Rehauled Weapon Skills: tier lists

**Motenten** · 2014-06-17 23:52

Martel's data:

Ryunohige 119(245 dmg)

STR 199
DEX 166
VIT 175

fStr: 35

Caveat: Have heard someone mention that alpha still seems to apply to merited weaponskills. Based on the results I'm seeing in Stardiver, that seems quite likely. Adjusting results on that expectation.

Stardiver

Spoiler: show

Drakesbane

Spoiler: show

Sonic Thrust

Spoiler: show

Camlann's Torment

Spoiler: show

Summary:

Code:

Old Stardiver fTP: 0.75  > 0.84375 > 0.9375 
New Stardiver fTP: 0.75  > 1.25    > 1.75

50% increase at 2000 TP, 86% increase at 3000 TP

Drakesbane fTP: 1.0

Code:

Old Sonic Thrust fTP: 3.0  > ???  > 4.25
New Sonic Thrust fTP: 3.0  > 3.7  > 4.5

Camlann's Torment fTP: 2.9 (should be 3.0?)

**dasva** · 2014-06-18 00:14

Spirits within is now: 200% tp- 50% hp
300%- hp

**Motenten** · 2014-06-18 01:02

So, situational issues with weaponskills.

I charted up some comparisons of various H2H weaponskills. Note that these comparisons are fairly limited -- there's no DA/TA/QA, no gorgets, and no optimized gear per weaponskill (they all use the same stats). Crit rates are also approximated, since it was already getting complicated for just a rough comparison.

In any case, these are the results I came up with as TP increased from 1000 to 3000, at various cRatios:

Spoiler: show

Results:

At 3000 TP and capped attack, Raging Fists wins over everything (except possibly FW Tornado Kick)

At 1.75 cRatio, Raging Fists and Howling Fist are pretty much on par. Below that, Howling Fist wins.

Smite and Shijin are only competitive right at 1000 TP. At 1400+, several other options beat them.

Below 1.5 cRatio, Howling Fist tends to win even when close to 1000 TP.

At very low cRatios (0.5), Smite and Ascetic's win out at low to mid TP levels.

Asuran is steadily middle of the pack at all TP levels, but if the extra accuracy it provides is useful, it will likely beat out most others, at least below 2000 TP.

At capped attack, Raging Fists at 2000 TP is about 30% above Smite at 1000 TP. At 3000 TP it's about twice as much damage as Smite at 1000 TP. Not enough of a gain to be worth deliberately holding TP, but if you do end up with higher TP, definitely switch weaponskills (barring skillchain opportunities).

Howling Fist in a reive when you get 3000 TP is probably good for 6000 damage. Raging Fists on a heavily debuffed mob has the highest potential damage, north of 8000.

I suspect there's going to be similar comparative issues with other weapon types, but it's a fair bit of work. I'll leave it to others for the most part.

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 01:05

For testing Mythic WS, wouldn't it be better to perform the test with a normal weapon instead of the mythic itself?
Anyway, these results are looking good.
It was LS event time for me yesterday so I didn't have time to do anything myself.

Onlly used my ddBRD on D "The Celestial Nexus" and I was hitting Exoplates for 1000-1100 damage with Evisceration, and ~600 with Exenterator and Mordant Rime.
Difference was bigger than I expected :O
(I don't claim this data to have any relevance, I'm just sharing my surprise).

The thing about alpha still being present for Merit WS is quite something. Wonder if it's an error on their side, or something they did because of the 100% mod.
If it's the latter... did they do it for all the other (new) WS who got their mods bumped to 100?
I hope they just forgot to remove the alpha from merit WS. After all they've always been "special" (like ftp carrying to all hits for some of them etc), they might have something different in the internaal calculation and that's why they messed up and "forgot" to remove alpha from them too.

**Ophannus** · 2014-06-18 01:14

300% Impulse Drive is looking pretty good for DRG's at 300%, doing like 8-9k with it.

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 01:21

Originally Posted by Motenten

I suspect there's going to be similar comparative issues with other weapon types, but it's a fair bit of work. I'll leave it to others for the most part.

Wonder how this data will change once we optimize for different WSset (granted that most of the WS we're talking of use the same mods, even if at different %) and once we know the correct crit % at various TP levels.
Rogue roll would probably change things too (altough you might wonder if it's worth to use it over other options, given this scenario you showed us).

I'm glad for my Monk, a bit worried for my PUP because I feel kinda lost between all these options, and in my current macrosets I only have space for two WSs lol (8 different maneuvers take up a lot of space

)

So, to sum up things for MNK and leaving Tornado Kick aside, the WS we'd need to consider are:
1) Howling Fist > Very strong WS at 2000+ TP, ignores defense (or multiplies attack?)
2) Raging Fists > Very strong at 2000+, likely the strongest at 3000% if on a very debuffed target
3) Asuran Fists > Pretty even at all levels of TP, very good if you can make use of the additional acc (reduced efficiency of multiattack though)
4) Victory Smite > Probably still the best at 1000% TP, and likely the best SC options too
5) Spinning Attack > If you can hit at least 3 targets, this is going to produce the most damage

I see less and less and less reasons to merit Shijin honestly.
To create a tier list and put it on the first page we'd need to split the list into three.
1000TP, 2000TP and 3000TP.
And would also need more WS to put in (Stringing Pummel, Final Heaven, Ascetic's Fury... did you test stuff like Shoulder Tackle and One Inch Punch too?)
Given this scenario it feels like Pummel and Fury should be very good/the best for the respective Mythic owners.

**Motenten** · 2014-06-18 01:52

did you test stuff like Shoulder Tackle and One Inch Punch too?

Didn't do testing on them since Shoulder Tackle is just stun, and One Inch Punch ignores defense (which means a more complicated test setup).

Final Heaven looks to be a smidge better than Asuran at all levels, though DA/TA/QA should push it up a bit relative to Asuran. That's including relic damage bonus.

Pummel looks on par with Smite without mythic bonus, and substantially ahead of other options with mythic bonus (it starts around the 4000 dmg mark at 1000 TP at 1.75 cRatio), up til about 2000 TP, where Raging/Howling may surpass it.

**Ihina** · 2014-06-18 01:52

Errr are we sure Rudra at 100% is 3.25 still? That seems low considering the numbers yesterday.

**Motenten** · 2014-06-18 01:54

Originally Posted by Ihina

Errr are we sure Rudra at 100% is 3.25 still? That seems low considering the numbers yesterday.

The update notes only indicated a change for 2000+ TP. All others with that note that have been tested at 1000 TP have been the same as before.

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 02:47

Ok so if we were to create a tier list (with generic indicators since I don't know which criteria you used for the numbers you did post on FFXIAH) it should be something like this.
Please Motenten tell me where to fix it.
It would be awesome if we could change the tier numbers with something like what you used in your FFXIAH post (the one currently in the first page of this thread).
Because with 1, 2, 3, ... numbers you know what is better than what, but you can't tell the difference. Sometimes they're so close it doesn't really matter much picking one or another, some other times there's a huge difference between a place and the next in the list.
It would be awesome if we could provide this information as well in the list.
I only put 0,5 and 2,25 cRatios to simplify the table. Ideally I wanted to avoid considering it, but since the differences are so big I thought we couldn't ignore it.

Spoiler: show

**Prothescar** · 2014-06-18 02:49

didn't get much time today to test like I wanted to, so couldn't get to most of the sword ones I wanted to check or great katana ones yet, but expiacion is looking like 4.25fTP @ 2000 and 7.5fTP @ 3000. need to reverify some things before posting a full writeup though, and hopefully tomorrow can get to the other ones (primarily: Fast Blade, Savage Blade, Shoha, Fudo)

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 02:59

Please do not forget to test Gekko as well. In situations where your attack is very low I feel Gekko could prove a nice WS, altough I cannot imagine how good it would do compared to the GKT monsters (Kaiten, Shoha, Fudo).

**Ihina** · 2014-06-18 04:11

Well I figured out why my Rudra was doing abnormally high damage for a 3.25fTP.

Apparently, the Moonshade Earring is a thing and it's stupidly broken now. Took my 1000tp 58## Rudra and jacked it up to 68##. 1k extra damage from that one piece alone.

While I'm at it, if we use the 8863 Mandalic stab from yesterday, it has a 7fTP at 3000TP

@3000TP
8863 / 1.36 = 6516
6516 / 3 = 2172
2172 - 276 = 1896
1896 / (91 + 18 + 165) = 6.9

Geez, Mercy Stroke loses pretty badly even to Mandalic Stab now at 3000TP. Did the Vajra just become viable?

@1000TP
3944 / 1.36 = 2900
2900 / 3 = 966
1215 - 276 = 690
690 / (91 + 18 +165) = 2.5 (notes say it was changed for 1000TP and up)

@2000TP
6785 / 1.36 = 4988
4988 / 3 = 1662
1662 - 276 = 1386
1386 / (91 + 18 + 165) = 5

Go 2.5 > 5 > 7 for Mandalic Stab

**ccl** · 2014-06-18 04:39

Sam/thf sneak attack, 221 str koga: 224 dmg

Fudo:

2000tp: 7384 7458 7749 7790
3000tp: 10868 10791 10441 10756

So about 8.2 ftp @3000 tp and 5.8@2000tp?

**Motenten** · 2014-06-18 04:54

Fudo:
5.75 @ 2000 TP
8.0 @ 3000 TP

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 06:23

1000 damage from Moonshade Earring? Wut?
That's insane...
Urgh. They can't possibly allow a single item, one in a secondary slot even, to create such a huge difference...

Also Mote, Backhand Blow missing from your tests. The new mods are interesting, is the crit rate per TP too low for it to stand a chance against other WS?

**Damane** · 2014-06-18 06:41

Originally Posted by Sechs

1000 damage from Moonshade Earring? Wut?
That's insane...
Urgh. They can't possibly allow a single item, one in a secondary slot even, to create such a huge difference...

Also Mote, Backhand Blow missing from your tests. The new mods are interesting, is the crit rate per TP too low for it to stand a chance against other WS?

i can see their 4. legendary weapon line be based around TP bonus maybe (with some other stuff).

**Sechs** · 2014-06-18 06:47

I really wanted to avoid getting a TP Bonus Moonshade, but if THAT is the sort of difference they wanna keep for it, they're kinda depriving us of our freedom of choice.
It would be like SE asking us: "Do you want one billion dollar or 5000 dollars?"
This is retarded >_>

**Indalecia** · 2014-06-18 07:46

Even if it does do that for ws's, I'm still not sure if I'll change it from my refresh earring. Damage is awesome but its usefulness on any job with mp is not to be overstated.

I'm heading out and testing things with Apoc if anyone gives a damn. Was planning on testing Cata, Quietus and might do Entropy. Let me know if i can skip Entropy, btw, its only 1/5 and from what I'm reading, merit ws's seem hammered out?

**FenMelphina** · 2014-06-18 07:48

Rudra's Storm just gets very large anchor tier increases. 3.25 --> 6.25 --> 8.75 is a very rapid progression, so 25% tp is worth 0.75 WSC right then and there, which is huge with all the stat vomit gear. It scales almost linearly from 1000 straight to 3000 with minimal loss of efficiency. Combine that with a SA/TA critical and the crit attack bonus trait + gear thief uses and yeah, moonshade is definitely broken in that weaponskill. It shouldn't be quite as powerful in the other weaponskills, but it's by far the strongest accessory now bar none.

EDIT: It shouldn't be 1000 damage though. More along the lines of 500-700. Using 265 dex as a baseline for example

265 x 0.8 == 212
212 x 0.75 == 159

159 x 2.5 x 1.28 == 508 at 1.5 cRatio with crit bonus
159 x 3.25 x 1.28 == 661 at 2.25 cRatio with crit bonus

I multiplied critical attack bonus by 1.28 assuming the weaponskill is used in conjunction with pillager's hat/body/hands/ and legs +1.

Still, for one accessory slot 500-600 damage is stupid powerful.

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