Brexit: Unions are for Pussies

[TsingTao]

So in short, we're fucked. All because Theresa May has the negotiation skills of a plank of wood.

I am curious what anyone that voted for Brexit thought would happen. Britain has no real leverage in leaving. Leaving was always going to cost billions and require huge effort to put back in to place all the mechanisms needed for free trade without completely open borders. Did people expect May to negotiate some miracle deal that wouldn't impact businesses at all, wouldn't cost Britain billions in cash, and wouldn't create border issues with Ireland? Did people truly not expect the rest of the EU to nail Britain to a cross as a sign to other nations that leaving was a terrible idea?

Honest question here...what could she really do in this position that would satisfy people?

[Koyangi]

Brexit isn't the problem here, the idiots in Westminster are the problem. Theresa May spent two years negotiating a terrible deal in which no one likes and then expects to get it through parliament. Apparently she is going to try for a fourth time now. The problem with this ongoing shit show isn't the fact we're leaving the EU, but the uncertainty it is bringing to the economy, yet now we're talking of extensions of 1-2 years that will keep this shit show on the road. They just need to get on with it, and get it done. Brexit will ultimately be a success, but dragging it out is doing us no good.

Parliament is full of remainers who will do anything to block Brexit which is pushing us towards a no deal outcome. Yet at the same time they're voting against that too. WTF? We are leaving and the only way to avoid leaving without a deal is to vote for a deal, and as bad as May's deal is I am in agreement with those saying it is better than the alternative options. A customs union is likely to get a majority in parliament but that is an awful idea and doesn't deliver Brexit. It would be like staying in the EU but giving up all say in matters. Joining EFTA (European Free Trade Association (like Norway)) might be a decent compromise - we stay in the single market but don't have a customs union so we can make our own trade deals.

Having a second referendum would be a terrible idea too. You can't just ignore the biggest democratic vote in the country's history, and the argument that some people have changed their minds is a bad one. We'd need to hold a general election every week if we wanted to give people another vote because they've changed their mind. People will change their mind again and again, do we have a third referendum? A fourth? Got to stop somewhere. To top it off those hypocrites in the Scottish National Party will gladly push for one but I bet they won't hold the same opinion if they were to win an independence referendum.

I would like to say we need an election to get rid of the current crop of MPs who don't represent the will of the people, but the prospect worries me. The only thing that could be worse for this country than a no deal Brexit is a country ran by Corbyn so let's not risk that.

So in short, we're fucked. All because Theresa May has the negotiation skills of a plank of wood.

The problem with all of this stems from the fact that the government shouldn't have "punted" the responsibility of a vote on "leave" or "stay" to the people as a referendum. Something as intricate and nuanced as being (or not being) in the EU shouldn't be decided by people whom most of them don't understand 99% of all the details involved in this process. What makes it worse are the shit-post equivalent of a shit-voters, people voting leave just for the "funny" of it. This is really the entire governments fault and they deserve to suffer for the error, not the people of the country.

Putting my quote from a page ago here as well.

You can't be serious if you think the problem(s) exist(ed) only at the point they were at after the referendum's verdict came back as "leave."

They couldn't possibly handle this business in the Parliament where it should have been, so they decided having the people decide was a brilliant idea. This is where the fuck up begins.

The Parliament had no business sending an issue this complicated to the people, since most of them have no idea all of the nuances involved in it. This is exactly why you have a government, to be the ones "responsible" for dealing with the country's complicated politics and trade deals and other relationships/unions it has with other countr(y/ies).

At this rate, if it continues like this, a No Deal Brexit seems the most likely, and this will be worse for Great Britian than a "stay" or Theresa May's "best" deal she's put forward for a vote would have been.

With a Parliament that has more Labour party members in it than any other party, did anyone think this would go over very well?

[Sephiroth]

Going to quote both of you:

I am curious what anyone that voted for Brexit thought would happen. Britain has no real leverage in leaving. Leaving was always going to cost billions and require huge effort to put back in to place all the mechanisms needed for free trade without completely open borders. Did people expect May to negotiate some miracle deal that wouldn't impact businesses at all, wouldn't cost Britain billions in cash, and wouldn't create border issues with Ireland? Did people truly not expect the rest of the EU to nail Britain to a cross as a sign to other nations that leaving was a terrible idea?

Honest question here...what could she really do in this position that would satisfy people?

Putting my quote from a page ago here as well.

You can't be serious if you think the problem(s) exist(ed) only at the point they were at after the referendum's verdict came back as "leave."

They couldn't possibly handle this business in the Parliament where it should have been, so they decided having the people decide was a brilliant idea. This is where the fuck up begins.

The Parliament had no business sending an issue this complicated to the people, since most of them have no idea all of the nuances involved in it. This is exactly why you have a government, to be the ones "responsible" for dealing with the country's complicated politics and trade deals and other relationships/unions it has with other countr(y/ies).

At this rate, if it continues like this, a No Deal Brexit seems the most likely, and this will be worse for Great Britian than a "stay" or Theresa May's "best" deal she's put forward for a vote would have been.

With a Parliament that has more Labour party members in it than any other party, did anyone think this would go over very well?

David Cameron and the Conservatives were elected in 2015 with an EU referendum in their manifesto, that's what the people wanted. A referendum on the EU was inevitable. You can't silence the majority for too long, eventually you end up with someone like Donald Trump in office. UKIP were gaining popularity to the point where they were posing a real threat. Over 4 million people voted for them in 2015, and whilst our system meant they got just 1 MP they had momentum and it's not inconceivable that a future election could have gotten them elected.

You are right that no one voting Brexit could have imagined what a shit show leaving would be, because most people just wanted to leave the single market and customs union and negotiate a trade deal. How hard can it be? Japan and Canada have just managed to negotiate good free trade deals with the EU without joining the single market or customs union, as have countries before them. I believe the US was trying before Trump got elected.

Why the fuck has Theresa May spent two years negotiating nothing? There hasn't been a single discussion on trade since article 50 was triggered. We probably would have been better off leaving without a deal two years ago and negotiating trade deals there and then. People don't like the Withdrawl Agreement because it says nothing on what our relationship with the EU will be.

They are now but I seriously have doubts public opinion on Brexit has changed much. Maybe that's Last Week Tonight programming speaking out for me but there's little hope that a second referendum will magically stop the desire for a Brexit since Cameron is the fucking dumbass that put Great Britian on the path of self immolation to prevent UKIP from eating into their majority.

The opinion polls are putting remain about 4 points ahead of leave, but I wouldn't take any notice of that. The polls before the referendum were also saying remain would win. The opinion polls also said Trump wouldn't win the US election. In reality, if you were a leave or remain voter in 2016 then chances are you still are. Some may switch their vote, but every poll has swing voters. There's probably a few million people on the fence who could be persuaded to vote either way. I was on the fence before the referendum and voted leave because I don't like the way the EU is ran, and David Cameron proved to us that you can't change the EU when he tried to negotiate a better deal and failed. So far over the last two years the EU have only strengthened my view on leaving due to the way they have treated us with utter contempt. I wouldn't hesitate to vote leave again if the opportunity comes.

The problem with a new referendum is it will be biased towards remain. Pitching Theresa May's shit deal vs remain - a deal in which most leavers don't even like! I've even heard suggestions that in order to achieve a remain result the referendum should be designed to split the leave vote by pitching May's deal, no deal and remain against each other. The minute you start fiddling democratic votes or overturning democratic votes is the minute your country stops being a democracy.

I'll leave off with a video.



Clearly our politicians are liars. Sack the lot of them!

[Fiye]

Did you vote for Brexit tho?

[Mrbeansman]

I wonder what you don't like about the way the EU is ran and how much of it is "They make us let the brown people in".

[Karbuncle]

Going to quote both of you:

Hope you don’t expect anything but insults and assumption on you just being a racist as retort from here. That’s all it ever goes too.

[Greatguardian]

Iirc Seph was more of a state's rights guy. At this point though, I'm not sure it matters. The EU has the UK staring down the barrel of a gun. They have no impetus to renegotiate anything. The UK is fucked, it just needs to reach a consensus on what kind of fucking they're willing to receive.

[Mrbeansman]

I really hope the EU doesnt budge an inch on this. The leavers attitdude from the start has been about getting as many EU benefits as possible so they can leech off it without having to give back. Oh and keeping da immigrants out cant forget about that.

[Byrthnoth]

What do you guys think about making all votes in parliament/congress anonymous?

It would shift our representative democracies back towards the representatives.

[Karbuncle]

Iirc Seph was more of a state's rights guy. At this point though, I'm not sure it matters. The EU has the UK staring down the barrel of a gun. They have no impetus to renegotiate anything. The UK is fucked, it just needs to reach a consensus on what kind of fucking they're willing to receive.

No-Deal I believe is the more popular of the two options in the UK atm since its becoming clear the "Deal" will never change or May is incompetent. A No-Deal Brexit stands to hurt the EU more than the UK long term, the UK brings a lot to the table for the EU and losing what they offer won't be easy to replace. Delaying the vote will only serve to cost a lot of time and money and put more and more strain on the UK. No matter what side of the vote you stand on, i think we all want to rip this bandaid off and get on with fixing what needs to be fixed for the future.

Theresa May is an embarrassment at this point in how she's handling the exit.

I really hope the EU doesnt budge an inch on this.

Couldn't agree more. Though I feel sorry for the countries who remain and have to fill-in the very large financial and resource hole the UK is going to leave behind due to the EU acting like a jilted ex lover.

[Byrthnoth]

IIRC based on the recent votes, a second referendum is the most popular option.

[Karbuncle]

IIRC based on the recent votes, a second referendum is the most popular option.

Perhaps, though I did specify "of the two options" (deal or no deal).

I don't have positive thoughts about a "second" referendum if I'm being honest. Democracy isn't something you throw away or cry "do-over" because you lost, at least in my opinion(IDC who is doing it, left or right btw, my opinion on that will remain the same). To specify this is not an "for all time" position, I'm all for a second vote once the first one is fully honored.

[Zealot]

I'm pretty sure one of the highlights of democracy is that you can vote to undo things you don't like if after a few years they haven't panned out

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[Greatguardian]

That whole "Democracy doesn't have do-overs" marketing campaign was shockingly successful. Whoever came up with that should get a million raises and retire on a boat in the Pacific.

[archibaldcrane]

I'm pretty sure one of the highlights of democracy is that you can vote to undo things you don't like if after a few years they haven't panned out

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Or just ignore ill-advised non-binding referendums.

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[Gredival]

It's almost like you can't get the financial windfalls of being in the EU without shouldering some of the costs. Imagine that.

It's almost like how you can't choose which public benefits the government provides based on what you like and use, you pay taxes for all of it.

Imagine that

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[Fiye]

I don't know why its so atonishing that there's an overlap of people who supported brexit but also strongly feel that "Democracy isn't something you throw away or cry "do-over" because you lost".

[Greatguardian]

I don't know why its so atonishing that there's an overlap of people who supported brexit but also strongly feel that "Democracy isn't something you throw away or cry "do-over" because you lost".

That's just the thing. Plenty of the folks you see repeating this "Suck it up, Buttercup!"-esque language either didn't give a shit about Brexit or weren't all that committed to the Leave camp. It's an excellent marketing campaign because it plays directly on peoples' desire to feel tough and superior. You don't have to support leaving the EU to propagate the message. All you need is a desire to get one over on some 'whiny' 'sore losers.' It's brilliant.

[Fiye]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-after-brexit

Spoiler: show

April fools

[Salodin]

A No-Deal Brexit stands to hurt the EU more than the UK long term,

Lol I'd like some reasoning on this. There are plenty of ports and roads the EU can use for trade. The UK is fucked.

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