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  1. #101
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    I had a whole reply but honestly, fuck it.

    If you can't bring in new teachers, you can't educate the kids. If you don't offer to pay more to do the job, you wont bring in prospective hires.

    Art has been getting cut since before I was in high school. Since before state-wide standardized testing began. CC and *CAT tests didn't kill arts and humanities, they have been the first to get the axe since funding started being cut.

    You are in a very small minority of people who will suffer in silence (apparently not so much here) for the ability to teach. And honestly, we are lucky that people like you exist, but let me reiterate something clearly.

    Teachers like you are not what will fix the education system. There are not enough of you to matter, sorry. Need to get people who "don't really want to teach, but if the money is good I'd do it until something better comes along" and hope you retain some of them.
    I understand what you are saying, but I seriously doubt we will get money anytime soon. And so now you have the few willing to stick with it, and they are making many lives miserable with these tests. You won't get to even keep what you have.

    Found a semi-recent LA times article. I suggest looking through the comments to see why a lot of teachers left.

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...823-story.html

    As to me not suffering in silence on bg. My initial post was in the random complaint thread 'cause I needed to vent after having a really shitty week, and bane moved it here where it took off. This actually helped me release some steam of frustration I am dealing with, so thanks. lol I usually don't have time to post like this, but I needed it. Tomorrow I get to try and complete my children's Halloween costumes. If I can't, I'll have to buy them some 'cause midterms are coming up in two weeks and I have a mountain of work to do to get caught up.

  2. #102
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    Hmm, where is the evidence that teachers need to make more money in order to attract the "talent?" Private schools pay teachers far lower wages than public schools.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siatdiat View Post
    Hmm, where is the evidence that teachers need to make more money in order to attract the "talent?" Private schools pay teachers far lower wages than public schools.
    Private school teachers teach kids whose parents are willing to pay thousands of dollars and foresake their kids' shares of the local education system in exchange for better education. It is a very different environment from the kinds of public schools that Ksandra is talking about, and that is a huge motivator for teachers that offsets the relatively lower wage.

    Regardless how noble you think teachers are, raising wages will recruit more of them.

  4. #104

    I think the point is that, in order to attract enough teachers to make a meaningful difference, you would have to increase their wages an exorbitant amount. The main thing keeping people from being teachers at this point is society's parental failures (aka children). My mom was a teacher for 35 years, and getting dicked over by administrations all the time was acceptable, until the last 5-10 years of her career when the children just became absolutely horrendous. She once got "disciplined" because a student complained to her mother, and the mother complained to the administration, after my mom used the word "cretin" to describe whomever had stolen a valuable piece of technology from her computer lab. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with that level of bullshit.

  5. #105
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blubbartron View Post
    I think the point is that, in order to attract enough teachers to make a meaningful difference, you would have to increase their wages an exorbitant amount.
    Very much true. I think it is insanely unrealistic to think we could raise teacher pay to handle what teachers are trying to handle. Most would say $150k a year wouldn't even be enough for the type of hours and crap they have to put up with from admin, legislatures, and parents. How would we pay that?

    The main thing keeping people from being teachers at this point is society's parental failures (aka children). My mom was a teacher for 35 years, and getting dicked over by administrations all the time was acceptable, until the last 5-10 years of her career when the children just became absolutely horrendous. She once got "disciplined" because a student complained to her mother, and the mother complained to the administration, after my mom used the word "cretin" to describe whomever had stolen a valuable piece of technology from her computer lab. You couldn't pay me enough to put up with that level of bullshit.
    This. ^ The problem with teaching has a lot to do with what the teacher has no control over. It used to be the "soccer mom" who defended their children to the death was the exception, not the rule. You cannot control kids when the parents don't support the teachers. Which is like 90% of parents now.

    The difference with private school is that more parents are of the opinion that since they are spending money, they expect their kids to listen. (yes there are still defend-to-the-death parents, but not nearly as much as public schools.)

    My mom and I talk a lot about this trying to figure out what changed in society. I went to elementary school where my mom teaches. My generation definitely didn't have tons of of these types of kids, but she is now teaching the kids of my generation (many are, in fact, kids of my classmates) and it is insane how much these parents defend their kids. She somehow joined a private parent group on fb, and the parents have complained about hw their kids get (which is vastly less than what we got), and one parent even stated that she takes her kid out for ice cream every time my mom gives the kid a referral for not doing his hw.

    My mom liked the post just to sorta say, "I see you."

    Our only conclusion is that more and more parents are having to work longer hours and are stressed at work with broken families, and it's a lot easier to just say, "Bad teacher," than it is to address the problem at home. How can a school even fix that with the best of teachers?

  6. #106
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    At some point saying "I wouldn't do this for 150k" makes you a fucking imbecile, not someone to be taken seriously.

    If you think teaching at a college level is worlds and worlds better than teaching at a high school level you are dead wrong. Same shitty hours, same expectation to perform and pass students while somehow still maintaining a level of education acceptable in the workforce, all while continuously applying for grants and doing your own research. The moment you stop bringing in grant money to the school you are canned, regardless of your teaching. Likewise, if you bring in a lot of money you get away with murder on the teaching end. Sure the students are generally more well-behaved but the expected level of work performed at the end of the day is much higher than at a HS level. Especially at smaller schools where having a TA or grader is a luxury, not a guarantee.

    All that said, professors (outside of maybe .1%) are not making 150k a year. Most dont even make over 80k a year.

    You can bemoan the state of things all you want. You can justify teachers leaving en masse, hell I'll agree with you on a lot of it. Like I said before, I sure as shit won't do it and I have had "be a hs teacher!" Pitched at me more times than any other job offer in my life.

    At the end of all the complaints and hand-wringing, the problem and possible solutions need to be quantified. Can't just say "there is no level of pay to make this job worth doing that can be met" cuz the only response to that is "okay everyone pack it up, high school is done forever, was fun thanks for all the memories."

    Problems:
    1) Pay unbefitting the work/stress load
    2) lack of supplies / teaching material / QoL essentials
    3) Large class sizes
    4) Little to no ability to enforce rules or standards
    5) "PC / Parental" police whereby you risk your job every time you step out of a constantly shrinking box of "acceptable behavior"
    6) Required to spend even more personal time conforming to ever-changing teaching standards.

    Those are all the reasonable ones I can think of.

    Now this has obviously been a giant circle-jerk complaint-off, but in all seriousness, given unlimited means and funding, how do you propose we fix this?

    You say paying teachers more won't do it, fine. Will having state-of-the-art computers, online homework systems, textbooks, and tutors available make everything instantly better?

    What about the class size? We double the number of teachers and get every class back down to 20. How about then? Will it be better then?

    But then you still need to teach common core, so clearly that needs to be rid of. We get rid of every advancement in public education, regardless of the benefits, since say...1990? Then you never have to spend a moment out of school retooling your classwork, because everything is exactly as you learned it.

    But what to do about parents? We cant discipline other people's kids these days. We cant even imply that other children might be misbehaving, or be little shits, or what-have-you without it becoming a PR nightmare.

    So assuming everything else becomes a teacher utopia, what do you do about the parents? Make everyone rich and white so they just naturally assume you're doing your job? A la private school parents? Maybe a few colored parents in the mix, but they act white enough. Everyone knows the poorer you are the more subject to outlandish reactions you are. Would that fix it?


    ----

    Heavy sarcasm aside. I do genuinely think the problems I laid out sum up the problems you are facing as teachers.

    How do you see this playing out? What solutions or changes would make you and your fellow teachers happy? And how do you see the changes you want implemented actually making your life better - in the real world?

    Personally, there is a reason I'm even leaving academia at a college level and not going on to be a professor. Many of these problems exist at a college level as well with as much, if not more, departmental bullshit. I think it is just where we are as a society in this country right now, and nobody I have talked to at the college level has any idea how to make it better.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    How, pray tell, do you plan to get more teachers when old ones are retiring and college graduates have more debt than they could pay off in three lifetimes as a public school teacher?

    Can you grow good teachers? Are they Chia pets?
    In my limited experience in the education industry, I think there are a lot of problems with allocation of resources which need to be identified as distinct from general underfunding.

    Underfunding is no doubt a problem, but schools are also creating their own issues.

    For example, the LAUSD spent tons of money on iPads for classrooms that sat and did nothing because no one actually trained teachers on blending online learning into their classroom. It wasn't helpful at all for anyone, but money was allocated there because it was something that was an easy talking point to demonstrate how on the cutting edge the district was.

    The same also goes for teachers. There are some that are actually very well paid -- too much so to be frank -- because pay is more often based on tenure than merit. I once had a complainant in the office saying the school was discriminating against her based on national origin because she was being assigned to teach a remedial class. The district's argument was that no one could understand her (which I believed since I legitimately had trouble understanding her accent). And her argument was that two years ago she had the highest performing student in Algebra II in all of the district and that couldn't have happened if she was a bad teacher.

    And I do think agree that pay for new teachers would help. That woman was very well compensated teaching public high school, but for the years it would take to get to her pay-scale isn't worth it. Well educated young people (like myself) just end up going to law school or business school or something because it's just not worth it. Compare that to some of the better performing European countries, teaching is considered a prestigious, exclusive, and desirable job. It pays well, so there's competition to good teachers and they are held to standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siatdiat View Post
    Hmm, where is the evidence that teachers need to make more money in order to attract the "talent?" Private schools pay teachers far lower wages than public schools.
    I know that a lot of teachers at my high school (private Catholic) took less money to teach there because of the quality of life difference.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksandra View Post
    This. ^ The problem with teaching has a lot to do with what the teacher has no control over. It used to be the "soccer mom" who defended their children to the death was the exception, not the rule. You cannot control kids when the parents don't support the teachers. Which is like 90% of parents now.
    On the other hand schools are so quick to label kids problem children, and demand that parents take them to see psychologists and get them put on meds, if they act up a tad bit these days. I also know for a fact that this is largely driven by money since schools get more funding when they have kids diagnosed with behavior or learning problems. My daughter was acting up one day and they dragged me in for a conference and threatened to hold her back and whatnot, and after some prying I found out that the whole thing was a misunderstanding at that the teacher didn't even attempt to find out why she was upset. I hear stories like this all the time from other parents, where the teachers don't even try to help students and try and shame the parents.

    Its definitely true that parents don't support teachers as much as they used to, but its hard to do when the schools go out of their way to demonize parents, and try to get all the kids on Ritalin so they don't have to deal with them and so that they can get more money from the government.

  9. #109
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    Education Reform Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gredival View Post
    In my limited experience in the education industry, I think there are a lot of problems with allocation of resources which need to be identified as distinct from general underfunding.

    Underfunding is no doubt a problem, but schools are also creating their own issues.

    For example, the LAUSD spent tons of money on iPads for classrooms that sat and did nothing because no one actually trained teachers on blending online learning into their classroom. It wasn't helpful at all for anyone, but money was allocated there because it was something that was an easy talking point to demonstrate how on the cutting edge the district was.

    The same also goes for teachers. There are some that are actually very well paid -- too much so to be frank -- because pay is more often based on tenure than merit. I once had a complainant in the office saying the school was discriminating against her based on national origin because she was being assigned to teach a remedial class. The district's argument was that no one could understand her (which I believed since I legitimately had trouble understanding her accent). And her argument was that two years ago she had the highest performing student in Algebra II in all of the district and that couldn't have happened if she was a bad teacher.

    And I do think agree that pay for new teachers would help. That woman was very well compensated teaching public high school, but for the years it would take to get to her pay-scale isn't worth it. Well educated young people (like myself) just end up going to law school or business school or something because it's just not worth it.



    I know that a lot of teachers at my high school (private Catholic) took less money to teach there because of the quality of life difference.
    The iPad thing is so hilariously depressing, but it is something I am familiar with as well (not exact same, just general poor allocation of funds).

    And yes, I think with the exception of Ksandra, everyone currently participating in this discussion (me, Byrth, Blubb, you) has (or is working towards) an advanced degree - and none of us would be caught dead teaching HS. That is why my focus is primarily on attracting new blood.

    I've seen too many "trendy" solutions akin to your iPad story, and far too many expensive online homework/tutoring systems, all fail because they never get used properly. Like you said, poor use of funds.

  10. #110

    I don't see how a guy could teach HS without banging students unless he was super fat or retarded. Of the HS teachers I had who you could consider to be 'eligible' I think all but one was banging students or past students.

    On the other hand, any teacher who didn't take shit from the kids was fired.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gredival View Post
    I know that a lot of teachers at my high school (private Catholic) took less money to teach there because of the quality of life difference.
    Subjective. I went to private school and I have friends teaching at private schools now. And while the bureaucratic bullshit isn't as high in private schools, they're a lot more restrictive to their teachers. The school my BFF from high school teaches at (actually the school we went to) has a laundry list of things she can't do, such as having visible tattoos, having a child outside of marriage, being divorced, using birth control, living with a significant other, being openly gay/bi/trans/etc., the list goes on and on. For some people, those things are okay, but for me, well, I've already checked off at least half of the list. It would feel extremely restrictive to me.

    I know that's not really related to the point of this thread at all, but when you said "quality of life" it gave me pause, because that's not the kind of quality of life I want when I think about entering the teaching profession. It's so funny to me, because I've never had a well-paying job, and starting teacher pay in my county is about $14,000 more than I've ever made in my life. And so my thought process is, if I can continue to live modestly with maybe a few more splurges, I'll be perfectly fine and happy making $40k/year, especially doing something that I really enjoy.

    I know I'm looking at it from behind an optimistic view, as I haven't graduated yet. The teaching I've done has been limited and with supervision from another teacher. So I know things are going to change, I fully expect that. But I love teaching now, and I'm confident that won't change. Being happy with my job and making that much money, which to me has always been a lot of money (perspective is a weird thing) would be amazing.

    And now back to the pessimistic view of everyone else. I'm fully aware that what I've seen is very idealized, though getting into the classrooms has always been a good reality check. So I know it's not going to be sunshine and roses, but even knowing that, I'm still excited. *shrug*

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeganCrossfitWOWRaidKILLA View Post
    I don't see how a guy could teach HS without banging students unless he was super fat or retarded. Of the HS teachers I had who you could consider to be 'eligible' I think all but one was banging students or past students.
    Maybe because he's not a fucking pervert who uses his position of power to get a quick nut? What the actual fuck.

  13. #113

    I'll throw out an idea that's probably a little crazy, but would quite likely (in time) address what I consider the primary problem - liability and tort reform/immunity for school districts from lawsuits. If frivolous lawsuits were thrown out from the get go, we never would've gotten to this point. Parents would've been forced to deal with administrations' decisions, even if they weren't on board. The way it's been for 20-25 years is as follows: parent says "lawsuit", administration backs down. Every. Single. Time. There can be no discipline in a system like this. And administrations will never make the hard choice to support teachers' disciplinary decisions if the ensuing lawsuit would bankrupt their district.

    It's easy to see how we got to this point when you think about the implications of a system without enforceable disciplinary measures, and I think we have to go back to that starting point in order to correct the problems.

  14. #114
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    To start off:

    Do I think I should be paid 150k a year? No. That is the amount I think you'd have to pay for these "brilliant teachers" you have been talking about.

    Just fyi LAUSD teachers make on average 75k +, so I would not consider that estimate overwhelming.

    As to how to fix things. I think a lot can't come from the schools. Part of it IS talking about it and stop getting people to blame teachers for everything. People need to start going to their towns and vote to pass decent budgets. I think that extra curricular classes should be a requirement for all schools and the gov't should pay accordingly. I think one course requirement should be cooking classes, because schools shouldn't just be about college, it should be about helping students have better lives.

    I also think that the testing should get replaced by a committee that looks at the schools and sees what needs to be done to help based on the students' backgrounds. I agree with byrnth that the tests should have been a way to see how to help the schools not how to punish them.

  15. #115
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    I hate that the average pay for LAUSD teachers is higher than the average pay for a non-tenured professor in a STEM field at a university.

    That is just so painful to me on so many levels. It's not like HS teachers work longer hours than (non-tenured) professors, because they really, really, really do not. Nor are there fewer political snafus at the college level.

    Welp. Like I said, there are reasons I'm not doing it. Sure as shit won't let somebody pay me less than my time is worth, lol.

    ---

    Also you think public funding should be devoted to a cooking class? You see that as one way to fix this problem?

    Something that even the most assblastingly autistic among us could teach themselves from 5 minutes a day online?

    Think I just lost my desire to attempt to have a reasonable discussion about this.

  16. #116
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksannyi View Post
    Subjective. I went to private school and I have friends teaching at private schools now. And while the bureaucratic bullshit isn't as high in private schools, they're a lot more restrictive to their teachers. The school my BFF from high school teaches at (actually the school we went to) has a laundry list of things she can't do, such as having visible tattoos, having a child outside of marriage, being divorced, using birth control, living with a significant other, being openly gay/bi/trans/etc., the list goes on and on. For some people, those things are okay, but for me, well, I've already checked off at least half of the list. It would feel extremely restrictive to me.

    I know that's not really related to the point of this thread at all, but when you said "quality of life" it gave me pause, because that's not the kind of quality of life I want when I think about entering the teaching profession. It's so funny to me, because I've never had a well-paying job, and starting teacher pay in my county is about $14,000 more than I've ever made in my life. And so my thought process is, if I can continue to live modestly with maybe a few more splurges, I'll be perfectly fine and happy making $40k/year, especially doing something that I really enjoy.

    I know I'm looking at it from behind an optimistic view, as I haven't graduated yet. The teaching I've done has been limited and with supervision from another teacher. So I know things are going to change, I fully expect that. But I love teaching now, and I'm confident that won't change. Being happy with my job and making that much money, which to me has always been a lot of money (perspective is a weird thing) would be amazing.

    And now back to the pessimistic view of everyone else. I'm fully aware that what I've seen is very idealized, though getting into the classrooms has always been a good reality check. So I know it's not going to be sunshine and roses, but even knowing that, I'm still excited. *shrug*
    Personally, when I refer to private schools, I am talking about secular ones. Not religious schools. Not sure if other people are though.

  17. #117

    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    I hate that the average pay for LAUSD teachers is higher than the average pay for a non-tenured professor in a STEM field at a university.

    That is just so painful to me on so many levels. It's not like HS teachers work longer hours than (non-tenured) professors, because they really, really, really do not. Nor are there fewer political snafus at the college level.

    Welp. Like I said, there are reasons I'm not doing it. Sure as shit won't let somebody pay me less than my time is worth, lol.

    ---

    Also you think public funding should be devoted to a cooking class? You see that as one way to fix this problem?

    Something that even the most assblastingly autistic among us could teach themselves from 5 minutes a day online?

    Think I just lost my desire to attempt to have a reasonable discussion about this.
    To be fair, having a well-educated public is something that benefits everyone. We have MANDATORY education for that very reason. There is nothing in any level of education that cannot, in this day and age, be learned on your own if you have the desire and access to the internet. It's not completely ridiculous to say that we should ensure everyone has simple life skills before we release them into the world as (hopefully responsible and self-sufficient) adults.

  18. #118
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    Education Reform Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blubbartron View Post
    To be fair, having a well-educated public is something that benefits everyone. We have MANDATORY education for that very reason. There is nothing in any level of education that cannot, in this day and age, be learned on your own if you have the desire and access to the internet. It's not completely ridiculous to say that we should ensure everyone has simple life skills before we release them into the world as (hopefully responsible and self-sufficient) adults.
    I completely agree. However teaching yourself cooking requires no prerequisites, many subjects do, even if you plan to self-teach.

    I just am so far taken aback that the response to, what I considered to be, 6 reasonably punctuated talking points for how to effect true education reform from the teacher perspective was "we need cooking classes".

    Like...

    I just don't know what to do with that.

  19. #119
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    I hate that the average pay for LAUSD teachers is higher than the average pay for a non-tenured professor in a STEM field at a university.

    That is just so painful to me on so many levels. It's not like HS teachers work longer hours than (non-tenured) professors, because they really, really, really do not. Nor are there fewer political snafus at the college level.

    Welp. Like I said, there are reasons I'm not doing it. Sure as shit won't let somebody pay me less than my time is worth, lol.

    ---

    Also you think public funding should be devoted to a cooking class? You see that as one way to fix this problem?

    Something that even the most assblastingly autistic among us could teach themselves from 5 minutes a day online?

    Think I just lost my desire to attempt to have a reasonable discussion about this.

    Cooking/nutrition. There is a reason there is an obesity epidemic in this country. You overestimate what many can do. Kids cannot study when hungry. My kids are starving and could learn how to cook healthy food for decent money.

    Do I think that can solve the teaching problem? No, I think it is a valuable thing that schools actually CAN do to help educate people.

  20. #120
    You wouldn't know that though because you've demonstrably never picked up a book nor educated yourself on the matter. Let me guess, overweight housewife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SathFenrir View Post
    I completely agree. However teaching yourself cooking requires no prerequisites, many subjects do, even if you plan to self-teach.

    I just am so far taken aback that the response to, what I considered to be, 6 reasonably punctuated talking points for how to effect true education reform from the teacher perspective was "we need cooking classes".

    Like...

    I just don't know what to do with that.
    It was under the bubble of needing extra curricular classes. I think kids need art, music, cooking etc. Cooking was a major example of those that I think is extremely important.

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