Game Watch Translation - Yoshida Interview on Heavensward (EU Media Event 5/19)

[Spider-Dan]

Talking about why you stopped paying to support something after ceasing paying to support it is the more logical of the two, if the alternative is to consistently complain about it while clinging to it like a battered wife.

Again, 2.0 WAR. You didn't quit, you complained while continuing to play it.

In any other situation than your MMO one, talking about why you stopped supporting something you didn't enjoy is seen as logical, rather than complaining while still funneling effort and tears into it.

There is a huge difference between quitting and stating your rationale for doing so and continuing to post for years about a game you already quit playing long ago.

If I quit watching the NFL because I was sick of the product, it doesn't make sense for me to continue to post daily to an NFL message board about NFL teams. Continuing to offer commentary on a product when you don't even have an informed opinion of its current state is, well, stupid. (see: the volume of commentary on 1.23 from people who quit years before it was released)

I'm asking you to provide an example of a game that has extensive gear diversity without breaking specific pieces of gear in the process in comparison to others.

I guess I'll cite XI? It's not clear exactly what peril you are trying to avoid, much less where that peril has actually presented itself before.

Remember: the point here is purportedly that gear diversity is not only dangerous, it's so clearly dangerous and has such a poor track record that even an attempt to introduce it in XIV should be discouraged. That's a very curious position to take for a game in which the most amazing, overpowered gear would be thrown in the trash in 6 months' time.

There's a significant difference here: one game is healthy by all measures, while the other is literally on its last legs.

You quit XI prior to March 2008. XI was quite healthy and hardly "on its last legs" then, yet you continued to bash it for years.

[Lucavi]

I guess I'll cite XI? It's not clear exactly what peril you are trying to avoid, much less where that peril has actually presented itself before.

I was hoping you wouldn't use XI (but there was nothing else to use, as XI is the only one that utilized a system like it save for things that existed in the 1990's...) because its not a good example. You can't use a game that had Adaberk, Scorp harness, and fucking P charm (best in slot from level 30-ish to end-game for years? Really?!) to reply to an inquiry into a game that had a horizontal gear system that had balanced gear across that system while still providing gear diversity. What was diverse about creating a single item that had that much acc in the neck slot, while having nothing else that came close for years? What's balanced about having Adaberk as the be-all-end-all for every class that could use it, to the exclusion of all other choices within that gear slot for years? Intelligent decisions regarding horizontal gear choices are only intelligent if there's an actual decision to be made! There was no decision if you had an Adaberk: wear it! There was no decision if you got a P charm until what, CoP? Love Torque? Relic weapons obviously get a pass because there was a long and involved process to claim them, and many, many MMOs with horizontal systems include Legendary weapons that generally tower above non-legendary weapons.

There's nothing more to say in regards to it.

Remember: the point here is purportedly that gear diversity is not only dangerous, it's so clearly dangerous and has such a poor track record that even an attempt to introduce it in XIV should be discouraged.

First of all, that's your point, not mine. My initial request from you contained nothing in regards to this, so I'm not obligated to respond to it at all. Secondly, you're seriously going to say that introducing a Pcharm would be healthy to ARR? Introducing a neck piece in Brayflops Normal at level 32 would be healthy if said neck piece could realistically be used in Coil 1 and all other neck pieces along the way could be disregarded immediately? That's what you're proposing if you cite XI as your standard for balanced horizontal progression, which is why I was hoping you'd dig deep into perhaps some Korean MMORPG and find another system that wasn't as jankey as XI's.

You quit XI prior to March 2008. XI was quite healthy and hardly "on its last legs" then, yet you continued to bash it for years.

So? Was that a crime? Did that offend you that deeply? Does what I said about in XI in 2008 wound you so, such that you'd continue to bring it up in 2015? Are we still doing this? Is that all the ammunition you have? Is that "dirt" you have on me supposed to mean something? What does this have to do with anything? Its silly, really. Shallow and strangely obsessive given that that was more than HALF A DECADE ago and you continue to bring it up every time I say more than two words to you, like some 30-year old bitter woman that can't stop living in her high school era because she was Head Cheerleader then and her life has stagnated since.

People have gotten married in this forum. Children have been born. Graduations have occurred. Careers have been made in that timespan, but to you, its as if time has stopped; all that matters between 2008 and the rest of your life is that Lucavi - that Gelwain, the Dragoon from Hades in XI - said hurtful and scathing things about systems within XI when he became disillusioned by the game.

Just some context for you, before I move on.

Like I said before - many times - what I did was the far more reasonable of the two options if the alternative is continuing to pay for something that drives you nuts while complaining about systems that, if ever will be changed, will be changed literal years after the complaint was made. The complaints also stemmed from the rational and reasonable thought process of gaining experiences outside of XI and then comparing others to XI, something that XI purists at the time feared so much that there was a ban on even mentioning "rival MMOs" in the forums.

That's how obsessive the zealotry was back then. If BG as a whole still had the "WoW talk = ban" rule in play for ARR, it'd be a hilarious joke. Acquiring knowledge and experience leads to fairer criticisms. XI was treated like some cult religion, with differing opinion banned and purged. It was silly, but then again, it was a different time, and everyone was in college or high school.

Please, some mod ban SD and myself. I can't make him stop talking about it and turning the other cheek and asking different questions does nothing because it always comes back up from his fingertips. Just ban us both, please. I'll even man up and request myself be banned as well so he won't feel singled out.

[Damane]

I was hoping you wouldn't use XI (but there was nothing else to use, as XI is the only one that utilized a system like it save for things that existed in the 1990's...) because its not a good example. You can't use a game that had Adaberk, Scorp harness, and fucking P charm (best in slot from level 30-ish to end-game for years? Really?!) to reply to an inquiry into a game that had a horizontal gear system that had balanced gear across that system while still providing gear diversity. What was diverse about creating a single item that had that much acc in the neck slot, while having nothing else that came close for years? What's balanced about having Adaberk as the be-all-end-all for every class that could use it, to the exclusion of all other choices within that gear slot for years? Intelligent decisions regarding horizontal gear choices are only intelligent if there's an actual decision to be made! There was no decision if you had an Adaberk: wear it! There was no decision if you got a P charm until what, CoP? Love Torque? Relic weapons obviously get a pass because there was a long and involved process to claim them, and many, many MMOs with horizontal systems include Legendary weapons that generally tower above non-legendary weapons.

There's nothing more to say in regards to it.



First of all, that's your point, not mine. My initial request from you contained nothing in regards to this, so I'm not obligated to respond to it at all. Secondly, you're seriously going to say that introducing a Pcharm would be healthy to ARR? Introducing a neck piece in Brayflops Normal at level 32 would be healthy if said neck piece could realistically be used in Coil 1 and all other neck pieces along the way could be disregarded immediately? That's what you're proposing if you cite XI as your standard for balanced horizontal progression, which is why I was hoping you'd dig deep into perhaps some Korean MMORPG and find another system that wasn't as jankey as XI's.

the flaws of FFXIs gear progression back then in the past are inevidently true, but the current gearprogression in XI is very well done. Each new cycle of events added pieces of gear that were clear upgrades or very decent sidegrades that offered unique stats. Despite the fact that FFXI offers so much diversity in gear collection and job combination, the jobs are somewhat balanced now to most degree (believe it!) if played to their fullest potential. It all depends tough on the event you are trying to do, some are better suited for one event, some for other, but all can do the events and deliver what they need to deliver. This is evidently true for FFXIV too, there are events where ranged jobs are more favoured then frontline jobs, or where mostly BLM is more favourite then SMN etc.

I am not advertising for FFXIV to go the same route as FFXI, its a totally different game and thats fine. But i wish for it to have at least some more diversity in gear/crossclass abilitys etc even if it throws the balance a bid off the edge.

Mind you i am currently unsubed to 14 (since march) and havent preordered Heavensward, nor will i preorder it. The reason is that all announcements up till now have all been about Fates/Alexander Coil/Hunts/Dungeons etc. the basic stuff you had in 2.0, with no big changes. I will take a look at it again when i see what changed. If it is the same as 2.0 I prolly wont touch it.

[Draylo]

I mean, sure, congrats? Enjoy the laughter, I guess? Haha. You can link this to your facebook feed with a "FINALLY, HAHAHA!" post if that's your thing, Dray. Get a few likes and words of encouragement from gramma or something.

Thanks, I will for sure. I tend to keep out of this section all together for obvious reasons but I couldn't pass that one up. FYI, I am subbed to the game and have been since 1.0 in support. I want the game to get better as I love all FF games but the irony in these few pages was too much.

[Lucavi]

the flaws of FFXIs gear progression back then in the past are inevidently true, but the current gearprogression in XI is very well done. Each new cycle of events added pieces of gear that were clear upgrades or very decent sidegrades that offered unique stats. Despite the fact that FFXI offers so much diversity in gear collection and job combination, the jobs are somewhat balanced now to most degree (believe it!) if played to their fullest potential. It all depends tough on the event you are trying to do, some are better suited for one event, some for other, but all can do the events and deliver what they need to deliver. This is evidently true for FFXIV too, there are events where ranged jobs are more favoured then frontline jobs, or where mostly BLM is more favourite then SMN etc.

I would agree 100%, however, the onus is on the one who provides the game to also provide context within the game that solidifies the strength of their answer. Just a blanket "XI's system" is a terribly poor decision when XI has such a massive number of specific examples on both extremes to draw from. I am just as justified in responding that having only Drg AF, that shitty level 73-ish dragon set, Scorp Harness, Crimson armor, and Assault Curiass as options in the RotZ era make for a poor showing of "balanced" gear diversity and "intelligent choices", especially if the question asked was "how close are each of these choices when determining the highest DPS increase for Drg at 75?"

Obviously XI tightened up the disparity between sets in later years, but it falls on one citing XI as an excellent example of balance to.. you know... actually provide EXAMPLES of said balance. Otherwise the opposition can tear the shit out of it.

That's why I framed the question the way I did, and that's why I asked for specific examples (including screenshots). I haven't seen everything that's been introduced into XI after around 2012, so if the gear has tightened up that much, it's good to be able to look at examples. If you just say "oh, dude, XI is all about balanced horizontal gear diversity!", prepare to have all of its history, including 2004, included in the rebuttal, especially if that was the era in which I played.

Edit: Also, you're speaking with your wallet. That's what I would expect someone who isn't feeling it with the product to do. I did the same thing, but I came back to test out the expansion with the GF.

[Sho]

Is he?

As far as a low key jab, lol.

[Lucavi]

As far as a low key jab, lol.

Only because of bullshit start-up frames. MKX jabs.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not going to even try to engage you on the topic of XI gear until/unless we first establish that gearswapping was a necessary and vitally important part of that game. I mean, since that now seems to be in question around here.

But even outside of that: what, exactly, was the great peril that you just described? Was it that there wasn't enough gear to collect in XI because you just got your one piece of perfect gear per slot and then had nothing else to do? Of all XI's faults, that's the furthest from the truth.

First of all, that's your point, not mine. My initial request from you contained nothing in regards to this, so I'm not obligated to respond to it at all.

Actually, here is my point:

Gear diversity is ipso facto a good thing. It creates additional incentive for players to participate in a wider variety of content. Furthermore, I do not recognize the "threat to balance" that said diversity purportedly represents, and I have yet to see any evidence to support that claim. So from where I sit, it is all reward with near-zero risk.

Now, if you want to dispute that, feel free to show your work.

So? Was that a crime? Did that offend you that deeply? Does what I said about in XI in 2008 wound you so, such that you'd continue to bring it up in 2015?

Only when you try to criticize people for issuing the same kinds of complaints you've been generating for a decade... but for a game they actually still play.

Like I said before - many times - what I did was the far more reasonable of the two options if the alternative is continuing to pay for something that drives you nuts while complaining about systems that, if ever will be changed, will be changed literal years after the complaint was made.

Hey, no objection to taking your ball and going home. Just don't stand at the edge of the court for the next 3 years screaming about how basketball is stupid and the rules are broken. Leave that to the people who actually want to play.

None of this would even have come up if you didn't try to claim the moral high ground about dead-ender complaints. You have been a professional FF complainer for the better part of a decade... and now you're trying to lecture other people about how their complaining is pointless? Please.

[Draylo]

I'm not going to even try to engage you on the topic of XI gear until/unless we first establish that gearswapping was a necessary and vitally important part of that game. I mean, since that now seems to be in question around here.

Holy shit @that linked post, so much wrong in there. Did nobody say anything? lol That guy has so much hate for that game.

[Elcura]

Gear diversity is ipso facto a good thing. It creates additional incentive for players to participate in a wider variety of content. Furthermore, I do not recognize the "threat to balance" that said diversity purportedly represents, and I have yet to see any evidence to support that claim. So from where I sit, it is all reward with near-zero risk.

How diverse is gear supposed to be, how effective are the stats and how can they replace or enhance current stats and gameplay mechanics? At what point does "enhanced cover/rampart" outweigh +20 parry? Or +40? Would enhanced Fists of Fire be better than just having determination? Does it change gameplay at all? Can I focus on making MNK a hard hitter not fast or a tank in certain situations? Can I make BRD rely less on crit procs of Bloodletter for more AoE longevity? How does gear that affects cooldowns change encounter balance, or job balance? How effective would a haste stat be, how valued would gear be that had haste on it? What if gear several levels outweighs the current content gear? What if it doesn't and you now you have a bunch of gear you might not use, or replace linearly anyway like you do now? This is only what I can think of but you have 10 jobs each with their own potential sets, effects and setups, which also affects level cap increases, new job releases, hell it could even affect races individually.

Either it's really diverse but not effective, which is essentially the same as it is now since there are obvious clear choices and goals based on certain content, or it's diverse and effective which clearly affects balance negatively. Whether you weigh the threat to balance as acceptable is irrelevant to the point that it is affected.

It's pretty easy to see how the more complex gear gets the harder things are to balance. The more straight forward gear is, the less of the above is a problem. But I'm sure I've said this before one way or another.

[Lucavi]

It's pretty easy to see how the more complex gear gets the harder things are to balance. The more straight forward gear is, the less of the above is a problem. But I'm sure I've said this before one way or another.

I think everyone's said it at one point or another. Its just not going to be a focus anytime soon. Clearly its not a deal-breaker for anyone who's still here, but that won't stop the longing with trembling eyes.

But even outside of that: what, exactly, was the great peril that you just described?

You can't see the "great peril" about having raid-ready BIS-equivalent gear dropping at dungeon content within the level-range Brayflops normal within a game that doesn't have gear-swapping? I don't even need to include anything on gear-swapping because it's not coming to ARR. So... alright, then. Nothing more to say. Moving on.

Gear diversity is ipso facto a good thing. It creates additional incentive for players to participate in a wider variety of content. Furthermore, I do not recognize the "threat to balance" that said diversity purportedly represents, and I have yet to see any evidence to support that claim. So from where I sit, it is all reward with near-zero risk.

Would that SE shared your sentiment, right? Then, perhaps you could be discussing its inclusion within the game instead of merely your desire to see it so. Near-zero risk means little when no one's actually doing it. No one. Not one MMORPG since XI has sniffed the fumes of horizontal progression or gear-swapping anywhere near to the extent that XI gave off, and we all know where XI's heading in about... what... 6 months? As far as I see it, the near-zero figure relates to those who aren't worried about replacing vertical progression with horizontal, as I'd say that's roughly the chance of the system suddenly swapping on its head in favor of your preferred system.

I don't think you get it: the one who isn't clamoring for a change is the one who assumes the near-zero risk perch ontop of the rock, not you. You want what you quite literally cannot have.

Only when you try to criticize people for issuing the same kinds of complaints you've been generating for a decade... but for a game they actually still play.

This is about as empty a statement as they get. I guess my only response to this is: okay? Glad to hear your opinion, I guess. Moving on.

None of this would even have come up if you didn't try to claim the moral high ground about dead-ender complaints.

Aww, now lets not start lying on a nice Wednesday afternoon, shall we? Myself and 2008 and XI always seems to come up with you when you see my avatar floating around. You can spin it however you want, baby: you can't get enough of talkin' about ol' Gelwain. Honesty is good for the soul.

[Spider-Dan]

At what point does "enhanced cover/rampart" outweigh +20 parry? Or +40? Would enhanced Fists of Fire be better than just having determination? Does it change gameplay at all? Can I focus on making MNK a hard hitter not fast or a tank in certain situations? Can I make BRD rely less on crit procs of Bloodletter for more AoE longevity? How does gear that affects cooldowns change encounter balance, or job balance? How effective would a haste stat be, how valued would gear be that had haste on it? What if gear several levels outweighs the current content gear? What if it doesn't and you now you have a bunch of gear you might not use, or replace linearly anyway like you do now?

These all sound like interesting questions with potentially complex answers. Luckily, instead, we just go to Savage Alex and whatever drops from there is best!

I'm also puzzled by the supposedly fragile, head-of-pin balance in this game... as they prepare to introduce 5 new abilities for each job, many of which will change your battle strategy entirely. Sure, they are turning BRD into a caster, but if a new piece of gear has some cooldown reduction on it, suddenly the camel's back is broken?

[Elcura]

These all sound like interesting questions with potentially complex answers. Luckily, instead, we just go to Savage Alex and whatever drops from there is best!

I'm also puzzled by the supposedly fragile, head-of-pin balance in this game... as they prepare to introduce 5 new abilities for each job, many of which will change your battle strategy entirely. Sure, they are turning BRD into a caster, but if a new piece of gear has some cooldown reduction on it, suddenly the camel's back is broken?

It's not sudden, it's gradual. Each new piece of gear has to fit into the picture as a whole, each new fight needs to consider said gear or gear combinations, some fights might be trivialized because of it, some fights might be impossible without it, new abilities and cap increases further increase the burden. Is that worth the hassle? I'm not sure if it is and I'm not even sure if I want to find out at this point. As the game grows and new content is added, things become harder to figure out and predict to the point where eventually it becomes impossible unless something gives.

It wouldn't happen immediately, but it certainly would hemorrhage eventually.

[Spider-Dan]

You can't see the "great peril" about having raid-ready BIS-equivalent gear dropping at dungeon content within the level-range Brayflops normal within a game that doesn't have gear-swapping?

Again, I can't address this point unless you first concede that gearswapping was critical in XI. It's pointless to sit here and argue about P.Charm being the final perfect neckpiece at LV33 as if WS gorgets didn't exist; such a discussion is too far removed from reality to be worth having.

Would that SE shared your sentiment, right? Then, perhaps you could be discussing its inclusion within the game instead of merely your desire to see it so.

It took you an awfully long time to get around to saying, "This is the status quo, therefore it's good!" Would that you favored that sentiment around, say, 2006.

Myself and 2008 and XI always seems to come up with you when you see my avatar floating around.

Only when you turn your hypocrisy engine on overdrive and start criticizing everything you've been guilty of doing for years. If the 2015 version of you was around to slap the Bush-era version of you back in line, I wouldn't have such a rich collection of golden posts to link to.

It's not sudden, it's gradual. Each new piece of gear has to fit into the picture as a whole, each new fight needs to consider said gear or gear combinations, some fights might be trivialized because of it, some fights might be impossible without it, new abilities and cap increases further increase the burden.

Maybe. And then again, maybe not.

This isn't an arcade game with a final revision that players are stuck with until the end of time. This game already receives many dynamic balance adjustments, even with coma-inducing gear and cross-classing that's completely on rails. So what, exactly, is the dystopian future where some of those bi-monthly patches have balance adjustments to the then-current meta because of diverse gear? We are already living in that world with boring gear.

[Elcura]

Maybe. And then again, maybe not.

This isn't an arcade game with a final revision that players are stuck with until the end of time. This game already receives many dynamic balance adjustments, even with coma-inducing gear and cross-classing that's completely on rails. So what, exactly, is the dystopian future where some of those bi-monthly patches have balance adjustments to the then-current meta because of diverse gear? We are already living in that world with boring gear.

Maybe the game will get more complex and the burden will get greater, or maybe not? I don't think that's how it works. The burden always increases, it isn't a matter of maybe it's a matter of when.

I'll ask that you consider what balancing actually is, it's not some far reaching conceptual idea that if you do x then y falls in line PUT THAT IN THE GAME AND SHIP IT. I can't even begin to imagine what would happen in the future if you had diverse gear, mainly because I have no idea what you would consider diverse, what is effective etc, there's so much to think about even in an argument that doesn't mean anything.

I don't want to imagine doing that for all jobs and gear sets, hell how many is enough? I can't tell you what dystopian future awaits (that's like an essay) but I'm certain would come sooner or later. How many people have to suffer through sloppy design before they get it right? What if they never get it right?

I mean ultimately everything boils down to "they could've done it?" and it's true they could've. But life and production aren't at all kind and deadlines as well as money are a thing. Ideally they would have the time they need, people would have the patience to help them get it right and so on. But we don't live in such a pretty world.

[Ramset]

Holy fuck, what happened?

Reading these last few pages...what.

Outside of the obviously personal arguments...In general, there's two sides here: 1) People expressing their thoughts and feeling about the game, and desires for change. 2) People telling the people in group #1 to stop having opinions because nothing is going to change. For the most part, everyone who is posting on this topic (hell, this forum) is pretty invested in the game (or so it seems). We all have our opinions and I think want to see the game succeed. That's all the people in group #1 are trying to express: ways in which they think the game could be improved that would have positive effects on everyone. Why do the people in group #2 feel compelled to try and "shut down" group #1's voice?

Of course this is a discussion board and we're all talking and everyone has opinions, but I don't see why #2 even exists. It just doesn't seem like a healthy discussion. Everyone is aware that their opinion on this forum isn't going to dictate or shape the course of this game, but we're all RPG nerds who have our own flavors of enjoyment; why's the discussion gotta get so negative?

Let's summarize:

• Gear is not broken - but it's boring as fuck and itemization/gear rewards could be vastly improved.
• There's a distinct lack of meaningful mid-core content. You get to choose "face-roll" or Binding Coil.
• FFXIV != FFXI != Wildstar != WoW. We all know this, but past experiences are a perfectly reasonable place to draw inspiration from.
• On balancing: EVERYTHING has to be balanced. When a new fight is implemented they have to think about Ranged VS Melee DPS, etc. That's why we have circular arenas because it minimizes variables. We all know this stuff, everyone here is reasonably intelligent. However, we shouldn't stop considering or wanting new possibilities because it might "break the mold" of ARR. It's an expansion, EXPAND don't just cookie-cut the original and stick a new name on it.
• To the previous point, and point about mid-core. Hopefully Airship content, and the other stuff YoshiP has hinted add will add more options in this area. I totally agree with what was said about FFXI brings back stories of triumph in sea, Promyvion, BCNM, whatever.. Lots of FFXIV content is unmemorable.
• Eventually everything in this game turns into a grind, you can get the highest ilvl in a reasonable amount of time if you play every day and if you're a skilled player everything becomes easy. However, the people that keep playing obviously enjoy the game -- adding new gear options and mid-core content isn't going to break the camels back; it's going to enhance the experience.
• Also obviously, SE is choosing their battles. Because gear does currently "work" it's not a high priority for re-design, but that DOESN'T mean that it can't be improved.
• In closing -- why not positively discuss how design changes could enhance the playing experience instead of arguing. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" is what old white people said about slavery, probably.

[Sho]

Only because of bullshit start-up frames. MKX jabs.

Fuck everything about MKX jabs.

[Lucavi]

Fuck everything about MKX jabs.

Not as bad as Cage's 12121212.

"You gotta hold dat, nigga!"

[Sho]

Not as bad as Cage's 12121212.

"You gotta hold dat, nigga!"

Rather pick new DLC character and try to scumbag a win at a major.

[Karbuncle]

and we all know where XI's heading in about... what... 6 months?

Yah but I mean, 13 years of profitable service means something. Gear variety was to many essentially all XI had going for it. The combat was fun for some, i personally liked it, but a lot of it was the wild gear choices I had, the options and role variety I could take just by swapping gear. The only MMO i can think of that's succeeded well with the WoW-model has been WoW, the other WoW clones usually (while not being completely dead) plummet in popularity shortly after release, most if not all going free-to-play within a couple months or less and losing almost all player interest.

I know what you're getting at I believe... but yah, we know FFXI is going to stop getting content updates (for whatever reason I can't fathom as it seemingly still quite profitable), but its been going a good 13 years and has remained profitable and reasonably popular in that time, though with obvious decreasing interest (its bound to happen to any game). It may not have ever been as wildly popular as XIV or WoW, but its got a lot on the ocean of WoW clones and dead shit released since then.