Thread: Rogue/Ninja 3.0 Discussion    

The other thread was locked since the update.

I've recently returned and wanted to try out ROG/NIN, especially since my only job at 50 was SCH and I am not confident in my healing abilities after returning. I had a few questions that I tried to scan the last thread for, but didn't see the answers in there that I could find.

1. I've noticed a lot of people using Fuma rather than Raiton in streams and such. Is this because of a magical resistance that 50+ mobs have? Raiton has 120 more potency, and unless you have terrible latency issues, I would think that the extra .5 sec to cast Raiton for 120 more potency would win out. I'm guessing there is something I'm missing.

2. I didn't find a straight rotation idea from the last thread unless I'm crazy or it was on page 2 or 3 (because I read all the others). From what I can gather it'd be:
Pre-load Huton > Dancing Edge Combo > Shadow Fang Combo > Mutilate > Suiton/TA (unless it's up sooner) > ????.
After Suiton it seems like basically all of your buffs are going to start wearing. I would guess Armor Crush would be a good idea if you have time to complete it before Huton wears off. I would guess squeeze in an Aeolian Edge combo and then follow up with DE > SF > Mutilate, etc?

3. Is there any real way for me to tell when I should be using Goad? I usually just throw it out at about 25% of Boss HP depending on how quickly it's moving and then again when it's up again. I think they said something about adding TP bars in a future update?

4. Is Doton pretty much just for fodder? Don't see anyone using it really other than a trash pull here and there.

1. Should be Raiton unless your lag is THAT bad, which would make playing NIN difficult anyways.

2. There are some nasty openers out there if you can find em. I was never able to get ahold of one, but a friend of mine had an 870 DPS opener back at level 50 cap, can only imagine what it is now.
2a. Huton should never drop ever during an extended fight now. Armor Crush is fantastic, its essentially 80 potency (Armor Crush x2) loss off Aoelian Edges to get an extra 360 potency every minute from the Raitons that now take the place of the Hutons. HOPEFULLY you have a WAR to keep SP up so you dont have to DE, but SF should always be up, and Mutilate has to last at least 24 seconds for it to be worth it.

3. In dungeons/alex i dont use it, its whatever. Back in Final Coil, I generally gave it out in this order: Someone who just died -> Someone who asked me for it -> MNK when my TP got to 600 after the first invigorate. If a tank asked me for it cuz they were burning through TP or whatever, sure.

4. Doton does 240 potency over its 24 second life span. Katon does 160 AOE immediately. If youre gonna put down Doton, it has to be immediately after mobs are pulled cuz its just wasted if it doesnt last the full duration. Raiton is better against bosses, Katon is better against groups that are <80% health. Its generally not very good.

1) Some people choose to do Fuma because it's easier (either due to lag, or refusal to memorize the combo), and the potency difference is less than you might expect. NIN Wasp/Viper damage buffs only buff physical damage, so that means Fuma becomes (240*1.2)=288 while Raiton stays at 360. With the Slashing debuff (Dancing Edge or Storm's Eye), Fuma becomes 317ish. Still a gap between Fuma and Raiton, but if hitting two mudras causes you to clip into your next GCD, you're better off throwing a Fuma. I think Fuma has longer range too, but that's rarely a factor in the decision.

Originally Posted by Terrestrialrage

3. In dungeons/alex i dont use it, its whatever.

That makes me sad. Any TP-using job spamming AOEs (BRD/WAR come to mind) would really like your Goad during AOE pulls in dungeons.

Originally Posted by Terrestrialrage

2a. Huton should never drop ever during an extended fight now. Armor Crush is fantastic, its essentially 80 potency (Armor Crush x2) loss off Aoelian Edges to get an extra 360 potency every minute from the Raitons that now take the place of the Hutons. HOPEFULLY you have a WAR to keep SP up so you dont have to DE, but SF should always be up, and Mutilate has to last at least 24 seconds for it to be worth it.

So skip AE all together in favor of Armor Crush? Seems to make sense if you're not able to keep Huton up full time while also using AE.

Originally Posted by Sigmakan

3.) DRKs have terrible TP management currently. They run out of TP in 3mins while in tank stance, and 2:20mins when not in tank stance. Goad would be incredibly useful for them

I've only actually had 1 DRK tank (only returned a week ago), but I'll keep it in mind. I think for all the dungeons I've run there's likely very little TP issue considering I'm only at 30 atm.

Originally Posted by Raldo

1) Some people choose to do Fuma because it's easier (either due to lag, or refusal to memorize the combo), and the potency difference is less than you might expect. NIN Wasp/Viper damage buffs only buff physical damage, so that means Fuma becomes (240*1.2)=288 while Raiton stays at 360. With the Slashing debuff (Dancing Edge or Storm's Eye), Fuma becomes 317ish. Still a gap between Fuma and Raiton, but if hitting two mudras causes you to clip into your next GCD, you're better off throwing a Fuma. I think Fuma has longer range too, but that's rarely a factor in the decision.

That makes sense then. It does have 10y more range as well, so it's not bad to throw out if you're also avoiding an attack when Ninjutsu comes back up.

Originally Posted by Terrestrialrage

No no, dont skip AE, just replace any AE that you WOULD do when ur Huton is below 40 seconds remaining with AC. You'll still occassionally use AE, even if you're keeping up DE. Youll definitely use it if you have a WAR using SP.

Definitely need to get maximum value out of AC for it to be useful.

I'm crazy. For some reason I thought Huton was a 20s buff, not 70s to start. I don't even know how I figured that.

personally this is the opener that I use, since I play with a war:

Pre huton, Shadewalker -> Suiton > Shadowfang combo (to give war time to put debuff) > spinning edge (B4B) > gust slash (IR+pot) > trick attack > duality AE > (kassatsu) raiton > DWD+jug > mutilate+mug > Shadowfang combo + goad the DRK

It's a lot of fucking buttons to press in a short period of time, but it is what it is. Can omit shadewalker/goad obv.

Quick question that might be stupid regarding Duality. I just got it, and it was suggested to me to just use it with AE only, but it seems like that might be a total DPS loss when compared to just using it on CD with a combo finisher (DE, AC, AE) over an extended fight. I'm not sure, since using it with AC is a 80 potency loss and using it with DE would be a 120 potency loss, which is pretty huge. But that said, if it comes up at for example, a point where I have to refresh DE, Huton, and Shadow Fang (admittedly with smart comboing this situation doesn't come up often, but sometimes it will if a fight has a lot of target swapping/moving or breaks), it'd be sitting there ready for like 15 seconds. I guess it's just a judgement call depending on how long I'd be sitting on it? Or is it always going to be better to save it for AE, provided there's nothing weird going on?

Originally Posted by Tokitoki

The other thread was locked since the update.

I've recently returned and wanted to try out ROG/NIN, especially since my only job at 50 was SCH and I am not confident in my healing abilities after returning. I had a few questions that I tried to scan the last thread for, but didn't see the answers in there that I could find.

1. I've noticed a lot of people using Fuma rather than Raiton in streams and such. Is this because of a magical resistance that 50+ mobs have? Raiton has 120 more potency, and unless you have terrible latency issues, I would think that the extra .5 sec to cast Raiton for 120 more potency would win out. I'm guessing there is something I'm missing.

2. I didn't find a straight rotation idea from the last thread unless I'm crazy or it was on page 2 or 3 (because I read all the others). From what I can gather it'd be:
Pre-load Huton > Dancing Edge Combo > Shadow Fang Combo > Mutilate > Suiton/TA (unless it's up sooner) > ????.
After Suiton it seems like basically all of your buffs are going to start wearing. I would guess Armor Crush would be a good idea if you have time to complete it before Huton wears off. I would guess squeeze in an Aeolian Edge combo and then follow up with DE > SF > Mutilate, etc?

3. Is there any real way for me to tell when I should be using Goad? I usually just throw it out at about 25% of Boss HP depending on how quickly it's moving and then again when it's up again. I think they said something about adding TP bars in a future update?

4. Is Doton pretty much just for fodder? Don't see anyone using it really other than a trash pull here and there.

1.) Raiton should always be your dedault for single target attack if Trick Attack is down.

2.) I use more of a priority system than a rotation. I keep Dancing Edge/Mutilate/Shadow Fang/Huton up as much as I can. If one one of them is about to wear off, it comes first, if I have a moment where all 4 are at a good duration I'll try to squeeze in an Aeolian Edge. But all 4 of those come before AE. (Unless the mob is about to die.)

3.) I usually only use when someone asks for it, no way to know otherwise.

4.) I usually only pop it at the start of a pull with 4+ mobs, otherwise I don't bother.

This is just my general perspective, but I've only had NIN at 60 for about a week. So I still have a a lot to learn. A couple of things that are annoying me is I can't get into the habit of using Shukuchi. ><; It's an amazing ability. But in the heat of the moment I always instictively run to were I need to go instead of using it. I really need to force myself to use it more often.

Originally Posted by Zzsark

There's a plugin for ACT that will show you part member TP. Not sure if it's still working or not haven't tried to use it in weeks.

Still works, there was an update a week or 2 ago I think so might want to hit the check button on the plugin settings tab.