Salvage Bans v 2.0

[dasva]

So you're saying that Monks effectively operate like DW just with a massive amount of DW baseline?

Going by that that means monk will delay cap with Oatixur at around capped magic/equip haste but at 110-115 delay attack rounds. Whereas with Jugo's now THF can somewhat easily hit the delay cap of 75, so that's quite a few more attack rounds for THF.

Basically yeah except of course MA is a flat amount off while dw is a percentage. But yeah 115 sounds about right... as far as what thf can get iirc that delay cap just SE rep not knowing the game I don't think it was ever proven so thf can probably go even lower

Along those lines does anyone know if the -delay augments count towards that cap?

[PSOfanatic]

I really do enjoy reading this thread. It makes me smile everyday!

[Atomic Skull]

I was reading that and I was wondering what they were smoking. The only thing THF can do right now realistically is drop massive Rudras. The rest of their damage is pretty bad, and I dont think "DNC" can inherently shit all over it, theyre still both using fucking daggers lol. Unless I missed something about modifying Climactic recast, THF can realistically drop a Rudra-bomb every ~30 seconds (It could be ~25, but is it worth dropping the Triple merits?) and DNC can only do it every 90 seconds or so.

WS damage and SA damage are calculated separately and added together, WS always goes off base damage of the weapon not the DEX boosted base damage of the SA melee hit.

And because the ftp of Rudras is so huge the SA melee component of SA/WS is a drop in the bucket compared to the WS component. Therefore DNC/THF SA/Rudras isn't much different from THF main. I mean it's slightly less, but not even close to enough to make up for all the stuff DNC/THF gets over THF.

A couple things would have to happen for THF to have parity with DNC.

Accuracy Bonus I-III
Dual Wield VI
SA/TA timers reduced to 20s
Change SA to how it originally was where it worked anywhere outside of the mob's line of sight except that the DEX bonus falls off the further you are from directly behind the mob (THF main only)
Change TA so it grants a forced crit without the AGI bonus when not performed from behind another party member (THF main only)

[Sechs]

How does additional DW make a (positive) difference, when you're riding at capped gear and magic haste? Honest question.
I'd be leaning to think that it's actually beneficial to have less, given how the more you have the less tp per hit you get, in such a (very likely) scenario.

If you're talking about situations where you don't have capped magic haste then you probably mean strange setups or lowmen and I doubt those matter in the grand scheme of things, do they?

[Fwahm]

I thought SE fixed DW so that it only lowers TP gain until the haste cap?

Anyway, having extra DW can make a difference when you're fighting enemies with common AoE slow abilities that overwrite your haste, like Incursion when your stunners can't get every single Saurian Swamp, or against Kam'lanaut.

[Sechs]

I thought they said they WANTED to do that, but then said it was too complicated and released Daken instead (as if DW were not a problem for THF and DNC lol).
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Fwahm I absolutely agree with your examples, there could be many more, but those are all specific situations and it's quite different from saying "THF would need more DW traits to be on par with DNC" which is what Atomic Skull was saying.
Not saying all his points are moot, but at least the DW one seemed a bit out of place to me, just that.

[ccl]

Because you still need some dual wield gear to cap delay even with capped magic/gear haste.

[Sechs]

Edit:
Nvm, still ~1% left, wrong calculations.

[Spicyryan]

I've been busy, and as such haven't been around.
However, how the fuck did this thread digress into some RSOPQQWTF BS?

[dasva]

Because you still need some dual wield gear to cap delay even with capped magic/gear haste.

For thf that's all of about 11% which is rather easy to do without really doing much. Heck giving the better dagger selection you could probably achieve similar attack speeds without gearing for it. DW VI would be overkill and result in lower tp gain as it would overcap them without gear and at the very least should be using taeon feet.

[Hitou]

I've been busy, and as such haven't been around.
However, how the fuck did this thread digress into some RSOPQQWTF BS?

Empyreans were randomly brought up and it was suggested that they should get the 40% ws buff of mythics and relics since they suck. That led to rudra's being stronger than it already is and that led to pages and pages of people arguing about rudra's needing a nerf or not. Welcome to random fail 2.0

[Spicyryan]

Empyreans were randomly brought up and it was suggested that they should get the 40% ws buff of mythics and relics since they suck. That led to rudra's being stronger than it already is and that led to pages and pages of people arguing about rudra's needing a nerf or not. Welcome to random fail 2.0

Isladaaaaaarr~!!!

[Byrthnoth]

Question Byrth, why does THF outparse 5-10%? I would think with DW4, Saber Dance and Haste Samba that DNC would win. Not to mention, can't DNC force crit Rudra more often than THF can? Also shouldn't DNC close Rudra given they have SC bonus?

Haste Samba is nearly irrelevant unless your party is specifically using it (Haste Samba + Haste II, double March, or Geo-Haste is about the same as Haste + double march). Haste stacks with all of those buffs except Haste II and decreases your recast times, so you frequently end up in situations where Haste Samba is having almost no effect at all. Plus, it's a party-wide buff so there's no way that it could make a difference between DNC and THF.

DW4 is not a bonus in a party, because every party these days has capped Haste. In fact, iirc, DW4 actually hurts our TP gain quite a bit in such a situation. This is a penalty that THF experiences less severely.

Saber Dance <= Triple Attack with merits

Climactic Flourish is better than Sneak Attack or Trick Attack, but you can use less often and it requires finishing moves. (7 FMs) CF -> NFR (5 FMs) -> Evisceration -> Trance -> Rudra's (Darkness) -> Reverse Flourish -> Rudra's (Darkness) is something that you can't do with TA or SA. CF is going to be much better than them after they release this AF3+2 purely by virtue of having stats on Empyrean head.

Striking Flourish has a 30 second recast /50% crit rate/only costs 2 FMs and depending on what (and whether) the Empyrean +3/4 enhancement is, it might be the go-to flourish for Rudra's after the update.

Steps are useful, depending on your party size and goals.


Still, the entire premise revolved around being in a party with a Thief. I'm not saying Dancer isn't more useful than Thief and doesn't overall contribute more to the party damage, but if you put the two of them in a party and they play together in the smartest way and then sum their melee+skillchain damage, Dancer should get outparsed. THF should be closing either 2 or 3-step skillchains, which means they either get effectively double WS damage or 2.5x WS damage. It's a huge boon to them.

[geno3302]

THF should be closing either 2 or 3-step skillchains, which means they either get effectively double WS damage or 2.5x WS damage. It's a huge boon to them.

Blasphemy!

What do you think this is 2005? No one works together to do more damage anymore! Next you'll spew sacrilegious nonsense such as magic bursting.

[Kanriel]

magic bursting.

Isn't that for an RoE?

[Fwahm]

I seem to remember it being a mechanic introduced to break Hurkan's aur.

[dasva]

It was introduced to make bst good. See first you use that one bird move to start a skillchain then you use cloudsplitter bam light then use the other pet move to magic burst and all of a sudden bst top dd!

[S N K]

It was introduced to make bst good. See first you use that one bird move to start a skillchain then you use cloudsplitter bam light then use the other pet move to magic burst and all of a sudden bst top dd!

lol.

[Chimerawizard]

I've been busy, and as such haven't been around.
However, how the fuck did this thread digress into some RSOPQQWTF BS?

Anyone here get LM-31'd back in February and have your account back now? Or even a change from 31 to 17?

[Etice]

LM-31'd back in early feb, still was LM-31'd as of last night, a change would at least be nice for some closure.