I'm not enjoying 3.0's BLM - anyone else?

**Spider-Dan** · 2015-07-22 11:55

This part:

If UI3 and/or Enochian falls off during Blizzard IV, Enochian is still refreshed at the reduced duration.

If it falls off, it should stay off, but you should get to finish your cast.

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-22 12:21

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

If it falls off, it should stay off, but you should get to finish your cast.

Blizzard IV refreshes Enochian as an additional effect. So Enochian does fall off, you finish your cast, Blizzard IV refreshes Enochian, and since Enochian was not overwritten with the actual ability, the duration is reduced. Anything else that falls off will stay off.

**Spider-Dan** · 2015-07-22 12:45

As I said in my original reply, F1 refreshes AF3, but not if you don't finish it before AF3 ends (mostly, there is a slight bit of lag). If F1 lands after AF3 is over, you only get AF1.

So I don't think you should get a renewed Enochian if your B4 is too late; you should just get to finish the cast. Otherwise, you are effectively adding untimed duration to Enochian.

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-22 13:27

That would be a pointless change; I have zero interest in casting Blizzard IV if it will not refresh Enochian.

I see no difference mechanically in the two situations:

Case A: Fire is cast, during the cast AF3 falls off, Fire completes (without the damage boost from AF3, because it fell off) and applies its additional effects, which give AF1 and a chance of Firestarter.
Case B: Blizzard IV is cast, during the cast Enochian falls off, [hypothetically] Blizzard IV completes (without the damage boost from Enochian, because it fell off) and applies its additional effect, which gives Enochian.

I am not getting any extra time in Enochian itself, what I'm getting is a little grace period after Enochian expires to reapply it with Blizzard IV or finish Fire IV. And I want this grace period to help mitigate the fact that even the slightest interruption (or desire to actually use a Thundercloud proc instead of watching helplessly as it expires) throws a huge wrench into my rotation. As haroldsaxon said earlier, I'm being punished in multiple ways for the mere fact that an AoE circle appeared over me.

**Lucavi** · 2015-07-22 13:49

Case B sounds like you're getting additional time in Enochain. Case A has a CHANCE to proc firestarter, which would put you back at full power with a slight dip in DPS along the way. Being able to reapply it in a situation in which you currently cannot constitutes gaining additional time in Enochain.

I agree 100% that the current Bliz IV should complete if enochain expires. I do not agree that that Bliz should reapply enochain, because it fell off; you "failed" the mechanic required to keep it on. That, by itself, isn't a punishing thing. What is punishing, however, is being 6/8th of the way done with the spell and losing everything because enochain fell off. Its like having your car engine cut off in the middle of the goddamn highway and coming to a COMPLETE stop instantly vs. decelerating slowly (y'know, the way physics work) until you can get the engine running again to get back on the gas.

One of the above is needlessly punishing and breaks the seam of flow of the job completely, like wrenching a bite of food out of someone's mouth right before the mouth closes, then tossing the fork across the room. The other is an inconvenience that came from a lack of foresight, awareness or just a lack of goddamn luck with having to move all the goddamned time.

That's my opinion, anyway. I respect yours.

**Spider-Dan** · 2015-07-22 15:17

I look at it this way... there are three separate mechanics at play:

1) A nuke that lands while Enochian is active gets a 5% damage buff.
2) Having Enochian active allows you to (begin to) cast F4/B4.
3) A B4 that lands while Enochian is active refreshes Enochian.

In my opinion, there should not be a Enochian allow/disallow check both at the start and the end of an F4/B4 cast; a simple check at the start is sufficient. As for the other two conditions, if you missed (failed accuracy check) that nuke then you wouldn't gain anything either. It's not the act of starting a B4 cast that refreshes Enochian, it's the act of successfully landing it before the Enochian timer expires.

**Lucavi** · 2015-07-22 19:19

I understand all that, and I listed "failing" moreso as "didn't get it off in time" moreso than "didn't gear properly for acc" failure. Regardless, I agree: once you start, it shouldn't stop. I don't think it needs to refresh the timer if you didn't get it off in time, though.

I look at it another way. EXP chains. You kill 5 mobs, you're on exp chain #4. You work on mob 6, and have 10 seconds left. You get mob 6 to 10% health when the time runs out. You don't cease fighting the mob and it regens to full and runs away and you have to start all over. That's currently what Blm is. Its jarring and it sucks. You just start the actual exp chain over once you kill the mob + one more mob. That's what blm should be: you finish your cast, but you have to start enochian over afterwards. You lose DPS (only on that single spell if the recast timer was up anyway), but not the metric fuck ton of DPS you currently lose by having the current spell negated plus having to start over.

I don't like what he proposes: that you run out of time on your exp chain #4, kill the 6th mob, and still get exp chain #5 just because you started working on the 6th mob before the timer ran out. There's a middle-ground between what currently exists and what he would like to see. I want that middle-ground.

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-22 23:25

So why would I cast Blizzard IV at all in that situation then? The only purpose in life for Blizzard IV is to refresh Enochian. There are zero other reasons to cast that spell over something else. In your arrangement, my proposed change is completely useless, because if I know I'm not getting Enochian back if I cast Blizzard IV, I would rather cast Fire III or Thunder(cloud) instead to salvage what dps I can and get into a 2.x rotation faster.

I'm not concerned with losing the minor damage from B4 itself getting aborted; I'm concerned with the up to half a minute of shit dps that follows, all because I had to move a few steps to deal with a mechanic in the last 10 seconds of Enochian through no fault of my own.

And actually, it occurs to me now that this would be made much simpler if rather than mucking about with Enochian refreshing after it's fallen off, Blizzard IV were just made a 1 second cast with a very low potency. No one casts it for its damage anyway, so why not have it do token damage and make it more useful for its actual purpose?

**lilbubbles** · 2015-07-22 23:31

If you cast fire 1 as UF3 wears off you still gain the effect of UF1.

I see no reason B4 should be different imho.

It gives eno-chan, and nothing besides movement should cancel its cast.

**layoneil** · 2015-07-23 10:09

Originally Posted by lilbubbles

If you cast fire 1 as UF3 wears off you still gain the effect of UF1.

I see no reason B4 should be different imho.

It gives eno-chan, and nothing besides movement should cancel its cast.

Fire 1 gives 1 stack of AF that's an attribute of Fire 1, you don't get to keep AF3. B4 doesn't give Enochian when none exists.

it's not different.

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-23 10:59

Originally Posted by layoneil

B4 doesn't give Enochian when none exists.

Actually, it would, and probably for the full 30 seconds, if you could somehow cast B4 without Enochian already up. It literally says "Additional Effect: Enochian"; there are no restrictions on it. Since Enochian would not be overwriting itself in that situation, it would presumably last 30 seconds.

The game relies on the "only available when under the effects of Umbral Ice and Enochian" restriction to prevent you from casting B4 in the first place, to keep this from happening.

**Lucavi** · 2015-07-23 12:20

Originally Posted by lilbubbles

If you cast fire 1 as UF3 wears off you still gain the effect of UF1.

I see no reason B4 should be different imho.

It gives eno-chan, and nothing besides movement should cancel its cast.

That's bollocks. There aren't 3 versions of Enochian, like with UF: every time its refreshed, the duration is lowered by 5 seconds. It works entirely differently from UF. There's absolutely no reason someone being late on their first B4 through negligence should magically receive a free 25 seconds of enochian. That's completely incomparable to being dropped back to UF1 on a fire 1 because without a lucky firestarter proc to salvage it, you're looking at a massive DPS loss for your blunder through reduced damage and reduced casting speed, especially if you were trying to get back into UI through blizzard 3.

People are trying to remove all penalty from fucking up your B4 timing by using the "well why would I ever use it then?" argument, which isn't really an argument at all.

If you want to try to pull some apples and oranges comparison, then change enochian to grant a pitiable length of the buff if you're late on your cast. Two seconds, or something. Getting 25, 20, or even 15 off of flubbed timing is no bueno, and if you were only getting 10 or 5 seconds of the buff off of your B4, then your cooldown on the actual ability is already up and you should just press the button.

All I want is at least my cast to go off so I can salvage the damage from that actual spell cast. At that point I'd simply F3 and go back into regular firespam until my actual ability was back up. Getting a free refresh on it by being late is silly. That sounds like a % chance to come out of a passive ability, if anything.

Game needs more passives anyway, but the Pld forums have been arguing that for awhile now.

**Twilight Sky** · 2015-07-23 12:23

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

As I said in my original reply, F1 refreshes AF3, but not if you don't finish it before AF3 ends (mostly, there is a slight bit of lag). If F1 lands after AF3 is over, you only get AF1.

So I don't think you should get a renewed Enochian if your B4 is too late; you should just get to finish the cast. Otherwise, you are effectively adding untimed duration to Enochian.

If you time it right, you can get AF3 back the moment AF3 falls. Swiftcast is great for this.

**Lucavi** · 2015-07-23 12:34

^ That same timing works for B4 as well. That's just that lovely JP latency.

**Sevilla** · 2015-07-23 13:41

I have a question, when AF3 will fall off during the cast of F1, will the MP cost be as if it were under AF3? or will it count as if you are casting F1 without AF.

**Shalafi** · 2015-07-23 14:18

Originally Posted by Lucavi

^ That same timing works for B4 as well. That's just that lovely JP latency.

That's server ticks, not necessarily latency

Originally Posted by Sevilla

I have a question, when AF3 will fall off during the cast of F1, will the MP cost be as if it were under AF3? or will it count as if you are casting F1 without AF.

Casting F1 without AF

**Lucavi** · 2015-07-23 14:30

Originally Posted by Shalafi

That's server ticks, not necessarily latency

I see!

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-23 14:31

Originally Posted by Lucavi

People are trying to remove all penalty from fucking up your B4 timing by using the "well why would I ever use it then?" argument, which isn't really an argument at all.

People are trying to reduce the penalty from getting fucked on your B4 timing because RNG decided to AoE/Quarantine/etc. you instead of someone else at the critical point of your rotation.

If I simply miss casting B4 in time, then shame on me; I'll eat my sub-par dps for awhile. But if I'm forced to abort, that's different. MNKs have bitched for years that some fights force GL to fall off too much; SE finally at least gave them something to use (Tornado Kick) in that situation...and then in true SE fashion, gave BLMs Enochian with the same damn problem they "fixed" for MNKs.

So yes, I want them to either A) make it easier to save Enochian in the face of an ill-timed mechanic, or B) give us some sort of Tornado Kick-like ability to use if we know we're going to lose Enochian. I don't see why you consider this so unreasonable. BLM isn't broken right now, but it sure is far more annoying to play than it was before. I just want to reduce some of the annoyance.

Originally Posted by Sevilla

I have a question, when AF3 will fall off during the cast of F1, will the MP cost be as if it were under AF3? or will it count as if you are casting F1 without AF.

If it falls off soon enough that you get AF1 instead of AF3 at the end of it, the MP cost will be as if you had cast it in the neutral stance. If AF3 fell off but went right back on, the MP cost will be as it is in AF3.

**Kaslo** · 2015-07-23 14:33

So um... why do we essentially have 2 3.0 BLM threads?

**Serenseven** · 2015-07-23 14:40

The other one is the serious theorycrafting thread; this is the "bitch about Enochian" thread.

Thread: I'm not enjoying 3.0's BLM - anyone else?

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