Education Reform Thread

[Pirian]

Just wanted to confirm what was said by saying that I got through HS, got into college, and now graduate school without ever taking the SAT. Personally, I'm the only person I know from the US that hasn't taken the SAT, though

[Blubbartron]

Just wanted to confirm what was said by saying that I got through HS, got into college, and now graduate school without ever taking the SAT. Personally, I'm the only person I know from the US that hasn't taken the SAT, though

I never took the SAT. I took the ACT primarily because I was curious/kind of a formality. By the time I graduated high school I was essentially a transferring junior, so it was moot.

On another note, to contradict Sath, I have to disagree with your ideas about math education. People hit that brick wall in Algebra because they're trying to understand what's going on. If they simply continued treating it as a mechanical operation, they'd have much more success. Also, you should read up on how education is handled in a bunch of the Asian countries that are kicking our collective ass in math ability. Often times, the teachers won't be educated more than a few grade levels beyond what they're teaching. It becomes increasingly difficult to talk about something like math to someone who knows vastly less than you. Try explaining the properties of rings and fields to 1st graders who just need to know how to add and subtract. It's pointless, and unnecessarily complicates the matter. Hell, even when I was tutoring in college, I managed to get a hell of a lot of people to stop failing and start seeing A's and B's on tests once I explained that they're learning tools to use later. The first step in learning to use a tool is HOW you use the tool. After you know how to use it, then you can worry about knowing why you use it and when it's appropriate. Baby steps and shit.

[Cantih]

Sorry, yes you are right, but getting a GED for many is going to be more time consuming than going to college with a low SAT score but with a talent.

Unless you're super remedial, studying for the GED shouldn't take more than a year of effort, at most. Not really that much of a timesink.

If the only problem is that you bombed the standardized high school test because x, y, or z, but were otherwise at least half awake through HS it is a hilariously easy test.

^This. And remember in order to keep the GED tuned to be effective, they administer the test to a batch of graduating high school seniors every year, and the failure rate is around 30%

I got mine at 25, never cracked a book for it, and passed on the first try with a 97/99 percentile score in all sections but the essay (which was just barely a pass, which is the same general reason I never got my diploma originally).

[Ksandra]

I don't trust random Joe math teacher to have any fucking clue what my imaginary kid needs to properly learn math. Sorry, that's the reality of it. And if I was ultra poor and only had access to poverty line education systems? Fuck no.

But you would trust random Joe to teach something promoted as a means to make more money? Common core isn't changing random Joe from teaching your kids. In fact, good teachers are leaving in droves because of what has happened to education. Your are going to find more random Joes getting the jobs because no one else will take them.

[BerenTebogo]

I never took the SAT. I took the ACT primarily because I was curious/kind of a formality. By the time I graduated high school I was essentially a transferring junior, so it was moot.

On another note, to contradict Sath, I have to disagree with your ideas about math education. People hit that brick wall in Algebra because they're trying to understand what's going on. If they simply continued treating it as a mechanical operation, they'd have much more success. Also, you should read up on how education is handled in a bunch of the Asian countries that are kicking our collective ass in math ability. Often times, the teachers won't be educated more than a few grade levels beyond what they're teaching. It becomes increasingly difficult to talk about something like math to someone who knows vastly less than you. Try explaining the properties of rings and fields to 1st graders who just need to know how to add and subtract. It's pointless, and unnecessarily complicates the matter. Hell, even when I was tutoring in college, I managed to get a hell of a lot of people to stop failing and start seeing A's and B's on tests once I explained that they're learning tools to use later. The first step in learning to use a tool is HOW you use the tool. After you know how to use it, then you can worry about knowing why you use it and when it's appropriate. Baby steps and shit.

You are effectively saying that kids fail at algebra because they learn the basics of math in a mechanical way and then when they get to a level of math that isn't necessarily mechanical, they fail cuz they are trying to understand it. Which is exactly what I said. You are just saying they SHOULDNT try to understand it, which is horseshit.

Obviously nobody is going to try to teach group theory to first graders either, don't be retarded.

The concept, as I understand it, of common core math is to teach kids a more logical and creative way of problem solving which is, unequivocally, a more useful tool to develop than the ability to turn a crank and generate an answer.

Obviously kids you and I have tutored at many levels of math suffer from the problems of mechanical meets abstract, everyone we are tutoring was raised learning the same way we did. Why the shit would it be any different? The major, major problem that I (and you) can directly relate to is that there exist walls that you cannot surpass by "just grinding it out".

The idea, whether it works or not, is that when CC students hit HS and college they are more prepared with general problem-solving skills than the previous generation. Might they be worse at purely mechanical knuckle-dragging? Maybe. But anyone who still does "turn crank and receive answer" on something that isn't a computer in this day and age deserves whatever hell they bring upon themselves.

And yes, asian countries kick our asses in math. They also teach pre-calculus and calculus way earlier, which I agree with pretty heavily. There is also a completely different societal stance on education in that entire region than there is here. Being "too cool for school" is not actually cool. The reasons asians are much better at math and science than us is not "because they don't think about it, they just do it."

[Ksandra]

Unless you're super remedial, studying for the GED shouldn't take more than a year of effort, at most. Not really that much of a timesink.


^This. And remember in order to keep the GED tuned to be effective, they administer the test to a batch of graduating high school seniors every year, and the failure rate is around 30%

I got mine at 25, never cracked a book for it, and passed on the first try with a 97/99 percentile score in all sections but the essay (which was just barely a pass, which is the same general reason I never got my diploma originally).

I am not saying the ged is hard, I am saying we shouldn't compare the sats to the high school exit exam.

[Boyiee]

Just wanted to confirm what was said by saying that I got through HS, got into college, and now graduate school without ever taking the SAT. Personally, I'm the only person I know from the US that hasn't taken the SAT, though

A shit ton of people do this, what the fuck lol. The SATs were like on Saturdays and cost money, no one did that shit.

[BerenTebogo]

But you would trust random Joe to teach something promoted as a means to make more money? Common core isn't changing random Joe from teaching your kids. In fact, good teachers are leaving in droves because of what has happened to education. Your are going to find more random Joes getting the jobs because no one else will take them.

Good teachers are leaving in droves because they are being paid fuckall and not being paid overtime to reteach themselves every subject they ever learned, not because of some moral stance against the change. Don't be silly.

I don't mind a random Joe teaching my kid, I never said that, A+ for reading comprehension. I said I don't want some random Joe making decisions about which way is best for my kid to learn, because random Joe most likely isn't a consortium of people with PhDs in child psychology and early childhood development, and neither are you, and neither am I.

The point is that the CC stuff is based around research about how the developing brain works and grasps concepts, as well as how the brain integrated those processes into habit, whether by practice or other methods. What I know about math or science, and what you do, and what anyone does, has zero standing with respect to what is best for HOW kids learn.

CC may not be right, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater when there is research that says we are not maximizing learning potential in kids.

[Acevalefor]

I have seen my 14-year-old absolutely fail at understanding the number logic and theory behind the rules like; If it is an even number, it is divisible by 2. If the last two digits are added together, are they divisible by four? He just cannot grasp it the way we learned it. He also has trouble with inequalities and quadratics. Does that trouble lie in the way the material is taught to him? Is the teacher responsible for his struggle? Does any of this matter if his talents lie in people skills and a love of biology? Why can't a student excel in several areas and struggle in one or two and still graduate? He is already being told, less than two months into his freshman year, that he is going to have to take summer school if he can't pass algebra II. Why?

[BerenTebogo]

I have seen my 14-year-old absolutely fail at understanding the number logic and theory behind the rules like; If it is an even number, it is divisible by 2. If the last two digits are added together, are they divisible by four? He just cannot grasp it the way we learned it. He also has trouble with inequalities and quadratics. Does that trouble lie in the way the material is taught to him? Is the teacher responsible for his struggle? Does any of this matter if his talents lie in people skills and a love of biology? Why can't a student excel in several areas and struggle in one or two and still graduate? He is already being told, less than two months into his freshman year, that he is going to have to take summer school if he can't pass algebra II. Why?

Primarily because you can't be a biologist if you can't at least pass a college level statistics class. Being a biologist basically comes with a "my first data analysis" degree. If the kid wants to be a poet, then sure.

Why is he being told 2 months into school that he is going to have to take summer school? Probably because people are fucking retarded and not everyone who is a teacher should be. See: education needs money.

[Ksandra]

Good teachers are leaving in droves because they are being paid fuckall and not being paid overtime to reteach themselves every subject they ever learned, not because of some moral stance against the change. Don't be silly.

You are ignorant if you don't think part of the reason is politics involved in taking away our freedom to teach.

[Ksandra]

Primarily because you can't be a biologist if you can't at least pass a college level statistics class. Being a biologist basically comes with a "my first data analysis" degree. If the kid wants to be a poet, then sure.

Why is he being told 2 months into school that he is going to have to take summer school? Probably because people are fucking retarded and not everyone who is a teacher should be. See: education needs money.

OR there aren't enough teachers to have remedial classes. Case in point: where I teach. We don't have enough teachers so have to smash all the kids in one class. Stop accusing all the teachers of being dumb. That's not why schools are failing.

[BerenTebogo]

OR there aren't enough teachers to have remedial classes. Case in point: where I teach. We don't have enough teachers so have to smash all the kids in one class. Stop accusing all the teachers of being dumb. That's not why schools are failing.

"Schools need more money"

"Stop accusing all teachers of being dumb, that isn't why schools are failing."

O ok. You are a shining beacon of inspiration for what a teacher should be.

And obviously there is some political fallout, but you have never had "freedom to teach". Go try to teach that gravity doesn't work, or that the only way to find the slope of a line is by taking the derivative, or that slavery was cool.

[BerenTebogo]

Your "freedom to teach" is "I want to teach it how I learned it because that is what I know and you don't pay me enough to learn something else."

[Byrthnoth]

First, good neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods can be separated by one street and so combining neighboring school districts can have a huge issue that has nothing to do with schools.

There's a lot of problems with what you just said. First, some have argued that removing the SES (and thus race) segregation from the school system has a net positive effect on both the students and ultimately society: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...on-now/359813/

Second, bad neighborhoods have bad schools because all the poorest kids with the worst home situations are forced into the same school district. Maybe the schools that service these "bad neighborhoods" would have lunches for the kids (and an active PTA, etc.) if it was half people from "good neighborhoods."

Finally, schools are generally funded by local property tax, so communities with low property values are starting from a deficit. In my home state, the kids in the poorest county get $12k worth of education a year, while kids in the richest county get $13k worth of education a year. You know how tight school budgets are, so I'm sure you can imagine the difference 10% can make. I'll note that my state is relatively equal compared to others. Vermont's split is 15k vs. 6.5k.




If the government really wanted to not leave any child behind, it wouldn't let us have a two tier education system where one set of students is supported and the other set is doomed to failure. The simplest way to address this, given the quantification of results by school and high variance among neighbors, would have been redistricting.

No Child Left Behind was a horrible implementation of a good idea.

[Pirian]

I never took the SAT. I took the ACT primarily because I was curious/kind of a formality. By the time I graduated high school I was essentially a transferring junior, so it was moot.

A shit ton of people do this, what the fuck lol. The SATs were like on Saturdays and cost money, no one did that shit.

Whoops, meant to include that I am by no means exceptionally gifted. I'm sure it's more common for gifted students

[Ksandra]

"Schools need more money"

"Stop accusing all teachers of being dumb, that isn't why schools are failing."

O ok. You are a shining beacon of inspiration for what a teacher should be.

wtf are you going on about? Those two statements are not contradictory. Schools don't need more money because the teachers are bad. Where did you get that fucking idea? They need more money so the good teachers have the resources to teach well. This includes having MORE teachers so you aren't teaching 30+ kids. And bringing back good teachers in subject areas that have been cut to make room for common core (art, music, pe, etc.) as well as resources like computers.

There's a lot of problems with what you just said. First, some have argued that removing the SES (and thus race) segregation from the school system has a net positive effect on both the students and ultimately society: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...on-now/359813/

Second, bad neighborhoods have bad schools because all the poorest kids with the worst home situations are forced into the same school district. Maybe the schools that service these "bad neighborhoods" would have lunches for the kids (and an active PTA, etc.) if it was half people from "good neighborhoods."

Finally, schools are generally funded by local property tax, so communities with low property values are starting from a deficit. In my home state, the kids in the poorest county get $12k worth of education a year, while kids in the richest county get $13k worth of education a year. You know how tight school budgets are, so I'm sure you can imagine the difference 10% can make. I'll note that my state is relatively equal compared to others. Vermont's split is 15k vs. 6.5k.




If the government really wanted to not leave any child behind, it wouldn't let us have a two tier education system where one set of students is supported and the other set is doomed to failure. The simplest way to address this, given the quantification of results by school and high variance among neighbors, would have been redistricting.

No Child Left Behind was a horrible implementation of a good idea.

Maybe I misunderstood your comment. I thought you meant combining as in if one district is doing well then the other one should be doing well, not that you wanted to mix students.

With that said I do not know if that is a good idea though because my experience has been that mixing students usually means the teacher has to focus so much on the behavioral issues in the class that the good students fall through the cracks.

I am struggling with something similar in one of my classes. One student is "getting kicked out of school" so doesn't give a fuck. None of us have leverage with him, and he causes havoc left and right in all of his classes. I have to follow tons of procedures every day before I can kick him out of class, and means he sucks away my time from the good students. He hasn't been kicked out because they need the mother to sign the paperwork and she won't (she doesn't want to deal with him either and has called the cops on him because she is terrified).

I have another student who threatens everyday to bring his gun into school (believable, he is a third generation gang member.) Another student who was full on high yesterday acting wacky. And so on.

Mixing these kids with regular students won't magically take them out of gang families. It won't magically make their parents quit drugs. It won't magically make them afford food on their table.

It might be a good idea, if we had enough teachers for it. idk I don't think it would be something you'd want to do right away, though.

[Ksandra]

I want you to understand, Sath, my school doesn't even have a gym. They have a bunch of exercise equipment thrown outside, and the kids have to walk two blocks to the community park to have P.E.. Whenever we have an assembly, we have to kick two teachers out of their room (they have a room with that movable wall thing) and have it in there. We don't even have a nurse. We have one computer lab for the whole school that has less computers than one of my classes. Thinking that having good teachers would magically fix all that is ridiculous.

[JigglyJam]

Are you teaching at like the juvenile justice facility or something? jesus

[Ksandra]

Are you teaching at like the juvenile justice facility or something? jesus

LAUSD