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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by cute View Post
    I like Spear on MCH with low re cast on Reloading.
    I wish more like you would chime in. I have no idea about any MCH abilities and am always confused who to give spear to. I also see conflicting crap on Reddit in regards to which classes desire which cards.

    I know on BLM, I personally prefer arrow over anything else. It allows you to do 3 F4 for every F1 opposed to 2 F4 for every F1 as well as a whole bunch of other awesome stuff. But I also see a lot of people advocating for melee to get arrow. I understand it in MNK's case as it allows them to ramp up faster if they don't have PB up but I still think it benefits BLM the most if given at the right time.

    I'm also tending to cancel expanded RR more often than not that comes from spear. Unless it's an expanded balance, I just don't see the benefit for the others at half potency.

    After leveling all three healers to 60, AST is really lacking in solo play but very nice in group play. The tweaks will make it so much more fun to play but there are still things that just don't make sense. CU is poorly thought out and impractical, synastry's CD is too long, CO seems lacking. I at least think the extended buff portion should be extended to 10 seconds. I think spear should be retroactive but I highly doubt that will ever be implemented. Ewer and Spire should regenerate MP/TP instead of cutting the cost. Each card's duration should probably be tweaked a little as well.

    You're also really punished for DPSing on AST compared to the other two despite AST having some very nice DPS capabilities in both group play and raid content where accuracy is an issue. I feel that gravity should probably apply a slow to the target to mimic shadowflare. People don't seem to grasp just how big 5% slow is on shadowflare in terms of mitigation and ability to DPS longer before having to heal.

    I leveled WHM right next to AST and the difference between the two was disturbing. As WHM, especially post 58, I could easily pull SCH-like numbers on AoE pulls without running out of MP. Stun offers mitigation and aero 3 gave a much needed AoE DoT. I could easily DS + regen/asylum and not have to heal at all. On AST, there really is no safe window. You gravity till the tank is about to die, hop out and ED. At that point, you really have no other options to continue DPSing. It's a detriment to do so since your MP regeneration is crap. I've had to completely stop on bosses at certain points because I just couldn't keep up with the cost of combust II and combust.

    I don't think healing potency necessarily needs to be fixed. If we're supposed to be the super efficient class with weaker heals, we need an edge on MP efficiency in other areas. Heck, making Ewer regenerate MP alone would give us this edge.

  2. #142
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    WHM is definitely more comfortable as far as feeling like I'm in control, it just has beefier everything. Assize is a damn godsend of an ability and really helps with mp management. I feel the same as Hitome about WHM vs AST nuking. I get that it's good they're different, but it's a bad kind of different in this case. Like AST is underpowered comparatively.

    Also, healing A4 on WHM, anytime I get paired with an AST in DF (with one exception so far), my mp runs dry trying to keep up with the loss of healing power from their side. This could be due to just running into a lot of bad AST - I really haven't met many good ones sadly - but it's pretty annoying as I have to essentially make up for the healing the AST isn't doing. I think a few AST abilities rely on proximity position to other party members however and the healer debuff in phase 3 really cripples that for a good portion of the time.

    I'm looking forward to any tweaks SE decides to make for the job. AST is a nascent job without all the reflection WHM and SCH have gotten over the time ARR was developing, so there's bound to be some development in store for it too.

  3. #143

    AST DPS can be as simple as taking the time to throw Combust I/II up before switching out of Cleric, healing to full (or refreshing regens/cards) then doing it again. Bole tends to help immensely as well for any kind of nuking.

    I also would like to hear more job input about what cards are good. I thought BRD could also benefit from Spear since they have a lot of oGCDs, but because Bloodletter can reset, I dunno how effective it would be overall. MAC seems obvious, and perhaps SMN too for faster Aetherflow?

    Placing Spear on anyone but myself seems unreliable at best, I would figure tanks would be great but considering you could give it to them and they might not have a thing to use I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burningthought View Post
    I can't put on my finger on exactly what changed between A4 clear and my subsequent clears but the fight is a lot easier. I think it had to do some of the people in the group not having a grasp on mechanics. The rest of my A4's have been a lot easier on healing, my only issue now is that if DPS is a little slow near the end I start to run out of MP. I've had to go through A4 without mch or brds and it kinda sucks without the extra breathing room. You just have to make sure that you aren't overcuring and that you really weigh Benefic over Helios in certain situations to save MP.

    Synastry is also a really important ability that separates bad ASTs from the good ones.

    Cards became easier to deal with as I got more used to the fight. When your habits set in its easier to churn out cards during the fight. If i'm having a lot of shitty rolls I won't worry about Royal Road or Spreading and i'll just pop the plain card buff and add time dilation or CO just so dps's don't have to wait any longer.

    Also, AST+AST sucks dick for any activity. I'm hoping that the tweaks next week will make nocturnal sect worth it.
    A4 is definitely rough on healers if people don't know the mechanics and being careless with Helios casts (rather than relying mostly on Benefic) tends to cause more harm than good. Seems to me that AST is all about learning how fucking amazing it is. Pair regens with Time Dilation/OP, lined up with card buffs and fucking Benefic everything. Especially in A4, unless people are being absolutely retarded there isn't much reason to Helios over Benefic.

    I also find myself pairing Swiftcast with A. Helios because the sooner I can cast Benefic the better, if I can't Swiftcast it I try to make sure I have ES ready (same with Benefic 2 proc).

    I generally feel bad for AST, but it's not a very straightforward healer.

  4. #144

    A4 just seems like one of those fights where either it goes very smoothly or it goes horribly wrong.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    AST DPS can be as simple as taking the time to throw Combust I/II up before switching out of Cleric, healing to full (or refreshing regens/cards) then doing it again.
    Truth. Back in SCoB progression this is all it took on my SCH for us to beat enrage.

  6. #146
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    If no one is about to pop big cooldowns and I am not near my Luminiferous Aether or Draw timer, then I like giving spear to Summoners for their Aetherflow if it's about to come up. Since spear lasts 20 seconds I can almost always give it to them for some benefit unless they literally just used it (assuming I can't spread it).

  7. #147
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    so after a while i think ast only needs some small tweaks:

    - LA being a bit more potent (there are times where i am really hurting for MP compared to my healing partner that isnt AST especially when shit hits the fan)
    - lessening the cure potency penalty by half on our chainspell ability and removeing the DPS penalty completly for slight burst dpsing
    - an additional ability on a 2 min timer enhances your aspected regen or shielding

    and the shiffle adjustent. thats it

  8. #148
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    AST needs a 2nd mp regen ability for heal-intensive fights. SCH has Aetherflow (and a fairy bombing free cures) and WHM has shroud and assize.
    Lumi is fine as it is, but give AST another ability that gives the same amount of MP assize does. If everything's going to be samey anyway, may as well make it fair.

  9. #149

    I don't think it's even close to the same when you can Spear and Ewer yourself. What's the most heal intensive fight currently? Alex 4? Certainly doesn't need a 2nd ability for that.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I don't think it's even close to the same when you can Spear and Ewer yourself. What's the most heal intensive fight currently? Alex 4? Certainly doesn't need a 2nd ability for that.
    You'll run into MP issues if you're DPSing full time, as you should be/are able to on every piece of content available right now. If you draw 0 Ewer cards while going full time DPS you will time run dry on MP.

    In actual content (read: Savage Mode) you'll be DPSing far less and probably trying to control your overhealing so I doubt MP issues will be as bad, but I think right now it's just highlighted due to how easy current content is. Among the 3 healers, AST has the worst MP management tools so it becomes more noticeable.

  11. #151

    Quote Originally Posted by Uryuu View Post
    You'll run into MP issues if you're DPSing full time, as you should be/are able to on every piece of content available right now. If you draw 0 Ewer cards while going full time DPS you will time run dry on MP.

    In actual content (read: Savage Mode) you'll be DPSing far less and probably trying to control your overhealing so I doubt MP issues will be as bad, but I think right now it's just highlighted due to how easy current content is. Among the 3 healers, AST has the worst MP management tools so it becomes more noticeable.
    I don't understand what you're saying.

    You run out of MP if you constantly use it yes that doesn't mean AST has MP problems it means stop going full retard with your DPS...and in general. DPSing full time is keeping Combust up and using cards, not spamming Malefic 2 until you run dry then complaining that AST has shitty MP management (DPS you can't sustain isn't exactly good DPS). Saying it has the worst tools is fair because it does but in no way does that mean ASTs MP management is even slightly lacking, just that you can't be absolutely stupid with it and get away with shit.

    Cards and Luminiferous are more than enough, but I suppose people want more tools to go super retard I mean I don't get it.

  12. #152
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    I will cherish PIE more we have the level of equal item for choosing.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I don't understand what you're saying.

    You run out of MP if you constantly use it yes that doesn't mean AST has MP problems it means stop going full retard with your DPS...and in general. DPSing full time is keeping Combust up and using cards, not spamming Malefic 2 until you run dry then complaining that AST has shitty MP management (DPS you can't sustain isn't exactly good DPS). Saying it has the worst tools is fair because it does but in no way does that mean ASTs MP management is even slightly lacking, just that you can't be absolutely stupid with it and get away with shit.

    Cards and Luminiferous are more than enough, but I suppose people want more tools to go super retard I mean I don't get it.
    I mean, if you're one of those healers who believes healers shouldn't DPS, then sure, I guess it can be seen as "retarded". [Official Forums]Tanks shouldn't DPS either and wearing STR accessories is also retarded.[/Official Forums] I guess the fact that you were confused as to how AST had MP issues more or less shows that's your attitude on the issue, lol.

    Even when going all out, other healers won't run dry nearly as fast as AST. That's the whole point of the post, friend.

  14. #154
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    ASTs don't need the enmity drop that Luminferous Aether gives; not in the slightest. Remove it and either increase the potency of the refresh, increase the duration, or decrease the cooldown. Or some combination of the three. That alone would go a long way. I'm not quite sure if it'd be enough in lengthy, drawn-out fights, but it's a start.

  15. #155

    Quote Originally Posted by Uryuu View Post
    I mean, if you're one of those healers who believes healers shouldn't DPS, then sure, I guess it can be seen as "retarded". [Official Forums]Tanks shouldn't DPS either and wearing STR accessories is also retarded.[/Official Forums] I guess the fact that you were confused as to how AST had MP issues more or less shows that's your attitude on the issue, lol.
    I know you love making wild assumptions and talking out of your ass, but can you at least try to reign in your ignorance about shit you couldn't possible know about?

    If you didn't get what I mean, there's a difference between smart DPS and retarded DPS. I said DPS'ing full time includes keeping Combusts up and using cards not going full retard with Malefic, and you take that to mean I don't do or like DPS'ing? Even though I've been talking about AST DPS in this very topic? You aren't very smart if that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uryuu View Post
    Even when going all out, other healers won't run dry nearly as fast as AST. That's the whole point of the post, friend.
    Err, they will. Do you even DPS?

    The difference between healers is literally how they recover MP, not how fast they run out of it being retarded because guess what? All healers run out of MP when they DPS like retards. What you're complaining about is being able to go full retard then recover MP without having thought about shit. Good for you. AST doesn't need MP recovery increase just to allow you to be dumb and not have to worry about it.

    My point is that doing that is stupid and if you're complaining about MP on AST then stop playing it like a dumb, friend.

  16. #156
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    Your statement shows a lack of general knowledge about the other healing classes. I assume you only have AST at 60 and you assume this makes you knowledgable about the other classes because you "play with them". But as someone who has all 3 classes at 60 and has played them in all content, if you believe that healers run out of MP at the same rate when DPSing then you're either just completely uninformed or playing with shitters who don't dps.

    You obviously didn't read all of my first post on the topic are are trying really hard to troll me. Either way, if you're going to deny that Astro has MP issues when full time DPSing compared to the other 2 healing classes also doing the same thing then you're either arguing just to argue or are trying to speak on something you have no experience about.

  17. #157

    I'd like to see where or when I said any of the things you think I said. Or maybe you'd like to continue making those wild assumptions. Yeah I only have AST at 60, but it's not like I need personal experience to figure simple shit out.

    It's not a 1:1 rate obviously, but if you can recover MP then you aren't going to run out as fast. AST DPS is cheap as it is (amongst the cheapest), and you're only saying AST will run out if cards aren't an issue (so ignoring Spear/Ewer because that's fair).

    edit: It really is funny, because people only seem to look at AST if you ignore things AST can do. I could indulge you but if you want to ignore one of ASTs key abilities while saying another is weak then I dunno what to think. The fact that AST can easily keep pace with other healers while ignoring a key ability should tell you something.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elcura View Post
    I'd like to see where or when I said any of the things you think I said. Or maybe you'd like to continue making those wild assumptions. Yeah I only have AST at 60, but it's not like I need personal experience to figure simple shit out.
    Lol. Alright, all I needed to know. Thanks. We're done here.

  19. #159

    We were done a while ago.

  20. #160
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    I just don't get how you think AST doesn't have MP issues. Many people in this thread have commented on it: myself included. Several of us have leveled all the healers to 60 and can compare the three.

    WHM is an endless pool of mana at the moment. I think they'll have the easiest time in stressful content. SCH has issues if they spam broil too much but they have other ways besides aetherflow to regenerate their mana. Their fairy also makes up a portion of their healing, producing free heals on the raid and can be micro'd to improve the potency of physick and adlo. Two of their AoE heals require no mana at all and one requires just the mana of a single target cure to apply raid-wide mitigation equivalent to the original target's heal amount (and more if it crits.).

    What does AST have? Shroud of Saints. They are in the same boat WHM was in for a majority of 2.x. Even with Ewer, it only reduces the MP cost by 20% for 20 s. Let's assume you constantly spam benefic for those 20 seconds. You save around ~700 MP out of a 10~12k MP pool. And this only occurs when you spam benefic constantly for 20 seconds. The reality is that you do not spam benefic that much.

    The other problem is in regards to WHM procs. Our proc for our base heal does not give us a more potent free heal.

    The only thing, in terms of mana efficiency, that you have going for you on AST is the free lustrate every 40 seconds. A large percentage of this heal's use 1) overheals and 2) is only really potent if the target has low HP to begin with.

    I mean, look at our spells compared to WHM:

    Cure 1
    Potency: 400
    MP: 442

    Benefic
    Potency: 380
    MP: 354

    A gain of 88 MP at the cost of 20 potency. Also, you do not get a chance at a free, more potent heal.

    Regen
    Potency: 150
    Effective Potency: 1050
    Duration: 21 s
    MP: 619

    A. Benefic
    Potency: 190 base + 100 for the duration
    Effective Potency: 790
    Duration: 18 s
    MP: 707

    And A.Bene can be wasted due to the initial component but it also can crit. So AST has a regen with 260 less potency and 88 more MP. That's a pretty big loss.

    Then there's the fact that WHM gets their version of ED but with 300 more potency and 20 s longer recast without needing the target to be at low HP. And the fact that asylum can be used with regen as a double regen on tanks for just the cost of a normal regen. And asylum's regen has the same potency as a.benefic's regen.

    Helios beats medica 1 by 177 MP less but does not come with the trait that has a chance to reduce medica's MP cost.

    It's even more pronounced on SCH. 1 energy drain returns 884 MP. You can aetherflow every 60 seconds, returning around 2.4k MP. Assuming you draw one Ewer and one enhanced effect from RR to apply to yourself, you either gain 40 s of Ewer or a more potent Ewer which don't even compare.

    Consider that both combust II (45 pot, 30 s, 618 MP) and bio 2 (35 pot, 30 s, 530 MP) has you spend 88 more MP for 100 more potency coupled with the fact that bio and combust are the same thing, it doesn't exactly scream efficiency. It's a real kick in the nuts when broil and malefic 2 have the same MP cost but there's only a 30 potency difference between the two.

    There should be a much smaller gap in efficiency between AST and the other healers but it just isn't there. I said it before but: making Ewer regenerate MP upon use instead of reducing MP cost would fix a large part of the problem since we will soon be able to spread outside of combat.

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