups. I do use VIT on Ifrit though because fuck that back-to-back-to-back incinerate

  5. #5

    I don't think this game requires that much, if any, investment in Situational builds.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkaine23 View Post
    So what it comes down to is a comparison of 45 STR and 20 det (and most likely some accuracy too) vs 25 VIT (375 hp). I think 1-2% more damage blocked/parried is probably more useful than those hp.
    This doesn't make sense to me but I'm not sure I'm understanding it correctly. Clearly if the boss does mostly magical or unblockable/unparryable damage (T2, Ultima HM) vitality is superior than parry. If the correct metric of tanking statistics is "how much damage can you take before dying" does the following comparison make sense?

    Assume ZERO existing mitigation.
    375 HP means HP+375 damage you can take before dying.
    2% more damage reduction means HP/.98 damage you can take before dying.
    In order for 2% mitigation to equal 375 HP, you must have 375 = ((HP)/.98 - HP). That comes out to 18375 base HP. Assuming zero other mitigation. In reality Defiance/Shield Oath pushes more weight onto just adding VIT, because VIT scales with those bonuses.

    Also, unless something changed, I was under the impression that a tank's DET does not affect heals received.

  7. #7
    RIDE ARMOR
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    I suppose its a good point in that block/parry mitigation applies to physical attacks only.

    I don't know about det. I haven't seen any good testing on it. By its description I'd assume your det effects how much you are healed for and that it'd be decent for tanks to have. Even if determination is a wash, there are skills that heal based on damage dealt (STR & det & acc all contribute to that).

    Doing more damage also shortens the fight, resulting in less damage taken.


    You say 18375 base hp. Do you mean that you have to take 18375 damage before 2% mitigation outweighs the extra hp? Because you might have 6-8k hp, but you're being cured constantly in a fight.

  8. #8
    D. Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkaine23 View Post
    By its description I'd assume your det effects how much you are healed for and that it'd be decent for tanks to have.
    This is still going around? No. No. Nooooooooooooooooooooo no no no.

    Determination is basically just a sliver of STR/DEX/MND/INT (a.k.a. +damage and +healing) all in one stat.



    Also, what Sath said, though if you don't already have the melded accessories, I'm not sure I'd recommend dumping the cash into them anymore. We know iLv is going to go up in a month or so, so they may be completely obsolete at that point, and they can get pretty pricey depending on how much you meld 'em.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkaine23 View Post
    By its description I'd assume your det effects how much you are healed for and that it'd be decent for tanks to have. Doing more damage also shortens the fight, resulting in less damage taken.
    I thought you had done some super secret new research. But if you're just going by the description, then no. DET only affects your output, not input. The fact that it says healing in the description means it applies to healers' healing output and not tanks' healing received.

    Essentially it boils down to VIT for tanking, STR for damage. Yes, i70 accessories outperform i90 tanking accessories for the purpose of DPS. No, i70 accessories do not outperform i90 tanking accessories for the purpose of tanking. You need to ask yourself, from a design standpoint, why you ever thought an item at the highest budget cap designed for tanking would be anything but the best for tanking. If you want to go 30 STR/all STR accessories/mega pot of STR/raging strikes MRD and go to town with that 400 DPS burst on that bitch Chirada by all means be my guest (and I highly recommend it). But in FFXIV's system VIT is the end-all stat for tanking for the scaling reasons I mentioned above.

  10. #10
    A. Body
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    Sath nailed it. Ideally you'll have an i90 VIT build and an i90 STR build. Hybrid builds don't fit in this game. The closest I'll come to a Hybrid is swapping in i90 VIT gear with DET/CRIT instead of parry. (ex. Garuda tank ring (11det/11crit) instead of Hero's/Titan's earring (8det) instead of Allagan) I definitely wouldn't spend any gil on Melding.

  11. #11
    CoP Dynamis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    Clearly if the boss does mostly magical or unblockable/unparryable damage (T2, Ultima HM)
    If you still NEED more VIT or parry on those 2 pieces of content, time to re-learn tank job, or get new healers.

  12. #12
    CoP Dynamis
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    On the OP topic, I wouldn't swap out for crafted honestly, if you're doing content where you need high HP and parry, you likely need it for a reason, and need as much as you can get in most cases (t5...and um, solo-tanking Titan HM? and extreme primals in general for "oh sh!t" moments), for about everything else, if you're PLD is i80~ or above, and you have some random DPS accessories (read: i90 accessories), and don't need 7k~ hp (PLD), then swap out for more mitigation/dps. personally for everything other tahn t5, my set has allagan striking ear, garuda fending ring, and another allagan str ring and i sit at like 6400~ hp in party, in particular if we are doing something with solo-heals, like garuda EX, throw on onion shield and break a tier of block on strength so that you're at 21% instead of 20%, makes you a lot less spikey...but that's mostly that shield doing that, not really the +1% blocked dmg....btw, because of that, I like onion shield a lot more now, still not going to use break blade because it looks like a turd on a stick, but the shield is nice.

  13. #13
    Old Odin
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    Can rock full DPS/30STR for everything except Ifrit EX (no real point), solo tank Titan EX I guess, and probably MT T5.

  14. #14
    CoP Dynamis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    Can rock full DPS/30STR for everything except Ifrit EX (no real point), solo tank Titan EX I guess, and probably MT T5.
    agreed, and even then, On ifrit EX I only NEED 7k hp when the random PUG OT lets me get to 5 stacks AND 1/2 healers are dead lol.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indomitable Will View Post
    If you still NEED more VIT or parry on those 2 pieces of content, time to re-learn tank job, or get new healers.
    I hope you're quoting me for context, and not correcting me, because you conveniently left out the last part of my sentence (vitality is superior than parry [on incoming damage which is unparryable]) which was in response to the claim that "1-2% more damage blocked/parried is probably more useful than those hp" and not a claim that "VIT is better than STR."

    In fact, I can turn this around on you and say

    If you think your 30 STR/DPS accessories build on your -20%/-25% damage tank is contributing significantly to your clear time then get new DPS.

    I don't need 7k HP on my tank either, but if the goal is trying to speed encounters up, instead of going with a trainwreck of mismatched accessories and burning two keeper's hymns every time I needed to MT something, why not just go all the way and play on my DPS alt. I don't need 7K HP for this content. -> In fact, I don't need shield oath/defiance for this content. -> In fact I don't need to play my tank class at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for full DPS builds on tanks. But I'm not going to pretend that it's not trading durability for damage. The claim that tanks don't need 7k HP is true but so is the claim that tanks don't need more DPS than what's already provided in their base toolkit.

  16. #16
    CoP Dynamis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    I hope you're quoting me for context, and not correcting me, because you conveniently left out the last part of my sentence (vitality is superior than parry [on incoming damage which is unparryable]) which was in response to the claim that "1-2% more damage blocked/parried is probably more useful than those hp" and not a claim that "VIT is better than STR."

    In fact, I can turn this around on you and say

    If you think your 30 STR/DPS accessories build on your -20%/-25% damage tank is contributing significantly to your clear time then get new DPS.

    I don't need 7k HP on my tank either, but if the goal is trying to speed encounters up, instead of going with a trainwreck of mismatched accessories and burning two keeper's hymns every time I needed to MT something, why not just go all the way and play on my DPS alt. I don't need 7K HP for this content. -> In fact, I don't need shield oath/defiance for this content. -> In fact I don't need to play my tank class at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for full DPS builds on tanks. But I'm not going to pretend that it's not trading durability for damage. The claim that tanks don't need 7k HP is true but so is the claim that tanks don't need more DPS than what's already provided in their base toolkit.
    It was more for context, not corercting you at all, just saying the extra vit AND parry is worthless on most content. also, was not saying that the DPS boost is all that great either lol, because it's not, but it's better than extra survivability that you literally have 0 use for in the majority of content.

  17. #17
    CoP Dynamis
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    also, the "i don't need to play tank for this content" doesn't always work, you always need at least 1 tank, and if you're the best option available (i.e. it will be easier to get a better DPs than a better tank), then you're going to be the tank.

  18. #18
    Ridill
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    There's zero reason to not do as much damage as you can.

    Period.

    End of story.

    If you're not taxing your healers by wearing DPS accessories and you're still refusing to do it you are bad. Bad. Bad bad bad.

    Bad.

  19. #19
    CoP Dynamis
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    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    There's zero reason to not do as much damage as you can.

    Period.

    End of story.

    If you're not taxing your healers by wearing DPS accessories and you're still refusing to do it you are bad. Bad. Bad bad bad.

    Bad.
    ^this

  20. #20
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    On the flip side, if you ever wipe the group because you refused to wear your VIT accessories so that you could put out that sick nasty extra 20 dps, you are also bad.