Real Talk : Suicide/Depression

[Koul]

More on point, if someone perceives the society they live in as ridiculously backwards and self-destructive, and almost everyone else doesn't, is the person just a cynic (and/or clinically depressed), or are the others suffering from mass delusion? It's not a simple question, and demands more investigation than throwing pills at a person until they stop caring about the negative things they see/think about.

Truthfully, I think the others suffer from mass delusion. (My opinion) but with that said, on a personal level, I don't want to give too much power to my cynical misanthropic thoughts because I fear I would turn into a really really unpleasant person. I don't suppress those thoughts, I vent them out but I refuse to fully give into them.

For people that work in customer service, I'm sure they can tell which customers/people let negativity overtake them and which ones don't. Now, I don't think being a cynic is necessarily "bad" per se but I think it's a lot easier for a cynical personality to go down that "unpleasant human" route. Which, again, is what pushes me. I can't control how people behave/act/what they do but I can control myself. I don't like it when people are garbage to me, so, I'll try as hard as I can to not be garbage. Which does end up screwing myself over but I just gotta deal with it. Sorry, super rambly. I don't know what I'm talking about anymore lol

[kuronosan]

You have good points, but where your arguments fail is that therapy is entirely based on someone "wanting" to change and "believing" it, because surprise the mind is a powerful thing. It's no different than when a doctor prescribes you blood pressure medication and you refuse to take it. You can actively measure that the patient isn't taking it and see the consequences firsthand. So where we agree is that you can't measure brain chemistry, but that doesn't make it a placebo. The drugs most definitely have an effect, and the therapy is mostly to keep a person compliant and on their medication. It's only qualitative, because you can't measure the changes directly.

My feeling is that there are a lot of bad doctors out there who throw meds at a problem and then wonder why it gets worse or stays the same.

It's because human beings don't fit a standard mold and never will, especially with something as complex as the brain.

[Blubbartron]

It's really NO different than when you don't take medication, a real thing that you simply take and it works whether you believe it does or not? Come on man.

But say I believe therapy was an actual objective treatment that worked even if the patient doesn't believe - what constitutes "taking the drug" so to speak? Going to every appointment? Participating in the back and forth? Answering as honestly as possible? Or does it come down, like I think it does, to allowing your mind to be shaped without critical analysis of what you're being told?

I agree that medication has an effect, but I don't necessarily agree that therapy is required or useful. There may be some people that need a person to be accountable to in order to stay diligent in taking their medication, but then why isn't therapy recommended for people on all medications, especially ones that keep a person alive? Obviously its primary purpose is not to keep someone on their meds.

[enzan]

Isn't those whole plan that someone has to "want to" change and "believe" that they can? At least that is what a lot of doctors seem to promote. However, a lot of doctors are scary stupid, and I wonder how they got where they are. What should a person do when the cause of the problem isn't something they have the power to change or escape?

[Koul]

What should a person do when the cause of the problem isn't something they have the power to change or escape?

This is difficult for me to envision. Can you give me a situation?

and therapy is something that definitely is a "get what you give". If you go into it with "this is all a placebo bullshit and will never work" and don't have even a sliver of it working, it probably won't. I don't think everyone needs therapy but it can definitely help. Especially in those that don't do a lot of self-reflection. Therapists aren't there to solve your problem for you, they're there to help *you* solve and figure out the problem.

[kuronosan]

It's really NO different than when you don't take medication, a real thing that you simply take and it works whether you believe it does or not? Come on man.

But say I believe therapy was an actual objective treatment that worked even if the patient doesn't believe - what constitutes "taking the drug" so to speak? Going to every appointment? Participating in the back and forth? Answering as honestly as possible? Or does it come down, like I think it does, to allowing your mind to be shaped without critical analysis of what you're being told?

I agree that medication has an effect, but I don't necessarily agree that therapy is required or useful. There may be some people that need a person to be accountable to in order to stay diligent in taking their medication, but then why isn't therapy recommended for people on all medications, especially ones that keep a person alive? Obviously its primary purpose is not to keep someone on their meds.

We'll have to discuss this later when I'm not at work.

[arus2001]

This is difficult for me to envision. Can you give me a situation?

I can somewhat relate from a position of loathing the area I'm stuck in. Economically, it's not too hot, which means well-paying jobs are on the scarce side or pretty much locked in to nepotism/cronyism. The act of simply moving away requires money I can not generate in the proper quantity to offset other expenses like gas, food, insurances, and other living expenses. There's also the unknown of where to go or what other well-paying work could be found there. Socially, I'm simply a nerd stuck amongst rednecks, translating to most of my friends from the past getting the hell out when they could. When I'd lived in Pittsburgh for 6 months for schooling, I also pretty much came to the conclusion that living in a big city is most definitely not for me in part because I do like the freedom of having a readily available car and not paying out the ass for parking anywhere. So, if we start looking at suburbs, it probably means those of lesser quality and safety due to finances while also introducing the unknown of (long) commutes, of which I have difficult time stomaching anything over 20 minutes one way because you almost start talking one of hour work being needed just to pay to get to it.

Sometimes I simply wish I had that "dream" where I knew what I wanted to grow up and be so I could chase that without hesitation, but it never happened. Instead, I pretty much hopped around from job to job, figuring out I either hated the work itself or the people I was stuck working with. The occasional job were neither were a factor subsequently went belly up due to bad economy then/now. So, in the end, it's more like I'm stuck living too close my family and as days go by, getting progressively closer to almost being a nurse to my old man as he grows more lazy and decrepit. This is also where some would probably assert I just work multiple jobs and basically do nothing but work and sleep. There was a point where I'd tried that, but it really only succeeded in feeding my cynicism and what some may have inferred to earlier as becoming an unpleasant person. All this might not make it sound so surprising that I'm behind any kind of legislation that asserts anyone who works a 40 hour week should be able to live comfortably above poverty. Reality and greed may clash with that, but in being both sympathetic and empathic to the plights of others, some way worse off than me, I dunno... maybe there's still an optimist hiding in me somewhere.

Give me a good exit strategy, though, and you can bet I'll probably jump on it. Just for me, I don't believe my salvation lies in pills or sitting on a couch talking to someone who likely doesn't care that much. Otherwise, it's just nose to the grindstone. :/

[Kalmado]

One of my most recent classes was psychology. Unfortunately, Baker College felt an art major with something that made her acceptable for teaching was good enough to teach psychology. Anyhow, late into the class we talked about drugs and many of us stepped up and said what we took and why. She asked me why I would choose to take the pills instead of doing psychotherapy, to which I replied, "If it was affordable I would go at least once a week." This was while working. I personally believe that if a person is willing to give their all into fixing their mental health problems a fix can be had. I'm not saying 100%, but for those of us here I think we can do it.

[Aragon of Odin]

What should a person do when the cause of the problem isn't something they have the power to change or escape?

Without knowing what you're actually referring to this is a hard question to answer. I know I felt like that for a very long time and to me it was very real but the answer was to educate myself and change my perception.

[Koul]

I can somewhat relate from a position of loathing the area I'm stuck in. Economically, it's not too hot, which means well-paying jobs are on the scarce side or pretty much locked in to nepotism/cronyism. The act of simply moving away requires money I can not generate in the proper quantity to offset other expenses like gas, food, insurances, and other living expenses. There's also the unknown of where to go or what other well-paying work could be found there. Socially, I'm simply a nerd stuck amongst rednecks, translating to most of my friends from the past getting the hell out when they could. When I'd lived in Pittsburgh for 6 months for schooling, I also pretty much came to the conclusion that living in a big city is most definitely not for me in part because I do like the freedom of having a readily available car and not paying out the ass for parking anywhere. So, if we start looking at suburbs, it probably means those of lesser quality and safety due to finances while also introducing the unknown of (long) commutes, of which I have difficult time stomaching anything over 20 minutes one way because you almost start talking one of hour work being needed just to pay to get to it.

Sometimes I simply wish I had that "dream" where I knew what I wanted to grow up and be so I could chase that without hesitation, but it never happened. Instead, I pretty much hopped around from job to job, figuring out I either hated the work itself or the people I was stuck working with. The occasional job were neither were a factor subsequently went belly up due to bad economy then/now. So, in the end, it's more like I'm stuck living too close my family and as days go by, getting progressively closer to almost being a nurse to my old man as he grows more lazy and decrepit. This is also where some would probably assert I just work multiple jobs and basically do nothing but work and sleep. There was a point where I'd tried that, but it really only succeeded in feeding my cynicism and what some may have inferred to earlier as becoming an unpleasant person. All this might not make it sound so surprising that I'm behind any kind of legislation that asserts anyone who works a 40 hour week should be able to live comfortably above poverty. Reality and greed may clash with that, but in being both sympathetic and empathic to the plights of others, some way worse off than me, I dunno... maybe there's still an optimist hiding in me somewhere.

Give me a good exit strategy, though, and you can bet I'll probably jump on it. Just for me, I don't believe my salvation lies in pills or sitting on a couch talking to someone who likely doesn't care that much. Otherwise, it's just nose to the grindstone. :/

I know exactly what you mean with wishing you knew what you wanted to be. I don't know how many times I wished my dad had some type of business and since I was a little kid I was being groomed to take that business over. Or something like that. As far as work goes, my biggest challenge was just working for a company/person that had integrity and tried their hardest to be as honest with me as a person and worker as possible. I feel like I've landed at the place. (I'm just a measly supervisor at a Natural Goods grocery store, but I absolutely love it and they treat hard working employees pretty well)

The other stuff is difficult. Someone in your position, I would say, DOESN'T need pills and I think a therapist *would* care about helping you but I mean. They can't really do anything, y'know what I mean? My biggest suggestion to people in your situation would to do some deep thinking and be absolutely honest with yourself and figure out what you need to do to make yourself happy. Trust your gut, trust your intuition and try to make whatever it is happen eventually. Don't think about money so much or anything like that but just what do you need to do to make your life better/happy and work towards that. Don't stress about time or how others might "have it all figured out" or garbage like that. Life is a different journey for everyone.

[Gokku]

So necro bumping this,

I've had 2 major episodes since last posting, most recently today. I'm really glad support structure isn't the "freak out" crowd I just notifiy them when it hits and again when it passes.

[myreality]

That's cool too have a solid group of people. I just bottle things up because friends/family would call police and order straight jacket. I have to get back to the gym for any release.

Anyway dude, just post your concerns here. We will pat you on the back while making bunny ears to ease things out. ( that thing siblings do when pictures are taken)

[arus2001]

Yeah, I can't really trust my family with any sort of sensitive personal feelings because they're all judgmental fuckfaces. And while I've vented to net friends from time to time, even that pool's thinned out lately due to RL doing what it does in such instances. Plus it's been a few years since I've found any new net communities I really wanted to settle into.

[myreality]

Settle into BG and be prepared to be lambasted with wanted upon waves of good intentions ( might carry an STD, dunno) and dickfaces with good intentions then you have Kuronosan

[Gokku]

ive come to realize ive gotten very very good at faking happiness outwardly when its needed , it was actually a relief to have to put on a smile to walk into the office with the way i was really feeling.

[Guitarman]

I'm a big proponent of therapy. If you find a good therapist, they make all the difference in the world. I was at a point in my depression where I was one bad night away from ending myself. Meds, therapy, and my own damn stubbornness got me through. Now, I have my depression under control. I say control, not beaten, because it will never truly go away. You just learn to become stronger than it.

Point being, if either of you need to chat, feel free to PM. I do truly understand what it's like to live with the "black dog" as Winston Churchill called it. No one can really empathize until they've been through it as we have, even if they have the best of intentions.