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  1. #1
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    Summoning Skill and conversion: How does it work exactely?

    Following a small discussion which took place a few weeks ago, I'd love to expand on it.
    Thanks to Indalecia for finding the original Patch notes post HERE.
    Alllow me to quote SE:

    Blood Pact will now receive different effects when the value added by equipment or merit points exceeds the skill cap for that level.
    *Players can experience increased accuracy when using Blood Pact: Rage or lengthened effect durations when using Blood Pact: Ward. The length of the duration increased varies depending on which Blood Pact is used, but will not exceed 180 seconds.
    That is extremely vague, as the majority of comments from that time (we're talking about 2006!). Before this patch Summoning Skill only affected the interrupt rate while summoning an avatar/spirit.
    So this leaves us with the following question to which I'd love to find answers:


    1. It mentions "skill which exceeds skill cap". Does this mean the current cap (417) or the cap back then at 75? (269)
    2. Does this imply that skill below cap, whichever it is, is still useless as it was before 2006?
    3. There's a talk of "increased accuracy for BP: Rage". Is it a generic omnicomprehensive accuracy? Or just physical accuracy?
    4. It says "increased duration for BP: Ward". It's pretty obvious for buff Wards, but what about debuff Wards?


    The game separates between two groups: Blood Pact: Ward and Blood Pact: Rage.
    But in reality there are four groups:
    1. BP Rage (physical)
    2. BP Rage (magical)
    3. BP Ward (buffs)
    4. BP Ward (debuff)

    My theory is that whichever way this "conversion" works, it's the same way everytime. I don't think there really is a situational conversion that changes according to the BP used, imho it's just the same but you just do not notice.
    For instance BP Ward buffs get the Skill>Physical accuracy but it makes no difference on buffs. Or BP Rage probably get the +duration but again it makes no difference.

    What's left to be found out is if Skill converts into Magical Accuracy too.
    If this happens, and if my theory is correct, then +Skill would be a valid alternative to Pet: Macc for debuff BP Wards.
    Altough we don't know the conversion rate (doesn't necessarily have to be 1:1) so we'd still be left to wonder about that.
    We can probably check the Skill>Physical accuracy conversion rate with /checkparam <pet> though, and we could assume a similar rate for Magic Accuracy (if there is a macc conversion at all)

  2. #2
    Ridill
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    Doubt check param would work for bp acc/macc

  3. #3
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    I was assuming the bonus acc to be always active but thinking back the patch notes talk about specific BP bonus so it's probably something that gets added only to BP actions =/

  4. #4
    Ridill
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    Yeah if it was full time then smn could actually get a decent hit rate possibly meleeing but SE doesn't want pets to actually be able to hit stuff

  5. #5
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    We also already kind of know their description is bullshit based on how ward BPs work, right? You get +1 second for every skill point you have over 300, capping out at 500 skill (+200 seconds, 3 minutes and 20 seconds).

    Assuming that the other bonuses they're talking about work the same would probably not be amiss.

  6. #6
    Sea Torques
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    I have recently verified if the skill add MACC to ward BPs. I never did it before because I have always thought it was something almost impossible to check and the long recast make this boring.
    I tried Nightmare (a BP with a "not that good" macc base) on a group of 2-3 Metalcruncher Worms in Woh Gates with 433 (the lowest amount I can reach) and got almost systematically resisted despite Nirvana and Seraphicaller. Then with 547 skill : not a single resist in 20-30 uses.
    I can't tell which is better between skill and macc but I can 100% confirm the skill has an impact on debuff wards.

  7. #7

    Skill definitely adds macc, you can go from practically floored resist to no resists with enough +summoning skill

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tachi View Post
    I can't tell which is better between skill and macc but I can 100% confirm the skill has an impact on debuff wards.
    Impossible to know I guess unless we get a conversion rate, but at least it's good to know that SMN skill does indeed convert to Macc.
    Now for slots where you can get both things, like Regimen Gloves vs Glyphic Gloves+1, I'd probably feel safer going with Macc.
    Same for Samanisi vs Conveyance cape in the back.
    Things get more interesting in other slots, but for slots where you don't have Macc, at least now we know SMN skill is a valid alternative.

    This also puts the Delve Staff (sorry, can't spell it lol) under a new light.
    For people without Nirvana that's arguably the best staff you can get. 5less Mab than Balsam, but +10 Macc and +7 Skill. I'd trade 10macc/7skill over 5mab everyday, wouldn't everybody else?
    Likewise, can get up to +30 attack, +10 acc and +7 skill for Physical BPs, and can also use them for Skill setup (augmented Kirin's Pole being better but... inventory space yo!)
    Bit expensive too. 12 Airlixirs with the current prices is 12 mils ungh...


    Have you ever tested if SMN skill, similarly to how it happens for other BP Ward buffs, adds +duration for BP Ward debuffs?
    Don't think it matters much, just curious.
    Probably it works different for Debuffs because it's not a fixed duration +fixed bonus, the base duration is probably not fixed likely depends on Pet stats vs Target stats/traits or something, I suppose at least?

  9. #9
    Sea Torques
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    Skill adds duration to Tidal Roar (caps at 4:50 with 500 skill) and Diamond Storm (6:20) only. Most Blood Pacts debuffs have a fixed duration, I can even give some data about this :
    Poison Nails, Moonlight Charge, Crescent Fang, Thunderspark : 60 seconds
    Rock Throw, Megalith Throw : 120 seconds and they are 30% Slow like Slowga.
    Slowga : 90 seconds
    Lunar Cry : 180 seconds
    Ultimate Terror : 60 seconds
    Tail Whip, Somnolence, Nightmare, Mewing Lullaby and Eerie Eye add effects don't have a fixed duration.

  10. #10

    I thought the summoning skill to macc thing was pretty common knowledge. It's just no one knows the conversion ratio but I assume it's 1 = 1 or 1 = 0.9 like other skills. Rank 15 tumafyrig is 15 macc btw not counting skill, not 10

  11. #11
    Ridill
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    It's that the update that added that say only for rage and wards were just duration

  12. #12
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    Bumping this thread for a small OT.
    Debuff Blood Pact: Ward.
    So far I always assumed all of them to rely on Macc for calculations, but have any test ever been performed about it?
    Until now it would have been pretty difficult to do given the limited macc/acc options in slots, but since we can now use Shiromochi to get a big chunk of physical accuracy, it could be feasible to perform a test and see if some Debuff rely on physical accuracy instead of magical.
    Could explain the hugely different land rates of some BPs.

    On a hunch I still feel they're all macc-based, but what's everybody else's thoughts on this?

  13. #13
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    I'd give you a 99.999% chance that every debuffing BP relies on magical accuracy. Even melee weaponskill additional effects rely on magical accuracy.

    It's such an unlikely hypothesis that no one has ever tested it (to my knowledge), so it probably can't be totally excluded, but it's really just very unlikely to be the case.

  14. #14
    Sea Torques
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    Yes, of course they are affected by MACC. With 433 SMN skill and Pet MACC+118 I can land debuffs on Metalcruncher Worms.

  15. #15
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    Partially OT and sorry to highjack this thread but I have a question about Zantetsuken (Odin).
    I noticed the other day that I haven't defined Zantetsuken into my spell_map table where I define the "type" for each Blood Pact (Buff, Debuff, Physical, etc).
    Now... tbf I don't even remember the last time I used Zantetsuken, but either way, which set do you guys use for your Zantetsuken? SMN skill like Perfect Defense? Physical BP? Magical BP?

  16. #16

    From my understanding the only thing that affects Zantetsuken is current MP, +bloodpact damage%, and the enemy's current and max HP. Skill, attack, MAB, MACC, etc. doesn't do anything

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