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  1. #1381

    I don't think anyone would argue with more branching narrative as long as it didn't compromise the overall story quality. So, while GW2 did, and your choices maybe even led to different fights and scenarios, they still eventually wound up in the same destination(s). Nonetheless, it feels like to me that all MMOs suffer from the, "You're the Hero(tm)!"-itis, where even if factions exist to facilitate some aspect of (likely terrible open world) PvP, we're more of a spectator of all the world's going-ons.

    I'm actually kind of waiting for a game that lets us bring up multiple characters at once, serving as more a personal team or faction. This makes it a bit harder to get away with silent protagonists even if we may arguably have a "main" that defaults as the "leader" of the bunch. This, however, would also demand a solid NPC AI or Gambit-like system, but if the player so wished, they could play anyone in their unit and might even get split up for specific tasks/missions. Given the prevalence of the trinity (and I feel failed attempts to "abolish" it from some games), this could also go a long way in helping people teach the various roles even if they may stick to their preference in the long term. PCs could still mix-and-match groups, though, and "big conflicts" could technically be even bigger if you consider one person is literally bringing a party. I'd also say there's a greater economic benefit to this approach of play, where instead of needing to gear up a single character, your whole entourage needs attention. Some might argue that applies to alts in more the current mold, but it seems more like to me people still wind up with a main pick and skimp on their secondary characters in some manner (even if it's just relying solely on quest rewards to progress). If keeping your "team" up to speed is more imperative, I'd say economies will remain stimulated for longer periods and this would still carry over to those who still braved alts with their own teams. Then again, the fourth wall could be broken a bit the ability to make "main" characters on the account party-able.

    More cynically, MMO stories are fleeting. Were travel and fights not required, we could probably press enter at a reasonable pace for a lot of expansion sets faster than an hour of TV programming, and that's not a problem I see going away anytime soon since dev manpower is finite. This is where I instead default to giving players the means to create content for themselves and others. Some would tackle this solo, others would form teams and delegating tasks like the story writing, building locations, boss encounters, etc.. Most will probably be mediocre or below average, but others would be good and maybe even adopted into the core game to help broaden the depth of the world. Things like this are also why I stress we should look to these games evolving titles instead of just, "Raid for a few months if you can, take a break, repeat."

  2. #1382
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    Uh, GW2 had a 'big hero' that wasn't you in the form of Trahearne, and not surprisingly, everyone hates him. People don't want to be the grunt, they want to be the hero.

  3. #1383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarage View Post
    Uh, GW2 had a 'big hero' that wasn't you in the form of Trahearne, and not surprisingly, everyone hates him. People don't want to be the grunt, they want to be the hero.
    Was using GW2 as an example of a PC that has personality buckled onto them through the writing and voice acting, not one in which the player character is the driving force in the narrative.

    I couldn't come up with an example of an MMO that did. The closest I could think of were games like UO. I didn't feel like that style fits with what SquareEnix typically attempts, though.

  4. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarage View Post
    Uh, GW2 had a 'big hero' that wasn't you in the form of Trahearne, and not surprisingly, everyone hates him. People don't want to be the grunt, they want to be the hero.
    I disliked WoW and XI's old version of "you beat the big guy, but you're still a sack of shit turd come the next content update/expansion that they had going for them way back in the day. Maybe it was just the way things were done back then, because they both cleaned that shit up over the years. From the stuff I've seen from WoW's garrisons and the intro quests in their newer expansions, its refreshing as hell to see people saluting -you- for your exploits and wishing that they could be like -you- when it comes time to throw down and save the world.

    XI got it right over time as well. While you still tagged along for some stuff, the "lead" NPCs definitely stepped aside to let you handle the big stuff both in cutscenes and in actual combat, which was nice. I agree that I didn't really gel with GW2's "Fall back in line, grunt" mindset. A living story is fine, but not when I save everything yet this NPC guy gets to call the shots and finish the job because he's got some XXX Sword of Legend nonsense.

  5. #1385

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I disliked WoW and XI's old version of "you beat the big guy, but you're still a sack of shit turd come the next content update/expansion that they had going for them way back in the day. Maybe it was just the way things were done back then, because they both cleaned that shit up over the years. From the stuff I've seen from WoW's garrisons and the intro quests in their newer expansions, its refreshing as hell to see people saluting -you- for your exploits and wishing that they could be like -you- when it comes time to throw down and save the world.

    XI got it right over time as well. While you still tagged along for some stuff, the "lead" NPCs definitely stepped aside to let you handle the big stuff both in cutscenes and in actual combat, which was nice. I agree that I didn't really gel with GW2's "Fall back in line, grunt" mindset. A living story is fine, but not when I save everything yet this NPC guy gets to call the shots and finish the job because he's got some XXX Sword of Legend nonsense.
    Why even talk about GW2? The whole game is a mockery of the original game. They ruined the entire lore of everything and made it a complete joke. They're going to make people PAY for actual "guild wars" something that the game should have had in it from the very start. I mean the game is fucking called GUILD WARS. Its such a joke. SO much rage.

  6. #1386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I disliked WoW and XI's old version of "you beat the big guy, but you're still a sack of shit turd come the next content update/expansion that they had going for them way back in the day. Maybe it was just the way things were done back then, because they both cleaned that shit up over the years. From the stuff I've seen from WoW's garrisons and the intro quests in their newer expansions, its refreshing as hell to see people saluting -you- for your exploits and wishing that they could be like -you- when it comes time to throw down and save the world.

    XI got it right over time as well. While you still tagged along for some stuff, the "lead" NPCs definitely stepped aside to let you handle the big stuff both in cutscenes and in actual combat, which was nice. I agree that I didn't really gel with GW2's "Fall back in line, grunt" mindset. A living story is fine, but not when I save everything yet this NPC guy gets to call the shots and finish the job because he's got some XXX Sword of Legend nonsense.
    Well part of the problem with making the player have a reputation outside of an expansion is if you have a fresh player who hasn't done said expansion, how do you handle the difference? I get what FFXI does: It puts you into a new place where no one knows who the fuck you are or why you are a big fucking deal and then you prove to everyone how big your balls really are. What you have to remember is that MMOs are not and cannot be linear. Some people are going to finish some parts first and some parts second, and some parts not at all. If any of your content needs to reference other content, you quickly build up a spiderweb of bullshit. Hell, this even happens in non MMOs. Look at how badly Mass Effect handled the bullshit spiderweb? All your grand choices meant nothing in the end. It's hard to write for shit like that.

    They still fucked up Mass Effect though. And GW2.

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    there is some inherent difficulty in writing a coherent story that spans a game lasting for so long, especially when each story is supposed to be epic in its own right - its like, how many times can you save the world from destruction before it gets old? It made sense to me that each expansion arc would have you "start from scratch" and work your way up because the stories themselves need pacing and when you start off as the big hero it becomes very difficult to design characters who aren't kiss-asses or entirely useless. It's also so you don't face "didn't bother since its a sequel and i didnt do the original and can't be bothered to play catch up" syndrome. I think this is one aspect that helps make FFXI characters so memorable to those who played them, because those characters mattered and if the situation ever arose you'd almost be certain that they could kick your ass somehow. The characters held their own, could be revered and didn't just push every single thing to you to handle. Characters that are weak(er than the player) or useless are generally not memorable.

    Like, why is Shantotto still the most popular character in FFXI? because shes pompous and batshit crazy and nukes the fuck out of everything. And she's not the only character that is memorable. Each story arc comes with characters that made a difference. Lion saved your life and the world essentially. Prishe had an daredevil attitude and stood up against a god. Luzaf was the unlikely frenemy. Teodor was a badass immortal who just gets up after you "kill" him. Things like that.

    XIV faces the opposite problem. The whole cast holds you up as some hero and are generally useless. And there are so many of them. It got to the point where they had to do something about it leading up to Heavensward, which is likely why the story in 2.55 ended the way it did. It's cleaning the slate for the next expansion.

    Now, i'd much rather each expansion remains a separate arc entirely, as opposed to the continuous arc format XIV seems to be adopting.. because basically what it does is each major story patch invalidates your efforts by introducing a bigger/newer threat. You're the hero, but actually none of what you did really mattered and you still couldn't save anyone. It's a rather dismal kind of story to be a hero in.

  8. #1388
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    Sounds like DBZ and any manga that's modeled after it.

  9. #1389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitou View Post
    Sounds like DBZ and any manga that's modeled after it.
    Funny how they all came from Japan. Maybe there's some sort of correlation.

  10. #1390

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I disliked WoW and XI's old version of "you beat the big guy, but you're still a sack of shit turd come the next content update/expansion that they had going for them way back in the day. Maybe it was just the way things were done back then, because they both cleaned that shit up over the years. From the stuff I've seen from WoW's garrisons and the intro quests in their newer expansions, its refreshing as hell to see people saluting -you- for your exploits and wishing that they could be like -you- when it comes time to throw down and save the world.

    XI got it right over time as well. While you still tagged along for some stuff, the "lead" NPCs definitely stepped aside to let you handle the big stuff both in cutscenes and in actual combat, which was nice. I agree that I didn't really gel with GW2's "Fall back in line, grunt" mindset. A living story is fine, but not when I save everything yet this NPC guy gets to call the shots and finish the job because he's got some XXX Sword of Legend nonsense.
    One of the things I still enjoy about SWTOR was how characters are aware of how badass you are/what choices you made in the story. So when your character shows up in later acts, they would be all like "Hooray! The heroic Jedi is here, we're saved!", or alternatively, "Oh God no not this Sith we're so fucked!"

    I used a little bit of exaggeration there, but the point stands.

  11. #1391
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    Obviously, we've shared our opinions on the Vana'diel Project and how we will receive it. But, there hasn't been any real speculation on how well it will go for SE. What do you guys all think? Will this be a moment of players saying, "I told you so," to such a magnitude that SE considers giving FFXI the ARR treatment? Or do you think SE might actually profit off this mobile venture?

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    its kinda hard to say when we don't know for certain what business models the games would adopt. how well it goes for SE is largely linked to how much they earn from it after all.

    FFGM appears to be a mobile social game with the FFXI system built in as it's gameplay aspect. This likely follows in the footsteps of the success of Record Keeper except that it is 3D and focuses on the FFXI universe, which is large enough to translate into such games. In true Mobage style, this means the game will most certainly have a gacha system as part of its freemium model.. and will likely be pretty successful either way. It'd be hassle free for SE internally as Crooz would be the ones handling and managing the project entirely.

    As for the native app, i think it depends on how its done and whether the mobile version can balance between conveying the game in a familiar enough way for existing players to want to play it, as well as simplifying it for a mobile audience. I say this because I personally feel mobile gamers are extremely fickle and won't be the first ones to take up this one. I expect the game to be pay-to-purchase but free-to-play with a freemium model attached to it.

    whatever the outcome, the 2 paths have been created and there's no easy way to back out even if they wanted to. FFGM is really a cash-in on FFXI IP. I'm quite certain of its success one way or another. It's also clear that FFGM was conceived well before the native app. Beta starts this month so we'll get to see how its like.. in Japanese at least. the native app on the other hand is basically what they've placed the fate of FFXI in. This is the one that cannot really afford to fail.

  13. #1393
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    If it does fail I highly doubt they will suddenly rebound to the PC version and place its hopes in that. It will probably be the end of XI at that point.

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    Yes there's no turning back

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    If it does fail I highly doubt they will suddenly rebound to the PC version and place its hopes in that. It will probably be the end of XI at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spira View Post
    Yes there's no turning back
    I really don't want to say it, but that's probably right.

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    One might call it a...final...fantasy?

  17. #1397
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    Holy necro bump. Couldn't think of anywhere else for it to go.

    http://kotaku.com/first-look-at-the-...ile-1773316772

  18. #1398
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    oh its alive

  19. #1399

    That looks a lot like a mockup and not a screenshot or anything, so hard to say what will happen. Still know nothing about it, basically.

    Calling it a reboot? Don't know how I feel about that, might be cool I guess. But odds are it'll be like most other mobile games and full of annoying microtransactions.

  20. #1400
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    well i have to say it looks nice, still need to see a trailer first before giving final judgement