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  1. #101
    Nidhogg
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    Spoiler: show
    A lot of fuss was made about how Y'shtola was different now and how she had to have new clothes. I admit that could be for plot reasons which are nothing to do with jobs/classes/specialisations. Then a similar thing happened with Thancred where it's pointed out that he's lost the ability to cast his magic but his melee skills have gone nuts. Krile seems to be a 'Seer' which could be a new class or a specialisation of WHM. I'm really not sure on that one. Especially as Y'shtola seemed to be a conjurer before and Krile uses an orb
    Personally, I think it's just that the Scions went from classes, to now having jobs, Thancred was a Rogue and may have had some spells, but now he is very Ninja-y, especially after training with Yugiri. It makes sense that the Scions are supposed to represent the trope of a well balanced party like other NPC parties from past FF games. The Scions at the end of 2.X were: PUG, CNJ, THM, ACN, ROG. Minfilia has not fought yet, so it's unknown what class she might be. The WoL, storyline-wise is probably a MRD/WAR since the archetype stand-in that represents our character in trailers is Derplander, who's a WAR. That being said, the Scions are starting to specialize from those PUG CNJ THM ACN ROG paradigms to be cooler/more focused. Since there's already 2 casters, no reason why the ROG should maintain their magic, and every balanced party needs a thiefy dextrous assassin character. The other Scions too are stronger and less generic after the events that happened post-disappearance. It's a classic anime trope. When a character disappears mysteriously for a long time, they reappear in a very' cliff-hanger', 'deus ex machina', 'save the day at the last second' sort of way, often times with new powers or abilities. This is probably a plot mechanic meant to make the Scions, of which the WoL is part of, a match for the Warriors of Darkness, which are all veteran adventurers. As we've gotten stronger in our 'absence' from 2.x to 3.0, so too must our allies. Just like Goku gets stronger in DBZ, they needed to upgrade Krillin and Piccolo too to make them not as lame, so they can handle fodder/cronies.

  2. #102
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    I can't even begin to imagine how I will handle my hotbars if they added another 5 buttons. I sometimes wished they start merging some of it already, i.e.

    Keeping up Hotshot, Straight Shot and Heavy Thrust is not very fun or satisfying. Just give us the trait permanently. At least NIN gets their new move which refreshes their thing... MNKs refresh Grease Lightning on the end of all their combos...
    For 1,2,3 combos 2 and 3 are more or less worthless on their own though they do give some enmity for tanks, just not as much unless comboed. Just condense that into 1 button that changes to 2, and 3, if the skill connects (and resets to 1 if miss) (though in retrospect jobs that have 2 different "3" finishers need a new solution).

  3. #103
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    PLD should be the class that excels at lower ilvls. The incoming damage would be too overwhelming for WAR to handle at that point giving way to more PLD/DRK compositions. As you gear up PLD starts(or should start) falling behind, eventually giving way to DRK/WAR or WAR/WAR.
    You just described 2.0.

  4. #104
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    You just described 2.0.
    Was that bad? I personally didn't mind 2.0. It felt correct as far as progression goes. I understood that pld would eventually phase out as gearing up occurred.

  5. #105
    Nidhogg
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    Yeah the hotbar thing will be a huge problem moving forward, since this is a hotbar based game and not a menu based game like FFXI, new abilities/spells will eventually complicate and detract from rotations, making gameplay more difficult and button-mashy. In 1.0 this was fine, there were TONS of abilities, but the battle system was slower, and recasts were longer, so abilities were used tactically. Now that we have a combo system and short cooldown abilities, adding in 5 new skills makes it complicated. I imagine they would upgrade combo skills with higher potency/bonuses in 4.0, change the name and animation but keep the same core rotations. The problem is what happens when you sync down? Also, if they simply only add traits in 4.0, it won't feel fun because traits can be added to all jobs in like 3 minutes. There's no animation changes or cool effects with traits...it's all just adjustments to attributes or durations which would seem super cheap and boring to develop as opposed to new skills that change or evolve a job's gameplay. We will have to see what they do in 4.0. A menu based game could always use more skills/spells, but not hotbar games where a large amount of the playerbased uses a controller. Controllers already cap out at 32 abilities using both shoulder button combinations, which is roughly the number of class/job/cross class actions a player has to wield.

    OT PLD puts out nearly as much damage as WAR and DRK do, you all really underestimate the power of Sword Oath if you think otherwise. The poor DPS of PLD comes from their DPS in Shield Oath, where their only damaging ability is Spirits Within and Fight or Flight. If they buffed some abilities to increase this damage during Shield Oath, PLD would be fine. Maybe some kind of automatic damage reflection of a % of damage blocked during shield block would be an obvious and thematic solution? Something similar to FFXI's PLD's Reprisal spell. Again, in Sword Oath as an OT, PLD is slightly behind WAR or PLD, but not by enough to make any impact, maybe PLD 1100 vs DRK 1200 and WAR 1300, whereas WAR and DRK are like 700-800 when MTing and PLD is like 300.

  6. #106
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    OT PLD puts out nearly as much damage as WAR and DRK do, you all really underestimate the power of Sword Oath if you think otherwise. The poor DPS of PLD comes from their DPS in Shield Oath, where their only damaging ability is Spirits Within and Fight or Flight. If they buffed some abilities to increase this damage during Shield Oath, PLD would be fine. Maybe some kind of automatic damage reflection of a % of damage blocked during shield block would be an obvious and thematic solution? Something similar to FFXI's PLD's Reprisal spell. Again, in Sword Oath as an OT, PLD is slightly behind WAR or PLD, but not by enough to make any impact, maybe PLD 1100 vs DRK 1200 and WAR 1300, whereas WAR and DRK are like 700-800 when MTing and PLD is like 300.
    To clarify a bit, I'm not advocating just adding potency buff or abilities just to make up the personal dps loss. I don't think this would fix the job long term and I don't necessarily want pld to just deal more damage while in tank stance. I would like pld to fall closer to the concept of a support tank. You would want to take a pld because they would provide boons or auras to improve overall raid damage at the expense of their own damage. I feel it would thematically fill the PLD/GLD job as a whole and stay closer to their lore instead of holy knight. You stay within the same range of damage to a setup that utilizes higher tank dps, the numbers just skew in a different direction.

  7. #107

    I already have to go digging for where ruin 1 is when level synch'd as scholar.

    WOULD BE COOL IF MACROS COULD QUEUE COMMANDS OMG, then I could use in game macros to clear clutter and have kawaii desu chat spam without sacrificing dps.. That would help.

  8. #108
    Relic Horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbubbles View Post
    I already have to go digging for where ruin 1 is when level synch'd as scholar.

    WOULD BE COOL IF MACROS COULD QUEUE COMMANDS OMG, then I could use in game macros to clear clutter and have kawaii desu chat spam without sacrificing dps.. That would help.
    would be even cooler if you just didn't lose skills while sync'd down

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    would be even cooler if you just didn't lose skills while sync'd down
    Yeah, they take the time to adjust PvE/PvP shared changes so they could have easily balanced out skills for lower levels since for example Eos will solo heal most if not every dungeon without needing all lines of skills so they can't really say much about "being overpowered/people won't learn blah blah"

  10. #110
    The Shitlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    In a complete vacuum PLD is fine.
    have you played it? It is by far the least fun job in the game, and that's including WM Bard. I realize we're talking about performance, here, but as this is a game, fun is pretty important, too. The only thing fun about pld can be experienced as any other tank: eating tankbusters and living.

  11. #111
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Was that bad? I personally didn't mind 2.0. It felt correct as far as progression goes.
    When 2.0 came out and ~i70 PLDs (with ~i70 healers) were able to tank Caduceus through stacks while ~i70 WARs got flattened, this was viewed as an unacceptable state, requiring WAR to receive a bunch of defensive cooldowns in response.

    In other words, we have already had a version of this game where PLD's defensive prowess gave them a significant advantage at lower iLVLs. And now we have the opposite, where WAR's offensive prowess gives them a significant advantage at lower iLVLs.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    PLD is flawed because minimum ilvl or not its extra mitigation is not useful (or in the case of A4S, nonexistent) and it does less damage than other tanks.

    And HG being better than Holmgang or LD is tenuous at best, as an individual skill yea it nets you more breathing room, but the recast limits it to once per fight, which kills it in comparison.
    Piggybacking off what you said in response to the wall of lols: PLD also suffers immensely from poor design decisions in terms of how costly Oaths are on several levels, and situational use only abilities (as compared to WAR, which has essentially only one flaw and that's a lack of a gap closer; all of it's abilities have two functions or more). DRK also suffers from Oath-ish penalties, but it's in a better place than the deep dark pit that PLD is in. Also yeah, PLD's slight mitigation advantage is going to be irrelevant as the content will be designed in such a way as to ensure DRK and WAR are viable to tank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    That's a flaw with content design, not class design imo, because PLD is overpowered as hell in Thordan EX.
    PLD is hardly OP in anything. If PLD can tank it, WAR and DRK can assuredly do it better and more efficiently. In fact for Thordan i'd probably prefer dual WARs just to ensure Path and Eye are up full time, as well as having Holmgang to fall back on to push through Phase 2 and to eat a later Heel/Rage (if either tank is selected) without worrying about mitigation.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    It makes sense that the Scions are supposed to represent the trope of a well balanced party like other NPC parties from past FF games.
    So what's Minfilia? New class: Boob mage?

  14. #114
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    She's the only scion who doesn't wield a weapon. She's more of a figurehead and diplomat than a fighter. Maybe she'll reappear with a bow or gun later since there's no ranged dps Scion.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    In other words, we have already had a version of this game where PLD's defensive prowess gave them a significant advantage at lower iLVLs. And now we have the opposite, where WAR's offensive prowess gives them a significant advantage at lower iLVLs.
    I'll bring to table a different point. PLD was already at a disadvantage and poorly designed, war just happen to be worse. PLD was just the least worst tank at the time. They didn't bring superior mitigation to the table they just had better mitigation than the alternate. If a third tank was available at the time it likely would have suffered the same fate of poor design and required revision OR would have been the 3.0 WAR in comparison to the other tanks. The WAR buffs were necessary in 2.0 to bring them into some level of use but PLD should have been received the same redesign to solidify their role as THE defensive/support tank instead of the "easy to play" tank.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    I'll bring to table a different point. PLD was already at a disadvantage and poorly designed, war just happen to be worse.
    I agree. PLD, essentially, is still stuck in the ARR era as far as it's design goes and hasn't really developed in any substantial way beyond a being a poor synergy mess with some self-defeating features. Heavensward has pretty much laid bare those fundamental flaws (that were present from the start). PLD still suffers from the worst enmity modifiers and it's enmity-generating combo being the worst option for DPS. Attempting to contribute any utility to your group outside of Cover (doesn't actually take your mitigation into account either!) and Divine Veil (too long a cooldown for what it does) results in a severe penalty as akin to Oaths (loss of combos/DPS/GCD). There's also the aforementioned situational abilities that are exclusively situational; WAR can opt to burn Vengeance and Raw Intuition to help fuel Fell Cleaves, Holmgang has three uses (ignoring knockback, surviving a buster, and (lol) pulling in a stray mob into your pile of shit to AoE down). WAR even gets better use out of a cross-class like Awarness than PLD does. It's AoEs are sad and only one of them does any damage (the other's Blind effect is outright resisted by pretty much anything that matters). As a final fuck you, it still suffers from TP problems.

    WAR has evolved considerably off a pretty good base design following the 2.1 overhaul and it was always as viable as PLD was subsequently after that update. It's probably a candidate alongside SCH for the best designed job in the game for that matter, now.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaneTheBrawler View Post
    have you played it? It is by far the least fun job in the game, and that's including WM Bard. I realize we're talking about performance, here, but as this is a game, fun is pretty important, too. The only thing fun about pld can be experienced as any other tank: eating tankbusters and living.
    I don't disagree in the slightest. PLD is the least interesting job in the game. I was writing on a performance level however. If the only tank was PLD(in a vacuum) then pld would be completely fine. Since there are other tank jobs they need to be compared to their peers. PLD is not fine in this sense.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    would be even cooler if you just didn't lose skills while sync'd down
    this pretty much, would make synched or low level dungeons that much bearable and fun ¬.¬, getting sastash in low level roulette makes me insta quit because i have like.... 3 spells/abilitys on my hotbar as a healer caster wtf ever

  19. #119
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    the problem with saying X is ok because it only happens at minimum ilvls is that what happens at minimum ilvls has a trickle down effect. sometimes to achieve balance you have to change the meta. for example back in 2.0 a lot of groups were doing stuff like titan hard mode with only 1 tank so SE changed the meta by forcing tank swaps on all the ex primals. I think they might try to do something similar with healers given we've already seen 2 fausts. I think SE feels Astro's problem is raid design not the job itself so its first attempt will be to change the healing meta. so I wont be surprised if we see the return of the healing debuff from levi ex. albeit in a stronger form. or something forcing sch's to not be in cleric stance the whole fight.

  20. #120

    Skill trees can easily go awry. I look to Path of Exile as an example of this, where a mistake made early on or a patch can basically wipe out a character unless you want to throw RL money at a respec. Meanwhile, D3 is more lenient in that while all max level characters technically "know" everything, you obviously can't use them all at once due to a mix of ability slots and rune selection. XI's merits felt a mix of worthless and too limited in distribution to me. If I had a choice, I'd run with a system where you can eventually learn/master anything, but like D3, you couldn't set it all at once. The more casual players would likely stick to their preferred path, educated or otherwise, while the hardcores would be the one with the full shebang.

    As for hotbar crowding, I do agree that's an issue, too. Part of it is the whole WASD+Mouse control scheme and it's heavy emphasis on the left hand. I know I've said before that I liked XI being keyboard-only, as the game's generally slower pace allowed more room for manual dexterity with both hands instead of just one. Especially if you bound additional macros with Windower. Something other games do is have combo skill buttons morph into the next skill in the chain for a brief period, basically meaning you don't have to set every step in the combo. Or you could do something more complex Rift's macro system that could technically let you put all your abilities on one button, but you don't because of conflicts with skills that have no cooldowns or trigger effects.

    Ultimately, I think the more robust you want a class to be, the slower you have to make combat. Tales games got around this by almost being pseudo-fighters. Though, I'd also argue controllers from SNES era and higher are more multi-input friendly than the WASD scheme.

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