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  1. #61
    Yarglebargle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Too petty, too petty. Instead of continuing down this line of back and forth derailing -- I'd rather ask as question to you and Nynja (and whoever else would like to respond).

    What would you dudes have done to keep FFXI afloat if you were in Matsui's shoes?
    I don't have the faintest idea, because I'm not about to bullshit my way through this conversation like you initially did.

  2. #62
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuishen View Post
    I don't have the faintest idea, because I'm not about to bullshit my way through this conversation like you initially did.
    Not even trying to trap you or anything, it's a genuine question.

  3. #63

    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Not even trying to trap you or anything, it's a genuine question.
    I imagine someone's starry-eyed reply would be to take the game back to it's roots since that's when it was best. Because.

  4. #64
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    Is this going to be the exact same thread as the "Live Presentation Event: The Future of Final Fantasy XI (03/19/2015)" thread? Because if so just lock it now. The pointless arguing and transition into bitching about 14 is completely uninteresting and stupid.

  5. #65
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    I imagine someone's starry-eyed reply would be to take the game back to it's roots since that's when it was best. Because.
    Those days are gone, however. I don't think any one doubts the glory days of 7-11 years ago, but we are in 2015 now. I'm curious as to what could possibly be done to make the game better. I spent the better half of 3 hours reading the Vagary Findings thread a couple of nights ago, and it just looks like the same type of content that's been around for some time now.

  6. #66
    Blue Magic is Best Magic
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    The graphics would be the first thing I would say needs to be updated. Most idiots these days are only concerned with graphics, I know people who are bored to tears in certain games but still play them because they are pretty. It needed to have been advertised better after that point, they did send emails reminding people of version updates but that was to old players who are butthurt over the 75 days being gone no doubt. The events in this game are still the same as they always were, I don't miss those days at all anyway. Another big thing was the price, they really shouldn't have kept the sub fee 12.95 after all these years or they could have bundled it with 14 price. Some reason people freak out over 12.95 like its a lot of money.... its cheap as hell yet countless people I've asked as to why they don't play 11 (and 14) cite the fact it has a monthly fee. Yet I bet they blow a lot more than 12.95 on shit they don't need or that they waste. The combat system had nothing wrong with it outside of needing a better UI as this one has aged. Slow paced combat is fine, people still play games with turn based and its been a traditional thing in FF series anyway. They should have copied things from windower too and made gear swaps more efficient with their equip sets, the lockstyle was almost perfect to compliment that.

  7. #67
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    Graphic update would have meant dropping PS2 and re working the game into a PC base which we know wasn't feasible or they deemed not worth the cost. So that wouldnt be able to keep the game running longer.

  8. #68
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    He asked what they could have done to make the game better. The option was there, they just didn't want to invest the money.

  9. #69

    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Those days are gone, however. I don't think any one doubts the glory days of 7-11 years ago, but we are in 2015 now. I'm curious as to what could possibly be done to make the game better. I spent the better half of 3 hours reading the Vagary Findings thread a couple of nights ago, and it just looks like the same type of content that's been around for some time now.
    Aside from some issues I hinted at earlier, there's not much reinventing of the MMO wheel that can be done in our current phase of technical prowess. The "basics" have existed since dial-in BBS days, MU*s, or whatever, only to be extended to graphical form with MMOs and built upon by the benefits of 3D space that's not readily apparent through text. Otherwise, you've pretty much gotta hook someone with "something to do" and just what will vary. I favor making content as inclusive as possible, if numerous rants haven't been any indication, while others... well, let's just say they aren't happy unless other players are suffering. With XI's job spread, "something to do" could actually be pretty numerous on the progression scale, and in part why I happened to like trials as incremental steps. Not all trials were done RIGHT, like HMPs, but they weren't always 100% hard-lined into accomplishing in a singular manner. That arguably waned a bit post-Abyssea, but as long as we have hardcores declaring they'd have a job fully geared in a couple days, we can't really get anywhere on the more social end since they tend to be "unhappy" with that on a different side of the spectrum.

    And again, the best graphical update XI could've hoped for was higher resolution textures. Anything beyond that? New fucking game.

  10. #70
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Aside from some issues I hinted at earlier, there's not much reinventing of the MMO wheel that can be done in our current phase of technical prowess. The "basics" have existed since dial-in BBS days, MU*s, or whatever, only to be extended to graphical form with MMOs and built upon by the benefits of 3D space that's not readily apparent through text. Otherwise, you've pretty much gotta hook someone with "something to do" and just what will vary. I favor making content as inclusive as possible, if numerous rants haven't been any indication, while others... well, let's just say they aren't happy unless other players are suffering. With XI's job spread, "something to do" could actually be pretty numerous on the progression scale, and in part why I happened to like trials as incremental steps. Not all trials were done RIGHT, like HMPs, but they weren't always 100% hard-lined into accomplishing in a singular manner. That arguably waned a bit post-Abyssea, but as long as we have hardcores declaring they'd have a job fully geared in a couple days, we can't really get anywhere on the more social end since they tend to be "unhappy" with that on a different side of the spectrum.

    And again, the best graphical update XI could've hoped for was higher resolution textures. Anything beyond that? New fucking game.
    I too have always had a problem with the steps it took to obtain something (assuming relics, salvage gear), but more so in the time it took. It was nice knowing you simply needed X number of items, but the numbers were far too exorbitant, moving people to make it more of a game of economics, rather than playing the game X number of days and you could obtain the item, guaranteed.

    Biggest example I can think of is Alexandrite. Hopefully it's easier now, but back then, damn if they didn't make them insanely hard to obtain. 30,000 was an OK amount if you were seeing near 500 every run. If Salvage was then split into one run a week, it would have essentially taken about 2 months to finish that leg of the quest, which is pretty reasonable. However, Salvage back in the days was a hellish fest of doing runs that would net you at best 50 Alex. Before this, Dynamis was also a problem too with the same story. And then the HMP as you mentioned. I knew plenty of people who instead opted to bot fish, cheat, rob from LS banks, buy gil, or simply farm gil day and night to earn currency instead. I feel they could add similar content now (relics, salvage type upgradable gear) but lessen the crazy amount of currency that would be needed to obtain/upgrade. They could also do with a FATE type of content at this point as well, for people who are solo players or low party number teams for exping/obtaining gear.

    I still think the graphics didn't need an overhaul, but I would have sooner wanted them to fully support their Windowed mode and then extended themselves into supporting 3rd party plugins as well. The team always had this disconnect from the players which was their biggest flaw. Speaking of now, I would do it still and instead would have broken down this one large expansion that's coming into patches similar in aspect to the 3 add-ons or Abyssea. I do feel for them, however -- they probably don't have the funding to even create all new, intricate, zones for the game.

  11. #71

    Progression cost is something I'd most definitely lump into the accessibility umbrella. When some people see what is eventually needed, something they might've done turns into, "No way I'm going to waste time on that!" Unfortunately, you will get the hardcore base demanding such things be present because the game would die without them or whatever. SE had a chance to toss that aside when RMEs lacked ilvl updates, but we know the rest of the story there.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    The graphics would be the first thing I would say needs to be updated. Most idiots these days are only concerned with graphics, I know people who are bored to tears in certain games but still play them because they are pretty. It needed to have been advertised better after that point, they did send emails reminding people of version updates but that was to old players who are butthurt over the 75 days being gone no doubt. The events in this game are still the same as they always were, I don't miss those days at all anyway. Another big thing was the price, they really shouldn't have kept the sub fee 12.95 after all these years or they could have bundled it with 14 price. Some reason people freak out over 12.95 like its a lot of money.... its cheap as hell yet countless people I've asked as to why they don't play 11 (and 14) cite the fact it has a monthly fee. Yet I bet they blow a lot more than 12.95 on shit they don't need or that they waste. The combat system had nothing wrong with it outside of needing a better UI as this one has aged. Slow paced combat is fine, people still play games with turn based and its been a traditional thing in FF series anyway. They should have copied things from windower too and made gear swaps more efficient with their equip sets, the lockstyle was almost perfect to compliment that.
    graphic is 1 point. What SE failed to do was to implement all those QoL adjustments we got during the last 2 years with the relase of ToAU. Theese QoL adjustments (maybe not all due to development time) would have had a much more pleasent impact on the people isntead of frustrateing them.
    The most important ones:
    - Home point crystal warp
    - Level Sync
    - Valor books
    - Survival guides
    - Trusts
    - Map aquisition

    Alot of people just got immensly frustrated because they had to sit tight in port jeuno/whitegate Looking for Party, or because of those ass long walks to areas they allready had visited multiple times.
    Dont get me wrong ToAU was the peak time of FFXI and a really really excellent expansion, but they failed to adress major issues with it just because the devs didnt want to be "WoWish". Holy fuck at the amount of walking indeed.

  13. #73
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Progression cost is something I'd most definitely lump into the accessibility umbrella. When some people see what is eventually needed, something they might've done turns into, "No way I'm going to waste time on that!" Unfortunately, you will get the hardcore base demanding such things be present because the game would die without them or whatever. SE had a chance to toss that aside when RMEs lacked ilvl updates, but we know the rest of the story there.
    Yeah, indeed. Even then they decided to stick with "these will forever be some of the best weapons." This is fine, but they could have marginalized the mundane work needed for the first couple of tasks needed for the base weapon. Lets even run it back to Abyssea times, they could have lessened currency and tasks needed and it would have a great effect on the playerbase. People want to feel like they've accomplished something, and obtaining RME was still a big achievement for all who attempted/completed them (we still see posts in the Relic Obtain thread even). They could have made the base weapon easier, but made it slightly more difficult at the highest upgrade level to compensate. At least make it more tedious of a task at the max level.

    I also agree with Damane in allowing the playerbase more QoL adjustments that would have made the game a less of a mundane task. I mean it took them almost 11 years just to increase the normal running speed only a little bit, which is pretty sad when you can't use a chocobo in a dungeon or in a city.

  14. #74
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Too petty, too petty. Instead of continuing down this line of back and forth derailing -- I'd rather ask a question to you and Nynja (and whoever else would like to respond).

    What would you dudes have done to keep FFXI afloat if you were in Matsui's shoes?
    Define afloat. Like if you mean making money I'm sure they still are. If you mean enough to convince the people outside the game to keep it going kind of depends on their attitude. I'm sure they can keep ffxi at a healthy profit for years merely by toning things down a tad. On the other hand I don't think there is any way in the world to make the kind of profit ratios that you could potentially get from reallocating all those people to other projects (though those projects hold more risk and the mere act of doing so hurts ffxi profits) other than flat out remaking and remarketing the game. From graphics for all the new people that care about that to lowering the requirements of somethings to make it not so daunting for new players and of course rewriting it for PC no ps2.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Yeah, indeed. Even then they decided to stick with "these will forever be some of the best weapons." This is fine, but they could have marginalized the mundane work needed for the first couple of tasks needed for the base weapon. Lets even run it back to Abyssea times, they could have lessened currency and tasks needed and it would have a great effect on the playerbase. People want to feel like they've accomplished something, and obtaining RME was still a big achievement for all who attempted/completed them (we still see posts in the Relic Obtain thread even). They could have made the base weapon easier, but made it slightly more difficult at the highest upgrade level to compensate. At least make it more tedious of a task at the max level.

    I also agree with Damane in allowing the playerbase more QoL adjustments that would have made the game a less of a mundane task. I mean it took them almost 11 years just to increase the normal running speed only a little bit, which is pretty sad when you can't use a chocobo in a dungeon or in a city.
    lets be realistic here, if there wouldnt have been rusty cap/haks/blinkers/alex dupe/dynamis hax etc. i doubt we would have seen so many REMs pop up. 3/4 of all the REMS created have prolly used some form of cheat, not necessary by teh REM maker themself (ecxept for hak fishign and blinkers etc.) or were heavy influenced by 3. persons that sold shit via bazaar that was duped/hacked/cheated etc. (alex dupe/salvage II endless boss pouches/endless dynamis etc etc. etc.)

    Seriously the 1. mythic wouldnt even have poped up so soon if it werent for alex dupes lol

  16. #76
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Define afloat. Like if you mean making money I'm sure they still are. If you mean enough to convince the people outside the game to keep it going kind of depends on their attitude. I'm sure they can keep ffxi at a healthy profit for years merely by toning things down a tad. On the other hand I don't think there is any way in the world to make the kind of profit ratios that you could potentially get from reallocating all those people to other projects (though those projects hold more risk and the mere act of doing so hurts ffxi profits) other than flat out remaking and remarketing the game. From graphics for all the new people that care about that to lowering the requirements of somethings to make it not so daunting for new players and of course rewriting it for PC no ps2.
    I mean keep it from ending the way it's going to end, of course.

    I always saw the solution as attempting to please those who are left to play, something which they haven't done as well even under Matsui's command. They were always about trying to draw in new players, but it's just not happening because of FFXIV & DQX, two newer MMOs created by SE. If only they maintained their focus on older players and players who have recently played but quit it would have had a better outcome. Even then, there's just something about playing an older MMO, then jumping ship to the newer, shinier game made by the same company. This similar thing happened with Everquest and EQ2.

    To that end, they are simply better off working with the fans who are still around and wouldn't abandon the game for anything -- could start with sooner than later server merges and add even more content that favors 1 or 2 party systems rather than alliance content. They should also completely marginalize the level up and raise systems in any way they can. Leveling up from 1 to 99 should be a relatively painless process if it's not already and they should remove the EXP loss from dying if they haven't already since.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    lets be realistic here, if there wouldnt have been rusty cap/haks/blinkers/alex dupe/dynamis hax etc. i doubt we would have seen so many REMs pop up. 3/4 of all the REMS created have prolly used some form of cheat, not necessary by teh REM maker themself (ecxept for hak fishign and blinkers etc.) or were heavy influenced by 3. persons that sold shit via bazaar that was duped/hacked/cheated etc. (alex dupe/salvage II endless boss pouches/endless dynamis etc etc. etc.)

    Seriously the 1. mythic wouldnt even have poped up so soon if it werent for alex dupes lol
    It's kinda sad when you put it this way because it's more or less correct, which points out the problem that content was made more strenuous than what was necessary.

  17. #77
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seha View Post
    In the words of my physics professor: you all must have a computer, it's unthinkable to not possess one in this age anymore.
    Perhaps outside of Japan, but all they need there is a Smartphone and a date rape simulator for it.

    It annoys me as well, because many, MANY solid ideas have been stifled because of their (Japan's) obsession with console-first (in the past) and now, mobile-first. These games could have been so much better had they started with a PC base and simply expanded off into consoles. XI could have easily continued, and many options (including single player) could have been realistically explored. SE is learning what everyone else already knew for years, even those without any experience in game development: centering your technology around a goddamn console is retarded (in general, really, but also) if you're ever going to plan on involving PC into the mix.

    SE was (and in some areas still is) far too prideful for their own good in adopting a centralized approach instead of catering to themselves first and the world second. Had XI been designed with PC in mind first, it, like the game it was copied from (Everquest, duh), it could undoubtedly continue to churn out Xpac after Xpac and continue to adapt to a changing market.

    How many times has Japan catered to themselves and been bitten in the ass over it? How many articles were we reading half a decade ago about how Japan's market was shrinking; about how the Japanese were abandoning console gaming; about how Japan would need to broaden their approach or lose relevance? Its just frustrating as a fan. You wish you could dictate or at least influence them a bit, because you want to see them thrive, but ugh.

    Part of that is why I'm still in this thread. My frustration stems beyond XI; it stems to Japan in general. I see XI's inglorious end and hear all of the excuses surrounding the bullshit PS2 and look at the future, where the Breath of Fire series is reduced to a moeblob bullshit inkstain on smart phones. This is the Japan I grew up idolizing. Its... disheartening.

  18. #78

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    I too have always had a problem with the steps it took to obtain something (assuming relics, salvage gear), but more so in the time it took. It was nice knowing you simply needed X number of items, but the numbers were far too exorbitant, moving people to make it more of a game of economics, rather than playing the game X number of days and you could obtain the item, guaranteed.
    I liked that part of XI, having started the game in high school and into college it was nice being able to use things I'd learned to have a step above the competition or use things from the game to easily understand low level business ideas. Seemed to separate the game from lazy shit like WoW. I thought it was good that you couldn't earn the best stuff by being lazy, unless you had a hustle. You had to work hard and maintain a system or work the system. You couldn't just sit back and experience everything.

  19. #79
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    Are people still talking about whether or not the game is losing money right now? If you think the game is losing money then you might not be very smart. They would literally have no reason to keep a game alive that has such a low number of players if it wasn't at least making some form of money for them. Will the game ever make as much money as it did in the past, no. What we're seeing here is them maximizing their profit margin as the game sits now. This way when more people quit the game (which is inevitable) they will retain income on the game longer. In order to add to this whole equation they're taking FFXI into other avenues via smart phones and a whole other smart phone game entirely. Gotta milk that ffxi cow for all its worth until it becomes nothing but a worthless husk of a game. Don't underestimate a JP salesman. They will get their money.

  20. #80
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    I hope they change their mind about the first part of RoV being lvl 60ish X.X

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