Paladin 3.0 - Now with +1 Button

[nyttyn]

DRK and WAR getting butchered, I can't help but feel there's a bit of panic going on there. Sure, PLD has utility, but Divine Veil and Clemency are still garbage and Passage of Arms has awkward position requirements, kills your damage while it's being channeled, and it's not an enormous effect. Intervention is absolutely cool but still, short duration and requires burning a CD to get the most out of it. Warrior has great mobility (a selling point that will depend on encounter design), enormous burst, superior AoE, brings the slashing resist down debuff (which will be a big selling point in parties which lack a Nin or Sam), and still has the best self sustain. And DRK gets a 15 second trick attack on a 120 second cool down which is...pretty damn good? I'd note blackest night but wow a 5s duration small shield that's divine veil levels of whatever.

Numbers will be adjusted but I wouldn't be surprised if PLD winds up having the highest single target damage by a modest margin when all's said and done and honestly, that's fine since it still has the worst AoE and doesn't have the flexible burst WAR has or the dmg taken debuff DRK brings. And on top of that, PLD DPS seems like it'll suffer in situations where they have to deal with jump phases, forced movement, etc that will limit when they can get the most out of Fight or Flight and especially Requiescat.

[solracht]

The math definitely doesn't show WAR burst being impressive compared to PLD's right now. People are still crunching numbers, but this is from the Balance discord: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...z5SRfNAEx_ysng

Inner Release Berserk (9GCDs) is 7300 potency. Regular Berserk (9GCDs) is 5500 potency. Compare those to 9 PLD GCDs during their burst windows (look for FoF or Requiescat) and adjust for Goring ticks and Sword Oath ticks. I'm getting roughly 5500 for each. WAR's burst is higher with Inner Release but their overall DPS is so behind that it really doesn't feel like it's going to matter. Also keep in mind PLD has the option of chaining FoF Goring into Requiescat for an even better burst window at the cost of overall DPS, so I definitely wouldn't say WAR has more flexible windows.

If you guys think any 3 tanks look viable right now then you must've thought PLD was perfectly fine this last expansion.

EDIT: changed potencies because I'm retarded

[Obsidian]

Edit: Doubled somehow.

[nyttyn]

In theory, with the data we have avalible to us right now, absolutely PLD just shatters WAR and dunks DRK too. Kinda. Mostly. (That spread sheet's super flawed in that it makes a serious assumption that you'll be able to get off all your holy spirit casts hassle free, and it fails to take into account auto-attack potency or the fact that spells don't scale with skill speed.)

But I can't help but feel it's a bit meaningless to panic right now, when the numbers could be different in launch, and when factors in stormblood's fights may mean that the spreadsheet rotations don't line up with what's possible in reality. That may mean there's less of a gulf than there's appearing to be on paper, it may mean there's even more of a gulf, but in theory at least all three tank kits will be comparable if the numbers are tuned properly. Given how much thought they've clearly put into all of the various changes (save for WHM which is...just...huh???), I'm willing to put some faith in there being a patch within launch that fixes any numbers issues, and that's assuming they aren't already fixed on launch.

All I'm saying is, let the expansion launch since it's just a week away, let's see how things shake out at level 70 in a live enviroment, and then if it turns out that the situation's really that bad then begin making loud noises to get SE to fix the tank balance.

[Obsidian]

Holy Spirit doesn't benefit from Fight or Flight (or any other attack potency buff), nor does it benefit from slashing debuffs. You also can't auto while casting, so PLD is looking at 350 + (516 * 6) for ~3500 potency assuming our MP pool grows enough to allow for 6 consecutive casts.

If you think WAR or DRK are comparable now to how PLD was for the entirety of Heavensward, you've lost your mind.

[solracht]

Holy Spirit doesn't benefit from Fight or Flight (or any other attack potency buff), nor does it benefit from slashing debuffs. You also can't auto while casting, so PLD is looking at 350 + (516 * 6) for ~3500 potency assuming our MP pool grows enough to allow for 6 consecutive casts.

I didn't say use FoF for Holy Spirit, I said you could chain FoF into the Holy Spirit combo. If we're going for the best theoretical 20s/9GCD burst window on PLD (to compare with Berserk) then the first 10s would come from FoF Goring + Royal + oGCDs (physical) and the last 10s from Requescat + Holy Spirit (magical).

Chaining your two burst windows like this is overall a DPS loss (which is why it doesn't show in the sheet), what I'm saying is if we're talking about a theoretical situation where WAR's Inner Release burst is absolutely needed... PLD does have the option to sacrifice overall DPS to gain short term burst. That's just crazy to me, even if I don't believe it'll ever be practical or needed.

Also: Holy Spirit is affected by Requiescat (1.2 modifier) and with a 2s castime and 2.5s recast you should be getting some autos between Holy Spirits. The spreadsheet already calculates this. You also only get 5 Spirits unless Sheltron can grant you a 6th one (not that it matters because Requiescat falls off during the 6th cast).

Even without counting any Sword Oath procs at all, your optimal 20s-long Requiescat burst (without timing FoF for half of it, but assuming slashing on) should still be about 5100 potency (Goring plus 6/7 ticks, Royal Authority combo, Requiescat, Holy Spirit x5).

EDIT: Didn't realize all of PLD's weaponskills got potency boosts, my math used the old potencies and I also had Requiescat's potency wrong (100pot lower). Fixed above, the result is ~200 extra potency.

That spread sheet's super flawed in that it makes a serious assumption that you'll be able to get off all your holy spirit casts hassle free, and it fails to take into account auto-attack potency or the fact that spells don't scale with skill speed.)

The spreadsheet uses a 2.5 GCD with 2s castimes for Holy Spirits (base) as opposed to the 2.43GCD that's used for the all the other physical weaponskills. Also casting on PLD doesn't get interrupted by damage anymore and you can slidecast while moving. There are some flaws and certain assumptions for sure, but that's not one of them.

But I can't help but feel it's a bit meaningless to panic right now, when the numbers could be different in launch, and when factors in stormblood's fights may mean that the spreadsheet rotations don't line up with what's possible in reality.

Discussing changes and numbers with the information we have available and four years worth of experience with how endgame encounters work in this game shouldn't be considered "panicking" in BGforum out of all places, but whatever.

[Carth]

DRK and WAR getting butchered, I can't help but feel there's a bit of panic going on there. Sure, PLD has utility, but Divine Veil and Clemency are still garbage...

Divine Veil has awkward activation requirements, but I'm of the opinion the effect itself only increased in value, especially now since Stoneskin has been completely erased. It's only real issue now is the long cooldown.

Clemency, sure (it actually got better with the new trait, but we'll never Clemency since we have Holy Spirit now).

[Alisha]

I honestly think pld is gonna be the new premier off tank I mean intervention and cover are kinda trash if the pld is main tanking. and a OT pld can more freely use rampart and sentinel with intervention on the MT.

[Faytte]

Clemency, sure (it actually got better with the new trait, but we'll never Clemency since we have Holy Spirit now).

Really? It can't be interrupted with the new trait. You can start to cast it just as a tank buster reaches half cast and it'll go off right after you take damage. That's amazing.

[nyttyn]

It's not really worthwhile to...panic is a strong word, yes, but be gloomy about the numbers just yet? It seems they aren't final numbers (example: we've just learned cure 2 has a 100% lily proc rate. Not to say that excuses what an atrocious stillbirth of design Lilies are, but it does highlight the fact the numbers we have are decidedly not the final numbers), on top of us not knowing what the endgame's gonna be like. Best to just get excited for the new toys now, and wait to see how the balance shakes out once it's actually in our hands.

As for Clemency, I think there might be room for it depending on how the numbers shake out for Sheltron, or if we can convince casters to shoot us a MP transfer. Actually it'd be nice if they do that in general since it'd mean more Holy Spirits. Or we can maybe convince the rDPS to give us their "new" MP cross-class as well for even more Holy Spirits...

[Obsidian]

Really? It can't be interrupted with the new trait. You can start to cast it just as a tank buster reaches half cast and it'll go off right after you take damage. That's amazing.

I personally would rather use that MP on Holy Spirit since the healers are going to cure bomb you after a buster anyway. PLD's MP regen is still kinda ass and Clemency costs a lot more than Holy Spirit.

[solracht]

Clemency has the same MP cost as Holy Spirit (1440) and it takes about a full minute to refill your MP bar as long as you're not forced to use enmity combos. That's 5 spells per minute without including situational MP sources like Refresh or Sheltron (960MP per use and ~2 times per min in Sword Oath), but most importantly all 5 can be cast in a row if you pool MP.

Ultimately Clemency directly competes with Holy Spirit, which means it has a "hidden" cost of 430-516 potency for the PLD right now without considering party buffs (322-387 in Shield Oath). That trade won't be worth making regularly, although it could happen in very niche situations now that the spell can't get interrupted. Regardless and like I said above, the option to output significant self-sustain (or even sustain period) if the need ever arises is definitely there.

[AlastorTGN]

Isn't Passage of Arms complete overkill?

[Obsidian]

In what way?

[AlastorTGN]

Just seems like we have mitigation out the ass all over every class' new abilities, I just can't think of a situation where it'd be like 'oh thank God we can use PoA here'.

[Cantih]

Primal ultimates, wouldn't mind it in Dun.
Basically any predictable raid-wide AoE that you'd currently pop Divine Veil for, now you do both.

[Obsidian]

Pretty sure Stoneskin also doesn't exist anymore so Divine Veil is now the strongest party-wide shield available that I'm aware of.

[nyttyn]

Passage of Arms also serves as another defensive CD for the sake of tankbusters (especially multi-hit ones, which sheltron isn't as good against) and particularly big pulls in dungeons (15% + auto-block is pretty good, will let the healer crap out more AoE), and in addition it combined with Intervention will allow you to delay having to tank-swap or enable the MT to survive things that would otherwise be a death sentence.

[Seravi Edalborez]

PoA sounds silly in one respect: I'm assuming you don't have to be between what you're "blocking" and who is behind you. So I imagine you could be at the boss's ass, turn around, PoA, and it would mitigate for the MT in front.

Picture how incredibly silly that is. Effectiveness aside. You probably wouldn't want to do that unless it's a crazy strong buster given the DPS loss, but it's still interesting.

[Lokus]

You most likely create a conal area behind the PLD so depending on big the area is, might be possible to cheese the skill like that. But they did have blocks only function when hit from the front before so it's even more likely the safe zone only appears if the PLD gets hit from the front.