Transgender Philosophy (Questions, Ideology)

[Cream Soda]

While that's technically and politically correct, if someone took me that far w/o letting me know anything, I'm probably not going to care about not hurting their feelings at that point if I don't find out you have a dick until you take off your pants

Edit: Not in the sense that I don't acknowledge the gender identity of transgenders/sexuals in general, but in this specific situation, I'd probably say some ignorant shit just to piss them off.

[Moss]

That's a lot different than thinking, per Moss, that it's not "the sex you're attracted to." You're attracted to women, and it's a woman. I understand if having different genitals than what you expected is a deal breaker, but it's ignorant to say "that's not a woman" or whatever you're thinking.

So what makes a woman, a woman, per your definition? If the person identifies with being a woman (gender)? I realize that is an oversimplification of gender but I'm trying to be concise.

I would say your sexual organs largely dictate if you are a woman, so perhaps the disconnect is that I define "woman" according to sex while you are defining it according to gender. Does that make sense?

[Moss]

When most people say they're attracted to a woman what they're really saying is they're attracted to features we consider feminine, including the assumed vagina.

I've started to notice a lot of people on these forums have the exact same ideology, but the labels we take for granted mean different things to different people. It's no surprise honestly.

This is probably a better way of wording what I was getting at, but I'll come back later and re-read when I'm not at work so I can organize my thoughts.

[Aksannyi]

A woman is someone who identifies as being a woman. If for whatever reason, a transgender woman does not have surgery, that doesn't make her any less a woman.

Generally, I'd state that you're attracted to women who also exhibit the sexual characteristics of a woman, meaning they have a vagina. I recognize that the world is probably never going to be such that people love who they want to love without worrying what's between their legs, or any other number of factors. So to say "that's no woman," is just ignorant. Whether or not you're attracted to a transgender woman who has a penis is your prerogative. I'd agree that it needs to be disclosed before any sexual activity generally to avoid surprises, and because in many states, it's still legal to murder someone in which "trans fear" counts as a defense, meaning you were freaked out enough to want to kill someone. It's considered a valid defense for murder. Obviously that makes it harder for transgender people to date.

I understand the desire for certain sexual organs. It's just not fair to use a slur toward someone because they don't have what you expected, or to purposely misgender someone because of it.

[Moss]

perhaps I should be using the word female instead?

[Aksannyi]

It depends if you're talking about gender or sex, and using the terms 'female' and 'male' doesn't necessarily mean either one, so not really. Maybe it's my military background, but I call myself female all the time, even though that's probably the more clinical term. So I think (although it's wordy) it's just easier to explain what you mean, in order to avoid confusion.

That's just what I try to do though.

[Salodin]

Ok Aks, so you understand every one else's point. Yes, a person who identifies as woman is a woman. But what about that word makes them identify with it? Why are they woman and not potatoe?

The majority of people, for the majority of time as we know it, have used the term woman to mean a person with a vagina. Only recently has this changed, and for the most part the people on these forums are accepting of this. That doesn't change the fact that when I say I like women, what I mean is I like women with vaginas, not women with penises.

Edit: You know what, we do have a word for this. It's called sex. I'm attracted to women (the sex and gender), but not women (if your sex is male but gender is female).

[Moss]

Also, if your most recent post (post 24) was directed at me, would you mind quoting mine and responding to my points? It would make things easier to follow and keep me from arguing points that aren't directed at me. For example, I haven't mentioned using slurs or said "that's no woman," which is clearly an inflammatory statement.

[Aksannyi]

Also, if your most recent post (post 24) was directed at me, would you mind quoting mine and responding to my points? It would make things easier to follow and keep me from arguing points that aren't directed at me. For example, I haven't mentioned using slurs or said "that's no woman," which is clearly an inflammatory statement.

I can quote you, for future posts. I'm admittedly lazy about quoting and often have to go back and edit quotes in if someone else posts. I also didn't mean to imply that you said that, or that you would say that. I am giving hypothetical examples, which I recognize is often faulty.

[Mazmaz]

Ok Aks, so you understand every one else's point. Yes, a person who identifies as woman is a woman. But what about that word makes them identify with it? Why are they woman and not potatoe?

The majority of people, for the majority of time as we know it, have used the term woman to mean a person with a vagina. Only recently has this changed, and for the most part the people on these forums are accepting of this. That doesn't change the fact that when I say I like women, what I mean is I like women with vaginas, not women with penises.

Edit: You know what, we do have a word for this. It's called sex. I'm attracted to women (the sex and gender), but not women (if your sex is male but gender is female).

You like cisgender women. If you need to make the distinction that you are not and will never be attracted to transgender women, you would simply say, "I like cisgender women". This is in response to Moss as well.

It's a general good practice to learn to use the cis or cisgender terminology when discussing these points.

[Salodin]

It's a general good practice to learn to use the cis or cisgender terminology when discussing these points.

I don't ask a pretty lady for her phone number and then follow it up with "by the way, are you cis gendered?" That's where confusion and sometimes frustration/anger comes in because when you see a person carry themselves as a woman, you expect then to be that sex. Outside of transgendered topics, when the word woman is used, it is assumed that the sex is just that.

[Aksannyi]

I don't ask a pretty lady for her phone number and then follow it up with "by the way, are you cis gendered?" That's where confusion and sometimes frustration/anger comes in because when you see a person carry themselves as a woman, you expect then to be that sex. Outside of transgendered topics, when the word woman is used, it is assumed that the sex is just that.

Well I think that's part of why this kind of thread is necessary, why this kind of education is necessary. Saying that everyone just naturally assumes that a woman they see is cisgender accidentally (not purposely) erases the existence of transgender women. We as a society have become conditioned to seeing women look a certain way and men look a certain way. This goes beyond transgender issues, as well.

It is a problem when people automatically assume who someone is by their outward appearance. That's been a problem long before people started talking about trans issues. I know it's hard, but we do have to stop looking at people and judging based on assumptions. I mean I get it, everyone does it. But the fact of the matter is, people who are transgender are becoming more and more accepted. They are having earlier and better access to hormones which aid in transition, and they are able to successfully transition and pass as their gender more and more. So eventually, we're going to have to navigate that as a society, where we stop automatically assuming based on appearances and where we begin to acknowledge that there are both transgender and cis people. I don't see that happening soon, but maybe eventually? That's an idealistic viewpoint since we are preconditioned to judge based on appearance, but that is one of the goals of trying to educate people on transgender issues in threads like this one.

I hope that makes sense.

[Mazmaz]

I don't ask a pretty lady for her phone number and then follow it up with "by the way, are you cis gendered?" That's where confusion and sometimes frustration/anger comes in because when you see a person carry themselves as a woman, you expect then to be that sex. Outside of transgendered topics, when the word woman is used, it is assumed that the sex is just that.

I'm not having this debate with you again. Just because you assume that "woman" refers to and matches the sex of someone, doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it is. You also don't ask a woman "by the way, do you have a big clitoris".

If you're going to contribute and/or ask questions in the transgender philosophy thread, you need to take that "Other"ing and "abnormal" bullshit out of here. It's almost like I didn't just post on the first page explaining this shit already.

[Salodin]

I'm not having this debate with you again. Just because you assume that "woman" refers to and matches the sex of someone, doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it is. You also don't ask a woman "by the way, do you have a big clitoris".

If you're going to contribute and/or ask questions in the transgender philosophy thread, you need to take that "Other"ing and "abnormal" bullshit out of here. It's almost like I didn't just post on the first page explaining this shit already.

What debate? You're upset because people won't just stop using a word the way it's been used for thousands of years. That's bullshit, and I'm illustrating why. I'm not arguing the way it should be, I'm arguing the way it is and why, and why people like you need to be understanding of why transgenders are often misunderstood by people who don't personally know one.

This discussion only came about because some one gave the example of a transgendered woman not disclosing such until after the pants came off, and why when some one says they're a woman people automatically assume there's a vagina between them legs. Being upset or angry is not homophobic, that's not insensitive, that's miscommunication because some one forgot to mention an important fact about themselves when the the assumption around the world is that if you carry yourself as a woman then people expect woman anatomy as well.

No one asks how tight a woman's vagina is because that's not relevant. Having a penis but saying you're a woman is. Feel free to blow that out of proportion all you want though. It's not abnormal to make assumptions based on labels, that's what we use them for.

[Aksannyi]

Protip: (and this should be put in the OP)

Transgender is not a noun, it is an adjective. I'm not a cisgender, I'm a cisgender person. Hey is not a transgender, she is a transgender woman.

No one asks how tight a woman's vagina is because that's not relevant. Having a penis but saying you're a woman is. Feel free to blow that out of proportion all you want though. It's not abnormal to make assumptions based on labels, that's what we use them for.

Not true, in fact, the fact that I have kids always for some reason seems to make that very subject come up. Possible that I've been on dates with some terrible fucking people (and I don't dispute that's the case for some of them) but yeah, people do ask shit like that. It's certainly not appropriate, but people do ask fucked up questions like that, just like I'm sure there are women who sit on a first date and ask the guy how long his dong is.

And what do you want them to say? They are a woman. I mean yes, it would be prudent to mention a penis before any sexual activity happens. But that doesn't mean that said person is not a woman. A transgender woman is well within her rights to identify herself as a woman, because that's what she is.

And you are right that it's not abnormal to use labels, but that's what people are trying to stop people from doing. If it means only one person is educated at a time, then so be it, but that's why I'm here, that's why hey is here, that's why Mazmaz is here, that's why Niro posted her thread a while ago (and certainly she can join in this one and be quite welcome, as would be anyone on BG who is also transgender or an ally). Its purpose absolutely is to educate, if it comes off as argumentative it's not meant to be, at least coming from me - I am here to educate people on what it means to be transgender, even though I don't have the firsthand perspective that hey or Niro would have.

[Salodin]

1. Yes, you date weirdos cause us normal men don't ask that.

2. I agree 100% with you, Mazmaz is just blowing things out of proportion/context as usual.

[Aksannyi]

On point #1 - fair enough, I've had a couple ask me and I figured it must be that I just attract major douchebags.

[Salodin]

No, all women attract douchebags. You just make is the mistake of giving them the time of the day. Lol

[Aksannyi]

Fair enough, though those were both a while ago. I like to think I've learned my lesson.

Anyway, this is veering off topic, so I'll cut this conversation now before Bane does. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to further berate my taste in dates.

[Mazmaz]

What debate? You're upset because people won't just stop using a word the way it's been used for thousands of years. That's bullshit, and I'm illustrating why. I'm not arguing the way it should be, I'm arguing the way it is and why, and why people like you need to be understanding of why transgenders are often misunderstood by people who don't personally know one.

This discussion only came about because some one gave the example of a transgendered woman not disclosing such until after the pants came off, and why when some one says they're a woman people automatically assume there's a vagina between them legs. Being upset or angry is not homophobic, that's not insensitive, that's miscommunication because some one forgot to mention an important fact about themselves when the the assumption around the world is that if you carry yourself as a woman then people expect woman anatomy as well.

No one asks how tight a woman's vagina is because that's not relevant. Having a penis but saying you're a woman is. Feel free to blow that out of proportion all you want though. It's not abnormal to make assumptions based on labels, that's what we use them for.

Go back and read my first post. You and Moss were confused about what the proper label to use was and I educated you on it. The difference now is, you are resisting using the label that will result in having a proper discussion. The OP says that posts have to be respectful, and I'm here to tell you you're being disrespectful with your line of questioning and statement-making (also known as cisplaining) because you are creating an "Other"ing effect in the thread. It's disrespectful in the same way that your use of "transgenders" and "transgendered" is. If you're confused about why, let me know.

Also, I'm concerned about the overwhelming amount of cis voices in the transgender thread and wish there was more trans participation.