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**Amiricle** · 2014-10-06 08:57

That's a problem with religion in general, not Islam specifically, and why the separation of church & state is a big deal here.

**Blubbartron** · 2014-10-06 09:20

Originally Posted by Amiricle

That's a problem with religion in general, not Islam specifically, and why the separation of church & state is a big deal here.

I can agree with that for the most part, though I think Islam makes itself more of a problem due to their complete unwillingness to allow criticism of their principles. Even without having Islam dictating law for a country, it should be troubling to us that most "moderate" Muslims think it's acceptable to punish people (severity varies) simply for drawing a picture or criticizing their religion.

**Odin'sLaw** · 2014-10-06 12:22

ITS HAPPENED!

**Insanecyclone** · 2014-10-06 23:31

**Stef** · 2014-10-06 23:54

Originally Posted by Charismatic

Consider that most of what Ben is saying is that you can't go lumping all Muslims together because you have countries like Indonesia and Malaysia where the vast majority of people practice Islam and don't have these kinds of issues.

The argument against viewing all muslims the same is a fair point and one that Sam Harris himself makes repeatedly including in this very discussion. Harris tries to show us that religion is a problem to the extent that the foundational scriptures are taken seriously as a guide on how to live life and structure society. It's hard to argue that scripture isn't the core of monotheistic religion: what would Christianity be without the Bible; what would Islam be without the Koran, the Hadith, or its other sacred texts? All of these documents are violent and illiberal, but the religions they belong to are only considered violent religions in-so-far as they fail to interpret the texts abstractly. The Bible is a violent, illiberal document, but Christianity today is largely separated from government in the West; the US may have a large Christian majority, but it cannot rightly be called a Christian state because it has a secular government.

Achieving a split between religion and government was a hard-fought battle in the West and it is a struggle that is still ongoing in much of the muslim world. When someone like Reza Aslan talks about gender equality or liberal democracy in states like Indonesia, Malaysia, and Bangladesh he ignores some of the real problems that these countries face as a result of fundamentalist Islam.

An interesting article from the cofounders of Ex-muslims of America:
Reza Aslan is Wrong About Islam and This is Why - Patheos Oct 2014

A quick search brings up plenty of articles on the pressures these states face from political Islam:

Malaysia
Reuters Jul 2014
BBC Aug 2011

Indonesia
Spiegel Nov 2013
Human Rights Watch Oct 2014
Al Jazeera May 2014
Jakarta Post Sep 2012
NYT April 2014

Opinion Polls in the muslim world (these are particularly worrying and are likely some of the polls that Sam alludes to in the Bill Maher clip)
Pew Global Dec 2010
Washington Post May 2013
Pew Research April 2013

What these articles and polls invariably show is that the less austere and the more secular a state is the more its problems with radical Islam get relegated to the fringes. Countries like Turkey and Indonesia still contend with portions of the population that believe political islam is a good thing, but of importance is the fact that these factions have less of an impact on government. What this essentially says is that the more secular a government is - the more it moves away from religious ideas - the more liberal it becomes; this is precisely what Sam Harris is trying to point out. When people like Reza Aslan say that Harris' interpretation of the Koran and Hadith is as literal as the fundamentalists and that the majority of muslims don't read them that way what he is in fact admitting is that the more moderate you are the less seriously you take your religion.

Now, to make this post relevant to this thread, here's a debate between Harris and Aslan from 2005. Harris has a much better chance to lay out his arguments here (the debaters start speaking at the 10:30 mark):

**Amiricle** · 2014-10-07 00:44

Yea, now that is a good video. Both of them are exceptional speakers, and I am a fan of both
While I am a fan of Reza, I am not a fan of Islam (or any major organized religion for that matter). And while he does conveniently leave out and/or obscure certain facts, they do need someone like him with all the fearmongering and hatred being arrayed against them from 1st world nations due to some very extreme nutjobs. We (Canada, USA, ect.) only make things worse if we continue to make average muslims feel their way of life and culture is under attack, despised, and feared, and for this reason I am glad someone like Reza has gotten the spotlight he currently has.
While Indonesia, Malaysia, and especially Turkey have a long ways to go yet they have been progressing in the right way, but those gains become more and more compromised when we continue to group them in the same way as the crazies Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Iran, Iraq, etc which are still deep in the dark ages culturally, since I think we'll just cause them to circle the wagons and demand Islam gains more political power in whatever country in order to better protect their beliefs.
Edit: I just wanted to add that Reza himself has said that he doesn't take any of the Quran literally and taken a lot of shit over his writing historical evidence disproving a number of things written in it. He only identifies as a muslim because he prefers the symbols, practices, and language of that faith in his worship of God over other equally valid faiths.

Unrelated video so as to not totally derail thread

**Eticket** · 2014-10-07 04:41

The shit you find on youtube at 3 in the morning.

**Aristio** · 2014-10-07 16:31

**nayaminfenrir** · 2014-10-08 04:40

Are you going to the Christmas party?! lol

#ownzones

**Insanecyclone** · 2014-10-08 12:30

**Deadgye** · 2014-10-08 15:23

Somehow, watching dbz with the voice actors screaming instead of just the characters makes it much more enjoyable.

**Cream Soda** · 2014-10-08 15:35

I'm sure he's glad to be rid of the "omg when's battle of the gods coming out in English" shit. Lol he was at an anime convention I went to a year ago and he got pissed when he got spammed w/ that at his Q&A