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  1. #61
    Nidhogg
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    In all honesty, DRK would have made a better DPS and SAM would have made a better tank.

    SAM usually has "Blade Grasp", 'Third Eye", "Meatbone Slash", "Seigen", "Sword Slap" which are very tanky abilities. Meatbone Slash would almost be like a reverse Spirits Within. Besides, thematically, DRK is about honing your dark energies and sacrificing yourself for power. Samurai is about facing your opponent head-on, fair-and-square, and honorably. If SAM is a DPS in FFXIV, how can they justify, lore-wise, using rear and flank positional attacks? Attacking an opponent from the side/rear makes sense for DRGs because they're feinty and Ninjas attack from the shadows. But Samurais are supposed to only use honorable tactics, so it would make sense if they were tanks since tanks never have a positional attack-they attack from the front only.

  2. #62
    Absolute Messenger of Promathia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    In all honesty, DRK would have made a better DPS and SAM would have made a better tank.

    SAM usually has "Blade Grasp", 'Third Eye", "Meatbone Slash", "Seigen", "Sword Slap" which are very tanky abilities. Meatbone Slash would almost be like a reverse Spirits Within. Besides, thematically, DRK is about honing your dark energies and sacrificing yourself for power. Samurai is about facing your opponent head-on, fair-and-square, and honorably. If SAM is a DPS in FFXIV, how can they justify, lore-wise, using rear and flank positional attacks? Attacking an opponent from the side/rear makes sense for DRGs because they're feinty and Ninjas attack from the shadows. But Samurais are supposed to only use honorable tactics, so it would make sense if they were tanks since tanks never have a positional attack-they attack from the front only.
    Simple, they get abilities that only work from the front, like Overwhelm

  3. #63
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alisha View Post
    I get that they may be afraid of scaring away casuals with skill trees but you can just add something similar to the merit system in FF11 and gate it behind something casuals cant do so they don't have to worry about it.
    Skill Trees in WoW and Meritpo system in FFXI only ever gives a false sense of character customization. Outside of people wanting to be special snowflakes with their characters, everyone will almost always go for the set up that gives optimized DPS/Tanking/Healing, no matter what. By that extension, this is why SE is content with not doing many changes and instead going down the homogenization route, simply because they would rather have a more balanced game across the board (even if it means one or two jobs falling behind slightly), rather than going through huge cycles of buffing and nerfing classes and pissing people off.

    Just about any combination of required jobs can clear all content in this game. They aren't all optimal, but they are viable.

  4. #64
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    Simple, they get abilities that only work from the front, like Overwhelm
    Would put SAM at a huge disadvantage for cleaves and such, so I doubt it. But at the same time, they can't NOT have directional GCDs because that would give them an unfair advantage (which is why they invariably ended up giving them to ROG/NIN).

  5. #65
    Nidhogg
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    I get that they may be afraid of scaring away casuals with skill trees but you can just add something similar to the merit system in FF11 and gate it behind something casuals cant do so they don't have to worry about it.
    It's impossible to balance skill trees because of math. There will always be certain skills which will be much better or at least used in more situations than the other, thus ruining the point. Again, they work fine offline with naive gamers, but smart gamers will always want to optimize. Plus people will theorycraft the hell out of the skilltrees, thus making people think only the best options are workable. Then anyone who deviates from the 'best' skill tree option will be ridiculed and not be asked to join. Then SE will need to implement some item to revert your changes like the Reagent Pepper or the stones for attribute points, and since there's no limit or restrictions on THOSE, people will just redistribute their skill tree for every fight/dungeon--thus ruining the point of skill trees in the first place.

  6. #66
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Skill Trees in WoW and Meritpo system in FFXI only ever gives a false sense of character customization. Outside of people wanting to be special snowflakes with their characters, everyone will almost always go for the set up that gives optimized DPS/Tanking/Healing, no matter what.
    Just a reminder that Takedown put 5/5 merits into Warcry.

  7. #67

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelweiss View Post
    Just a reminder that Takedown put 5/5 merits into Warcry.
    It was a bannable offense to mention that though, and I got banned for it lol. Was worth it.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    Well, with the latter, you'd have more people in DF for a greater amount of time before it eventually dries up. DF still has it's fair share of people leveling up alt jobs so it stands to reason those same people will be tome farming too. I don't adhere to the belief that tomes per job will lead to people quitting faster because let's be real, it's going to be a crazy grind if someone wanted to tome farm all their lvl 60s to cap each week and at least it'd keep people logged in throughout the week cause they'll have an avenue for character progression instead of the hard stop we got now.
    Maybe have it similar to leve's where you get allowances each week, but make the cap per class fairly high?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    Being 9 years old, and spending an entire Saturday trying to keep all my unique characters alive while trying to steal Masamune and all of the Genji equipment off of Elmdor, with a 2% success rate. Then, growing up and discovering gamefaqs and formula/algorithms FAQs that explained I could steal with a 70-90% success rate if I just reduce his Brave to 0 with Beowulf's 'Chicken' spell. -______________-
    As I recall, I relied on Speed Break to just overwhelm them with turns.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Skill Trees in WoW and Meritpo system in FFXI only ever gives a false sense of character customization. Outside of people wanting to be special snowflakes with their characters, everyone will almost always go for the set up that gives optimized DPS/Tanking/Healing, no matter what. By that extension, this is why SE is content with not doing many changes and instead going down the homogenization route, simply because they would rather have a more balanced game across the board (even if it means one or two jobs falling behind slightly), rather than going through huge cycles of buffing and nerfing classes and pissing people off.

    Just about any combination of required jobs can clear all content in this game. They aren't all optimal, but they are viable.

    While true there were many times where the balance of merits changed or could be altered for various content. It was a layer of depth just more shallow then most people remember it.

    SAM was a big merit changing job depending on your STP needs or later the zanshin bonuses. It was also something to work towards after reaching the lvl cap.

    I haven't played FFXI seriously in years but now they have Job Points for each job, benefiting people that love a single job. They are fixed bonuses going up to 2000 points I think.

    And they also have Vorseals? which give bonuses for completing content. Like leveling a Chocobo gives you a bonus.

    All of this just adds a little more depth to the job and game.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    It's impossible to balance skill trees because of math. There will always be certain skills which will be much better or at least used in more situations than the other, thus ruining the point.
    It's difficult to accept this as a legitimate reason why we can't have variety when no one wants a PLD or an AST now.

    If we really are supposed to view job change menu as a substitute for talent trees, then we already have sub-optimal trees: the shield tank and the card healer. And we've had plenty of sub-optimal trees in the past, too.

    So why are we getting all the downsides of rigid rails with none of the upsides?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    It's difficult to accept this as a legitimate reason why we can't have variety when no one wants a PLD or an AST now.

    If we really are supposed to view job change menu as a substitute for talent trees, then we already have sub-optimal trees: the shield tank and the card healer. And we've had plenty of sub-optimal trees in the past, too.

    So why are we getting all the downsides of rigid rails with none of the upsides?
    Plus, its more content than what is in the game now actually theorycrafting and working out which are situationally good.

  13. #73
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    Edit: Double post

  14. #74
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    In addition to that, there's the fact that "balance" isn't some angry dwarven god who smites bitches on a whim. The thing about math is that SE is capable of math, too. If they wanted each job to perform equally, they could math it out and just fucking do that.

  15. #75
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    This was highlighted from GhostCrawler, a former WoW Dev Lead now working for Riot Games... it striked a nerve in me lol:

    Hey GC, what are your thoughts as a Dev on SWTORs level-sync system? Frankly, I LOVE it. I can play any "zone" at any level!
    The risk of level sync is if players feel no sense of accomplishment. "Oh, I am level 15 now but so are those rats." (OccupyGStreet)
    Not saying SWTOR has this problem and it's not an Achilles' heel problem, just a consideration. (OccupyGStreet)
    I feel like that.... hitting level 60 (was 50) and then being forced to go do low level shit for level capped stuff lol (atma grind, dungeon grind, etc)

  16. #76
    Sandworm Swallows
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    Hey don't lump AST in with PLD D: nothing wrong with AST, bitches just don't know h2p

    Quote Originally Posted by Alisha View Post
    you can just add something similar to the merit system in FF11 and gate it behind something casuals cant do so they don't have to worry about it.
    Ahaha SE will never make character customization that casuals can't do, can you imagine how mad they'd all be?
    Though it's true that merits fell into the same trap of people only speccing what gave the most objective gains to the job, which is no different than the problems with a skill tree. But you can call merits "endgame content" in a sense that it's something to do for people who have already done everything, which is something XIV sorely needs...even though it'd just be another grind (unless they made getting merits fun somehow but fat chance of that).

    For what it's worth, at least there were sometimes options in XI's merit point system. There were occasionally choices to make between one buff/spell or another, and it did take the community a fairly long while to figure out what was best overall. So adding something like this to XIV would have the added benefit of giving the players something to talk about... or it would, if XIV's battle and stats system didn't have the depth of a puddle. I'm afraid it would be fairly obvious from the start what would be best.

  17. #77
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    XI also had gear that helped spec you for your job. While yes, there was a "right" way, there were a lot of situational instances and paths you could take to complete the objective. Especially true depending on who you ran content with and your party composition.

  18. #78
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    I don't even know that merits were as rigid as is being implied.

    Sure, you have the occasional Overwhelm that's mandatory 5/5, but lots of jobs had legitimate choices for merits; for example, on RDM, Dia3/Slow2/Paralyze2/Phalanx2 were all legitimate choices.

  19. #79
    Absolute Messenger of Promathia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    Would put SAM at a huge disadvantage for cleaves and such, so I doubt it. But at the same time, they can't NOT have directional GCDs because that would give them an unfair advantage (which is why they invariably ended up giving them to ROG/NIN).
    I must have forgot the sarcasm tags

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    It's impossible to balance skill trees because of math. There will always be certain skills which will be much better or at least used in more situations than the other, thus ruining the point. Again, they work fine offline with naive gamers, but smart gamers will always want to optimize. Plus people will theorycraft the hell out of the skilltrees, thus making people think only the best options are workable. Then anyone who deviates from the 'best' skill tree option will be ridiculed and not be asked to join. Then SE will need to implement some item to revert your changes like the Reagent Pepper or the stones for attribute points, and since there's no limit or restrictions on THOSE, people will just redistribute their skill tree for every fight/dungeon--thus ruining the point of skill trees in the first place.
    I know some were T2 merits were rigid, like Feint and such but rarely if ever did I see specific merits being requored. Some exception being formless, feint, and possibly tomahawk. But those werent even always needed.

    I don't think it would be as catastrophic as you picture it. We have gimps here in the now getting through just fine, adding another layer of skills isn't going to suddenly turn the game into a casual firing squad, they already rule this game by numbers alone.

    But even beyond that point, there were merits in XI that were legitimate choices. Especially things like combat skills and such. I'm not saying there weren't stupid merit choices, but there were some acceptable variances, there's always an optimal, but outside of a very tiny portion of the player base, nobody cares. Especially on XIV as we can all clearly see.

    Plus, they can math too, so SE could work around horrible imbalance like say, flee merits

    Quote Originally Posted by Alisha View Post
    i'd rather have the illusion of choice than no choice at all and everything being boring and vanilla.
    This too. Something about just... meriting and placing job points was in itself satisfying, getting 5/5 on a merit just felt like a wall triumphed (In the old days I mean). Same can be said for Job Points, getting those special 3 stars by your character is a fulfilling investment.

    To look at it in a non-FFXI way, Think of it like Diablo 3, I mean, once you hit max level, grinding was just.. grinding... It felt to a lot of people empty trash grinding for loot... So what did they do? Paragon levels! Now with those paragon levels, every enemy puts you a step closer to another small, but useful, upgrade, even if gear drops are unkind to you, you're still rewarded for your time with the experience towards another Paragon Point. Just having a "Post level cap" power increasing system can add a certain joy or feeling of accomplishment in replaying content. It makes each replay of something, even if you don't get the drop you want, feeling like you were rewarded anyway, or that it wasn't a complete loss. Something so simple, offering in reality such small rewards, reinvigorated the grinding process for a lot of players, and I'd dare to say no consider it a negative to the game at all.

    I mean, if your EX/Token grinding dungeons on a maxed character worked toward Merits/Job/Whatever points that could slowly but surely improve your character over time, wouldn't that be at least a little bright light at the end of the tunnel? Trash mobs wouldn't feel so much like trash if they were giving Exp that lead to character improvement. Not getting your drop in (Coil/Etc) wouldn't be as crushing if you knew the mob itself at least put you x amount closer to another Job Point or Merit Point.

    Its not going to solve world hunger or some shit but I think you'd have to be dense to not see how it would at the very least be an improvement to the game as a whole to have something like that included. They just need to not "XIV" it and make the effort to reward ratio worth investing in.

  20. #80
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    i'd rather have the illusion of choice than no choice at all and everything being boring and vanilla.

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