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Thread: SoA Enmity Retesting     submit to reddit submit to twitter submit to tumblr

  1. #21
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    I've got a big list of 0 CE spells incoming. just a few more things to check.
    I assume they did this when the 0 CE pet ability adjustments were done after the bitching on the initial enmity adjustment. I dont know if this is gamebreaking news or not. i mean not getting any hate for various debuffs/spells/abilitys, ecxept for VE that decays over time quickly hmmm...

  2. #22
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    So, I've gone through pretty much every action that won't kill the mob with my current jobs out here. results

    1 CE: silence,slow,para,addle,repose
    0 CE: haste,aquaveil,blink,stoneskin,protect,shell,barsp ells,auspice,esuna,sacrifice,regen,reraise,invis,s neak,deodorize,erase,boost-spells,divine seal,pianissimo,aflatus solace,aflatus misery,divine caress(0VE as well),sacrosanctity, poisona,paralyna
    ,blindna,silena,stona,viruna,cursna,phalanx,Sentin el,cover(0VE),fealty,chivalry,divine emblem,palisade.

    Cures. I retested this thoroughly. Pretty much, it's freaking Tranquil Heart. On WHM/BRD, or PLD/WHM, I get 0 CE from cures for 0. On PLD/RUN, I got 1 CE. Tranquil Heart Floors a 1 CE cure to 0 CE.

    I've got some other stuff coming, but it'll be a bit. And I need to get out here with /blm or /rdm and test some of the blm enfeebs..

  3. #23
    Old Odin
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    I thought the 1 CE removment only applied to pet job abilitys, guess we were wrong lol

    this could tough be potential gamebreaking for pet job solos, or pet group fights.

  4. #24
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    Enlight = 20 CE 180 VE <- Super useful as a testing tool
    Palisade, 0 CE 1800 VE.

    440 healing + Tranquil Heart
    Cura 40 CE per target
    Cura III 81 CE per target

    I need to go learn Cura II, so I can test it, lol. Then try this again with 500 skill so I can reverse calculate the base enmity before Tranquil heart. Cause that 81 CE is just too weird to be the base.

    Edit:Retested with 500 skill, then realize i didn't really need to since Tranquil heart values are quantified. 440 skill would be enmity -19. 100 CE * .81 = 81...

    Furthermore, the CE values were already on BG wiki. Although they apparently do vary by amount cured, somehow.

  5. #25
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    Probably my last enmity post for the moment unless I think of something else to test.

    It seems the flooring 1 CE cures to 0 CE is not unique to tranquil heart. With even -1 enmity on PLD, my cures would yield 0 CE. This most likely holds true for all 1 CE actions. The -1 enmity takes 1 CE down to 0.99, then that gets floored to 0. I assume this happens cause they removed the 1 CE minimum.

  6. #26
    Ridill
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    I can verify that blind is 1 CE. It seems like this whole 0 CE thing was part of that whiny about avatars holding hate and stuff thing. I guess all buffs got put to 0 CE and offensive actions to 1? Also iirc from old kanican testing curas were weird. Like it was a set amount based on various tiers of amount cured.

    As far as what else to test I'd have to go back and look at what things they said they changed. I they did a bunch of whm, rdm, blm buffs and debuffs that I never tested but looks like you have now well CE anyways they might have changed the VE too. I retested brd and cures awhile back... um nin spells I think got changed too? Think that was it except the dmg enmity formula.

  7. #27
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    Some more enmity tests. My boredom is good for our knowledge base. <,<;

    Batutta 450 CE 900 VE
    Pflug 450 CE 900
    Rayke 640 CE 1260
    Odyllic Subterfuge 1 CE

    Once again, I hate you RUN. Sooo many high enmity JA. I didn't feel like waiting around for an hour to tests Odyllic's VE. May edit it in later. And I guess I'll go get all this on the wiki.

  8. #28
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    I can verify that blind is 1 CE. It seems like this whole 0 CE thing was part of that whiny about avatars holding hate and stuff thing. I guess all buffs got put to 0 CE and offensive actions to 1? Also iirc from old kanican testing curas were weird. Like it was a set amount based on various tiers of amount cured.

    As far as what else to test I'd have to go back and look at what things they said they changed. I they did a bunch of whm, rdm, blm buffs and debuffs that I never tested but looks like you have now well CE anyways they might have changed the VE too. I retested brd and cures awhile back... um nin spells I think got changed too? Think that was it except the dmg enmity formula.
    ecxept that even debuffs with 1 CE go down to 0 CE with -50 enmity on... at least I couldnt got constant hate from my enmity tests with slow para silence dispel blind etc.

  9. #29
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    Some more enmity tests. My boredom is good for our knowledge base. <,<;

    Batutta 450 CE 900 VE
    Pflug 450 CE 900
    Rayke 640 CE 1260
    Odyllic Subterfuge 1 CE

    Once again, I hate you RUN. Sooo many high enmity JA. I didn't feel like waiting around for an hour to tests Odyllic's VE. May edit it in later. And I guess I'll go get all this on the wiki.
    Doh never did get around to testing the merit abilities and sp2. Though I could swear I had done pflug.... Can't really blame you on sp2 though.... sp1 took forever with it's rediculous amounts of emnity

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    ecxept that even debuffs with 1 CE go down to 0 CE with -50 enmity on... at least I couldnt got constant hate from my enmity tests with slow para silence dispel blind etc.
    Don't quote me on this but I'm half sure it wasn't always this way. I don't think it always rounded down. But I'd have to really comb thru kanican to be sure and at this point it's moot

  11. #31
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    It definitely used to round down, but the minimum value was 1.

  12. #32
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    Yeah, back in the day, getting 0 CE was impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Doh never did get around to testing the merit abilities and sp2. Though I could swear I had done pflug.... Can't really blame you on sp2 though.... sp1 took forever with it's rediculous amounts of emnity
    well, I've got the CE for SP2 already. Was really surprised it was only 1 CE. So testing the VE is just a matter of using it and waiting for it to turn back to ard. I just didn't wanna stand out there for an hour to do that.

    I'm going to have some damage enmity numbers in a bit here. Just wanna get a spread of levels so we can figure out the whole thing.

  13. #33
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    well, I'm just gonna post the one I've got so far. Not long til maintenance, and I'm getting annoyed at not being able to find a 101 mob..

    DMG dealt enmity

    lvl 100 mob
    Code:
    DMG	mod	calc	actual
    140	0.476	66.64	66
    54	0.476	25.704	25
    280	0.476	133.28	133
    2077	0.476	988.652	988
    So 0.476 for CE mod works well with the samples I've got.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    well, I'm just gonna post the one I've got so far. Not long til maintenance, and I'm getting annoyed at not being able to find a 101 mob..

    DMG dealt enmity

    lvl 100 mob
    Code:
    DMG	mod	calc	actual
    140	0.476	66.64	66
    54	0.476	25.704	25
    280	0.476	133.28	133
    2077	0.476	988.652	988
    So 0.476 for CE mod works well with the samples I've got.
    The old CE mod was 80 / { floor( 31 * [ Level ] / 50 ) + 6 } with VE being 3 X that. So previously 100 would have been 80/68 assuming they just changed the denominator still 80/168 works except on the 2077 which is 1 off which could easily happen in the test especially against higher level mobs and with higher enmity values like that that take longer to test. This is exactly +100 to the denominator which rather interesting/seemingly likely because how simplistic it is but also for other reasons I'll outline below

    It doesn't seem like Kaeko every made a formula (possibly because it changed in what was old mid level( for the cure CE mod but just listed individual values. That said at higher levels it seems to progress similarly to the dmg formula so deriving from that and the listed values the old cure CE mod was 40 / { floor( 31 * [ Level+1 ] / 50 ) + 8 }. They also never derived values above 75 were and now you can't since it's changed but going by that formula old 99 would've had a CE mod of 40/70. The new one which I have tested is 40/170. I understand this is a single data point but this is also exactly +100 to denominator as well.

    My conjecture is that the both dmg and cure changes which happened at the same time basically just added 100 to each denominator while the rest of the formula remained the same

    Edit: I just noticed that todays update just changed dmg enmity from higher level mobs again... <.<

  15. #35
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    So, a page back, I did a test for dmg enmity on lvl 100 mobs(pre-update)

    Since there was a enmity adjustment to dmg dealt enmity on 100 or greater mobs, I decided to do a quick retest.

    I'm now very confused.

    Code:
    lvl 100	post update		
    DMG	mod	CE	actual
    37	0.476	17.612	17
    1786	0.476	850.136	840
    3131	0.476	1490.35	1489
    2680	0.476	1275.68	1276
    Kinda weird how one test was 1 CE too high, and another 1 CE to low.. but still. I did this expecting a major change, and I've got.... nothing? So.. did SE screw up? Or did they change something else? Maybe VE?

    I've seen at least 1 report of PLD having an easier time holding hate, post update, but atm I can't tell why. <,<

  16. #36
    Chram
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    It's definitely noticeable. Trion can hold hate off my RDM decently well now, while prepatch he'd lose it in under 10 seconds.

  17. #37
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    So, a page back, I did a test for dmg enmity on lvl 100 mobs(pre-update)

    Since there was a enmity adjustment to dmg dealt enmity on 100 or greater mobs, I decided to do a quick retest.

    I'm now very confused.

    Code:
    lvl 100	post update		
    DMG	mod	CE	actual
    37	0.476	17.612	17
    1786	0.476	850.136	840
    3131	0.476	1490.35	1489
    2680	0.476	1275.68	1276
    Kinda weird how one test was 1 CE too high, and another 1 CE to low.. but still. I did this expecting a major change, and I've got.... nothing? So.. did SE screw up? Or did they change something else? Maybe VE?

    I've seen at least 1 report of PLD having an easier time holding hate, post update, but atm I can't tell why. <,<
    i hope you included the part where SE said that +enmity and -enmity affect how much dmg you loose when getting (if you got hit at all). The enmity adjustments are still lackluster, getting there slowly, but I fear at some point they will break melee tanking altogether.

  18. #38
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    DMG taken enmity loss is untested as of the original post SoA nerf. And it's a pain in the ass to test. So I just don't take any DMG during my tests(not wearing any enmity+/- either.) Which has it's own share of issues.

  19. #39
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    For the mathy ppl in here. How many different mob levels will I need for us to get an idea for the enmity mod curve? And how much do I need from a given mob to be accurate? Like one to two high dmg ws tests?

    Trying to make this a little more efficient.

  20. #40
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    I would do 2-3 levels. Based on what you got before and the seemingly lack of change I'd say all they did was add 100 to denominator just would be good to verify. As far are within I'd do a high and mid dmg and I'd test that specific dmg until I get the same answer 3 times in a row. The pure tediousness and amount of steps make making mistakes ridiculously easy. I mean of the 4 dmgs you did 1 was 1 under and 1 was 1 over very easy miscounts. The 10 under one is troubling unless there is some 10 ce test spell you were using since a miscount of 10 spells is highly unlikely. A possibility is you got the wrong level. Assuming my theory about the CE mod formula change is correct then for that dmg 840 would be the correct amount for a level 102 mob.

    Lastly in order to minimize mistakes and annoyness factor I tend to minimize the number of steps/ calculcalculations even if it makes it take longer. For example I generally pull with a 3rd so I don't have to factor in pull enmity. It also helps on the higher level tests since you can use it to sleep. Which hellps keep your chat log clean and minimizes the number of attacks you take making it easier to not get hit by some lucky 1 dmg crit. Also can use it for buffs etc. No enmity gear merits traits unless that is getting tested and then only on that character. And no +4 does not cancel out a -4. Generally the only thing I will do on the character who is preforming the action I am trying to quantify I will only do that on it unless I need get past the pullers CE in which case I will do something big on that and the testing character to keep them at the same but higher than er. As such the first attempt I only narrow down the range as bigger testers will overshoot you by a bit then kill the mob and stary over from right before I took hate before. Even with all this I find small mistakes. I also find big mistakes that no one could be simple human error sometimes which is why i recommended a few tests at a specific dmg. For example when I was doing RUN sp1 I ended up getting a good 5 different amounts or VE before I finally started getting the same consistent answer. And one of them was a good 4k too low. I'll accept missing 1-2 hell with that many even 10 missed threnodies. But 20!?! All I can say is sometimes the game just doesn't calculate it right.

    As far as what have they done to chnage dmg enmity.... the only thing I can think of is VE. But since I'm not aware of any VE testing done before today but after soa changes it would be hard to prove 100%. Though given the how simple the soa changes appear to be for cure and dmg and also because ratio of cure ve and ce stayed exactly the same it's a fair assumption to say than before last update dmg ce and ve ratios also stayed th same. If we find out they are still the same the only thing I can think of is maybe messing with the weirdness that is magical ws enmity

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