Live Presentation Event: The Future of Final Fantasy XI (03/19/2015)

[Burningthought]

So the monthly fee isn't changing. They're winding down development because everything was based off the ps2 version and hardware support for the equipment is ending. The native app is going to have some sort of business model but they don't know what they want to do with it just yet. Character transfers to the native app are unlikely and it'll be separate servers. They want to push it out for ios and android ASAP so they plan on releasing get content bit by bit like per expansion.the mobile port may also get exclusive content.

I'm on tablet right now but the digest for freshly picked has been posted.

[Tidane]

I can't stop laughing, having read that. I completely understand why they would want to stop development on FFXI, from a business standpoint. They've seen the declining population of FFXI and attributed that to the type of game. They are told that the remaining PS2 devkits are reaching EOL. When they're told of the cost to redo the Windows client, they decided that doing any more than maintenance isn't worth the potential returns. I get that.

What absolutely doesn't make sense is taking FFXI and making a completely new version for mobiles. If you were tying it into the same servers and continuing development on the game, it might make sense. The only people interested in an FFXI mobile client are those that play the game. What is good about FFXI doesn't lend itself well to a mobile device, so it is obvious that the IP is just being leveraged to try to get people who have liked FFXI to play the mobile version while designing a game that is for the casual, mobile crowd. I can't see how this is going to work out for them in any positive way.

As a developer, all of their reasons for discontinuation of development on the current FFXI are shitty excuses. That isn't to say they are completely indefensible, but it is obvious that word was given that they didn't want to spend any more money on FFXI development, unless it was in the mobile space. Outsourcing it to Nexon just makes everything that much more amusing. They fact that they have metrics and beliefs that the ROI on doing this mobile thing is better than continuing to invest in FFXI is mind boggling. I can only imagine that Nexon is paying for most of the development.

Completely redoing the PC client is a large undertaking, but it isn't as massive as they make it seem. The ROI is almost certainly not there to make it worthwhile, because just redoing the client doesn't fix the real problems (which are a product of the servers). They could fix both of them, but I don't see a ton of players running back to the game as a result of that.

Why couldn't they have just announced they were done with FFXI and moved on? Seems so much more respectable.

[Sephiran]

While the previous two posts have referenced it, here is the latest Freshly Picked.

I have to say, it just keeps looking worse. First off, I had a feeling that Rhapsodies was going to introduce no new areas (aside from maybe a battlefield or two). The reward for ultimate completion seems to be unfettered access to content and Trust NPC's. That's actually not a bad idea for a final reward. But the fetch questing that's implied to comprise the bulk of the mission line is going to suck...especially since it's probably not gonna take us anywhere new. Suffice to say, this all looks pretty bleak.

And now for some highlights, if you can call them that...

Many of the resources can only be made in integrated environments, and since the PlayStation development equipment is at the core of this, if the PlayStation 2 tools can no longer be used it will not be possible to continue development.

So...the reason they're pulling the plug is because PS2 IDE's are used to develop the game for Windows and their retirement has left them at a loss of tools? Well, now we know why Adoulin retained PS2 release in Japan.

Q: Why are you ending major version updates?
A: Considering that we would like everyone to continue playing the game as long as possible, we have to adopt the aforementioned plan to reduce spending. We would also like our development staff to focus on new projects, and in order to continue running the game with a compact team, we have no choice but to stop major version updates.

That makes no sense at all. You're going to see how long FFXI takes to starve to death.

Q: Will the native application be a completely separate game from the Windows version of FFXI that will continue even after March 2016?
A: As far as accounts go, this will be a separate game, but it will be the same game in the sense that it continues the enjoyment of FFXI. What we’d like to clear up is that the native application won’t take over the current FFXI operations, but Square Enix will continue to operate and manage the current FFXI, and the native application will be developed as a new FFXI.

You're doing much more work than you need to. Much, much, more work.

Q: Will there be any changes to the monthly fee with the end of service for PS2 / Xbox 360 versions?
A: Since it has been run this way for a long time, there are currently no plans to change it.

Speak of the devil, myself and a few others in this thread just mentioned that. Also, strike one up for my friend who got it right.

Q: If the player population increases in future, although it’ll be less frequent than now, is there any possibility to change the plans so you will continue releasing major version updates for the PC version?
A: This is difficult. While this would solve the business standpoint, it wouldn't be a solution to the development environment issue. For example, if we’re short on people we can cover this, but because the development environment is in a tight spot, we would be limited when making new content. We would like to come up with something, but we can’t simply say we’ll do it without thinking it through.

Perhaps the only thing I wanted to see, and it's obfuscated behind corporate PR lexicon.

Q: Can’t you remake FFXI as a brand-new MMO and continue service?
A: MMORPGs were originally games that were played on PCs; however, we wanted to make this playable on the console and this was what started FFXI. Just like how we challenged ourselves when people voiced their concerns about a FINAL FANTASY MMO, we would like to continue pushing the boundaries of FFXI to release the game for iOS or Android devices in order to expand Vana’diel.

Yet so willing to do it for FFXIV...

On another note, I've never seen Matsui seem so downcast--a stark contrast to his normally happy and chipper self.

[Sechs]

Would you feel comfortable in his place, saying the things he had to say?

[Sephiran]

Would you feel comfortable in his place, saying the things he had to say?

If this was the last resort for FFXI, then he has nothing to feel guilty about. Fact is, up until March 19, SE really had been acting like they were in for the long haul as NynJa said. Something changed and this "Vana'diel Project" got announced overnight. He is the producer and possess the highest authority over how funding should be spent with regards to FFXI. He chose to engage in this mobile phone bullshit and pulled the trigger. I certainly hope he got paid well to do so.

But yeah, we're going out with a whimper, not a bang. That's for sure now.

[fantasticdan]

Why couldn't they have just announced they were done with FFXI and moved on? Seems so much more respectable.

SE essentially is done with FFXI, they're just farming the code out to nexon for potentially free returns.

He is the producer and possess the highest authority over how funding should be spent with regards to FFXI. He chose to engage in this mobile phone bullshit and pulled the trigger.

windmillsdonotworkthatway.jpg

[Sechs]

If this was the last resort for FFXI, then he has nothing to feel guilty about. Fact is, up until March 19, SE really had been acting like they were in for the long haul as NynJa said.

My Idea is that SE had meant to close FFXI for a while.
Matsui somehow managed to receive some (small) resources with the idea of relaunching the game and making a better and more profitable thing for SE.
He's been given a timeline and some results to reach.
He failed to do that, and they've been forced to head another way.

As far as Noxon into the project, let's not assume it's SE who asked them to outsource FFXI. Maybe it's Noxon who contacted SE because they were interested in it somehow.

[KetSC]

As for mobile game, there has been tons of mobile games and FFXI being one isn't surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if it were popular (not sure what type of mobile game but it is popular enough that they keep making them and people keep buying them regardless of which FF this is). So I don't see it as a big deal.

As for XI still having full subs (the discussion a page back), personally I think keeping FFXI up is fine (even charging full). Yes, there will be no more content updates but the game still has decent enough content.

SoA XI with no updates + full monthly fee is still better than ARR with perpeutual carrot on the stick (copy and paste 3 dungeons, trials, and boss fights).

WoW does that but it is a much superior game in terms of gameplay, customizations, and content.

As for FFXI not getting updated UI and another expansion? As much I consider FFXI to be one of the best MMORPGs in terms of content (FFXI has a decent variety of content nowadays which I appreciate), people play MMOs mostly for the social aspect rather than the gameplay aspect. FFXI has been declining in population ever since ARR came out. They probably did their best to retain and obtain new players but it seems the decline led to them deciding to end FFXI.

It is interesting that in the post, they said that they are open to continue to return developing FFXI if it suddenly becomes popular again for some reason (though it is unlikely). So it is definitely due to a population issue and I'm fine with that.

They could have tried WoWing FFXI but it doesn't make sense to have two (XI and XIV) of more or less the same MMOs active at the time (and they'll be competing with each other unlike Dragon Quest X).

And also regarding the previous page about whether sub cost should be reduced or not. I'm fine with FFXI still having full sub cost. Lets be honest, even if FFXI was free to play, no one would play the game. The UI is terrible and it is the biggest turn off. Even if the UI was XIV ARR level, no one wants to play a game no one else playing (majority of MMO players only play MMOs for the social aspect, rather than the gameplay aspect).

However to the players still loyal to it (or have things they want to do in the game still), they'll probably keep playing. Doesn't make sense to reduce sub costs for any reason. I mean maybe a few players may return but the majority that still play will keep paying the current fee (I doubt a sub reduction or even going free to play will add much population to the game).

Spoiler: show

Like I said in various posts before, FFXI has had the best year in 2014-2015 (a little in 2013 too). Monthly updates and more content than ever.

The amount of content (even if you just look at Seekers of Adoulin alone and ignore everything else) in FFXI beats nearly every single MMO out there.

Also I appreciate FFXI dev team going all out. In January 2015, they said they couldn't find a way to display linkshell message 2. In March 2015 (just 2 months later), they did it.

If this was the Blizzard team or the ARR team, we'd have "not sure if we can implement this" or "sorry, it's not possible" but XI (ever since SoA release) has said screw it to limitations and implemented as many player requested features as possible. So for that, I praise and thank the dev team of XI.

Since SoA, the FFXI team has responded to almost every single player feedback (there are still some silly decisions like keeping new jobs off of relics or keeping SoA jobs off of empyrean weapons, but for most part, I agree with all their decisions).

From the post, it sounds like they'll keep FFXI up until the cost of keeping it up outweighs the subs gained. I appreciate that at least.

I am sure they actually tried their best to keep 2 MMOs running. FFXI has been slowly (small amount) losing subs since ARR release. So they probably figure that the decline in players will keep going and that making a new expansion probably won't work (again, XI has the most content filled updates in 2014 to 2015 and even that didn't stop the decline).

Could they have done more? Probably but I at least appreciate them keeping the game up as long as possible. It's still a decent enough game on its own that FFXI can probably keep a decent number of subs.

Obligatory most MMOs are glorified chat clients post.

Spoiler: show

What I like about FFXI now that it is actually a good game on its own. I said this before but old FFXI was really a glorified chat client. Did you like exp parties back then because the gameplay was the best thing ever, or was it actually because it was basically AOL Instant Messenger in a jungle (I remember having fun in Kazham parties but not because of the gameplay, just for the chat aspect; looking back, FFXI wasn't really a good game at all). Personally while I enjoyed old FFXI, it was definitely just a glorified chat client and not an actual game (I did enjoy the story, exploration, lore, etc, but you can still get that now).

XI even without content updates (and even if you look at SoA alone) still has a decent amount of content compared to ARR and even WoW. So, the content (even without updates) will last a while. Plus it's not like content in ARR is any better. ARR has updates but each update just copy and pastes the exact same things the last 6 months worth of updates did (ARR has barely changed at all since release in terms of content). ARR doesn't really add any new content, it just recycles the same content and keeps the carrot on the stick.

FFXI did a good job at making a variety of content that will last for a while. So while XI will lose its carrot on the stick (no more updates), XI still has a decent amount of stuff before players cap out on everything (job points, R/M/E, trying to max out Skirmish gear, etc).

And while XI's combat system is horrible, at least the jobs are varied and there's decent number of customization.

From a business perspect, there's zero sense to reduce sub cost of XI. Again, people that still play are loyal and will keep paying. They'll likely lose more from reducing sub cost than gain.

They probably will lose most subs by next year but not because of sub cost, but because of no new content. Even if they made the game F2P, people will leave the game because the carrot on the stick (updates) is gone. That's the main argument against reducing the sub cost.

The players who won't quit because of that are probably fine paying a full sub fee. So that's why they'll keeping the sub at full price. Personally even if I am done with the game, I'll keep subbing. XI has provided years worth of fun, so I'll keep subbing even when I have completed everything there is in the game (as a thanks to the dev team).

They probably only had the option of either keeping the servers up, with full sub fee, or just shutting everything down. I prefer the former than the latter.

For people that want to check the game once in a while, it's probably not a big deal either to them to pay a sub for a month and check out the game for a bit before moving on (even if the sub was half or free, they'd probably do the same).

For people that want to move on, they can. For people that want to stick with XI a bit and finish whatever and enjoy the game, they can also do that. So, I'm fine with how they decided to end things. And in its best era ever (Seekers of Adoulin era).

I'll probably still play even after content updates end, to finish a few things and maybe hang out in Mog Gardens.

I'm probably going to be mostly done with MMOs after XI but WoW (every other expansion) is probably my MMO to go as I still consider WoW to have the best non-action based gameplay of any RPG.

Also as others have pointed out. Matsui isn't the guy in charge with the fundings (or that is, the decision to fund the mobile game over XI; plus the mobile games are being developed by a third party anyway, so they are just lending their licenses away). Matsui is just a developer for the game (he probably doesn't have any way of making any business related decisions). Matsui probably was just given a staff to work with, a timeline, and profit to reach. In terms of major funding decisions, he probably wasn't given much options (only just what XI had before).

Personally I don't think the mobile game thing is a big deal. Considering SE has been releasing a ton of mobile games lately, seeing one for XI is not that surprising even if XI wasn't ending.

[Sephiran]

My Idea is that SE had meant to close FFXI for a while.
Matsui somehow managed to receive some (small) resources with the idea of relaunching the game and making a better and more profitable thing for SE.
He's been given a timeline and some results to reach.
He failed to do that, and they've been forced to head another way.

As far as Noxon into the project, let's not assume it's SE who asked them to outsource FFXI. Maybe it's Noxon who contacted SE because they were interested in it somehow.

I think we all have theories about what's going on in SE HQ right now. Some are much more optimistic than others.

[Damane]

What strikes me odd, is that they expect us the playerbase to pay monthly fees after the last major version update for nothing? sry but aint gonna pay for something that gets no new content.

@ketsSC: loyal or not. If there is no new content being pushed out there is no reason for a sub-fee. I have played FFXI now for over a decade, the moment rhapsody ends is the moment i have seen all content of FFXI and i will get bored, that is a given fact, no social aspect of the game will change that. Friends i play with will get bored too, there is NO justification for a sub after that point. With no sub i would log in to FF11 from time to time just for shits and giggles, but with a sub and no new content... sorry but i aint paying full price for almost no service/new-content

[KetSC]

What strikes me odd, is that they expect us the playerbase to pay monthly fees after the last major version update for nothing? sry but aint gonna pay for something that gets no new content.

But what would they gain from lowering the sub cost? Like I said before, if people are going to quit due to no content, they are going to regardless if it's same sub fee or less.

I'm fine with it. If the two options are keep FFXI up but with full sub cost or shut it down, then I'm fine with them keeping FFXI up for full sub cost.

[Damane]

But what would they gain from lowering the sub cost? Like I said before, if people are going to quit due to no content, they are going to regardless if it's same sub fee or less.

I'm fine with it. If the two options are keep FFXI up but with full sub cost or shut it down, then I'm fine with them keeping FFXI up for full sub cost.

I dont know how you feel, but i kinda feel screwed that i funded basicly ARR because 14 failed and am getting this shit back. Rhapsodys of Vanadiel better be totally awesome, because i aint gonna pay monthly fees to fund other games of them. There is no justification for full sub-fees when there is no new content being developed for the game. in that sense i would have rather seen the game end with a bang and going to be shut down, then leting it starve to death with sub-fees for no reason.

[Sephiran]

But what would they gain from lowering the sub cost? Like I said before, if people are going to quit due to no content, they are going to regardless if it's same sub fee or less.

I'm fine with it. If the two options are keep FFXI up but with full sub cost or shut it down, then I'm fine with them keeping FFXI up for full sub cost.

That's why SE should have thought the mobile business through more. You're right. SE might be getting something back if they tied the mobile into the main servers and used the population growth to provide funding for more new content on both ends.

But they aren't. They're taking that revenue and putting it towards a mobile client that will be a separate and possibly vacuous sink.

I dont know how you feel, but i kinda feel screwed that i funded basicly ARR because 14 failed and am getting this shit back. Rhapsodys of Vanadiel better be totally awesome, because i aint gonna pay monthly fees to fund other games of them. There is no justification for full sub-fees when there is no new content being developed for the game. in that sense i would have rather seen the game end with a bang and going to be shut down, then leting it starve to death with sub-fees for no reason.

Word for word what I just said.

[KetSC]

Personally I'm in the side that thinks XI could have seen another expansion or two and probably still made profit (though we don't know the actual numbers).

For whatever reason, the higher ups decided it was time for XI to end and the funds (and dev team) for XI is going else where.

The major thing to note is that I don't think the mobile game is where the FFXI dev team (or funds) is heading (the mobile games are being developed by another company).

Maybe they are planning sequels to the Chrono series again or Final Fantasy Tactics (they said before they'll make sequels to those game if/when the XI dev team is free, since XI dev team were the original devs for those games).

Anyway, that's my guess on why the sudden closure of XI. It seems that the higher ups wanted the funds and dev team of XI somewhere else. While XI was probably doing okay in terms of profit, I guess they wanted them to work on something else to try to get more. They might even just moved XI devs to the ARR team and the higher ups probably figured it was better to add more development to one MMO than split it between two MMOs.

[dasva]

jps only going to go to 20 now... seems like they would've wanted to at least go to the promised 30 maybe higher to buy more grinding time

Anyways I don't really understand this all or nothing logic of theirs... want to cut spending so cut development sure makes sense. By why not just go back into the old 2-4 content updates a year then? Why does it have to be all updates all the time or none at all? Plus you'd think just cutting console support would help in that regard by itself

[Sephiran]

Personally I'm in the side that thinks XI could have seen another expansion or two and probably still made profit (though we don't know the actual numbers).

For whatever reason, the higher ups decided it was time for XI to end and the funds (and dev team) for XI is going else where.

The major thing to note is that I don't think the mobile game is where the FFXI dev team (or funds) is heading (the mobile games are being developed by another company).

Maybe they are planning sequels to the Chrono series again or Final Fantasy Tactics (they said before they'll make sequels to those game if/when the XI dev team is free, since XI dev team were the original devs for those games).

Who knows, maybe in five years or so, we'll see our old Vana'diel released in prettier graphics than those of XIV.

(That almost hurt to say. I'm not that optimistic.)

[Seha]

On another note, I've never seen Matsui seem so downcast--a stark contrast to his normally happy and chipper self.

Actually, we started making jokes about him being depressed since his very first posts lol. Guy always sounded very defeated everytime he posted something.

[Tidane]

SE essentially is done with FFXI, they're just farming the code out to nexon for potentially free returns.

Yes, that was my point. If you're going to kill something, kill it.

Licensing the IP to Nexon is disappointing (and if they're actually paying any money to have this done, moronic). Those resources could be put into developing something good from scratch instead of attempting to resurrect the corpse of what once was into something successful in a completely new form. Basing everything on the FFXI server code is a recipe for failure, so you'd better be revamping that...which you could've just done for actual FFXI.

There are certainly ways you could have made FFXI successful on mobile platforms, but everything we've been told so far appears to be the precise way not to be successful. Perhaps they have done insight into the Japanese market, but no one I know is going to download and play a phone game called Final Fantasy XI.

As I said, I can understand all the business behind the moves they made, but as a whole their choices do not make sense. They want to tap into a market that they have not yet gotten, but I fail to see the sense behind this. Perhaps they will completely shatter my expectations and this mobile FFXI will be everything the original was. Most likely, though, it will be a piece of shit.

Additionally, there have been multiple comments about how they remade FFXIV and resentment about why they wouldn't do that for FFXI. I have refrained from mentioning it because I'm always on my phone, but in short:

Final Fantasy XIV and A Realm Reborn are not the same game. XIV had a huge number of flaws. It had an absolutely terrible client and server. There were poor game design decisions everywhere. There was a focus on tedium instead of difficulty, which wasn't helped by the inability to do anything difficult because of server lag. Drop rates where terrible. (As an aside, every single one of these statements can also apply to FFXI and not be incorrect.) By 1.23, however, the game had almost become playable and people were enjoying themselves. They had managed to take a broken client and server and improve it dramatically.

Then ARR appeared. The game took cues from the original. It had the same jobs, classes, cities, and lore. They changed the graphics and animation to be perform better and match their new combat. They overhauled the combat and quest systems, making them more like modern MMOs. Added the duty finder and moved everything into instances. They made a seemingly modern MMO with the skin of FFXIV. They also continued to make poor architecture decisions with their code (your inventory was a tabbed bag because they couldn't load all of the items at one; they still can't increase the size of the armory chest). They simplified nearly every mechanic in the game as much as possible. Itemization is nonexistent. Elemental weakness is useless. Ability combos and chains are boring. Limit breaks are party-based extra damage (because using anything else means your party is probably bad). Missions are filled with teleporting from A to B endlessly to talk to people. Classes are completely useless and should have been removed, instead of kept in this form (which would've sucked because the class stories were the best). The armory system as a whole should've been wiped, as the ability to choose your own abilities is now pointless and only restricts their ability to build and balance jobs and classes. Everything with potential was neutered because Yoshi had a very different idea and SE wanted to take no risks. All of that and guess what? ARR is an acceptable MMO. It has a decent story, great visuals, and fights that are fun to do once. What it isn't, however, is what FFXIV sh(c)ould've been.

So, to everyone who is asking why they didn't remake FFXI: what do you think this mobile client is?

[errantfish]

I have to say, it just keeps looking worse. First off, I had a feeling that Rhapsodies was going to introduce no new areas (aside from maybe a battlefield or two). The reward for ultimate completion seems to be unfettered access to content and Trust NPC's. That's actually not a bad idea for a final reward. But the fetch questing that's implied to comprise the bulk of the mission line is going to suck...especially since it's probably not gonna take us anywhere new. Suffice to say, this all looks pretty bleak.

Just to be clear, in that update roadmap they put out, each of the three major version updates for rhapsodies promises "new areas" and "new battle content".

For all I know those areas could be battlefield areas or reskins, but yeah, there are definitely meant to be new areas in each update.

[Sephiran]

Just to be clear, in that update roadmap they put out, each of the three major version updates for rhapsodies promises "new areas" and "new battle content".

For all I know those areas could be battlefield areas or reskins, but yeah, there are definitely meant to be new areas in each update.

I think putting them in the same sentence likes that implies that whoever wrote it was thinking battlefields, but I hope your right. I want to be wrong about all of this.