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  1. #41

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyall View Post
    but we like playing XIV
    How...dare you...

  2. #42

    Can you name a single MMO that actually has this system? Allowing midfight checkpoints would shorten the shelf life of the encounter significantly, so really can't imagine why any developer would ever do this.
    Pretty sure he means solely for practicing, not so much "Get mob to Phase 2, you wipe, and it'll restart on Phase 2!" kind of deal. So, if it's a multi-phase encounter and each takes like 5m, getting to P3 or later and that being the trouble area basically guarantees 10+ minutes until you can even try to correct yourself.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Pretty sure he means solely for practicing, not so much "Get mob to Phase 2, you wipe, and it'll restart on Phase 2!" kind of deal. So, if it's a multi-phase encounter and each takes like 5m, getting to P3 or later and that being the trouble area basically guarantees 10+ minutes until you can even try to correct yourself.
    I'm aware of what he means, but I don't understand why you took issue with my post. By "shelf life" I don't mean the encounter's duration, I mean how long it takes groups to learn the encounter. If a boss takes x days/lockouts to learn currently, you can be sure it's going to take significantly less time to go down if there was a system to selectively practice mechanics/phases.

  4. #44
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    I'd be for that as part as the 3.35 update. I'd also be for unlocking the raid at the same time. Come 3.4 there will be little reason to do Savage midas, might as well open it up and make it accessible now. 2.55 was a very good time for raiders and PUGs with people farming T10-13.

  5. #45

    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    I'm aware of what he means, but I don't understand why you took issue with my post. By "shelf life" I don't mean the encounter's duration, I mean how long it takes groups to learn the encounter. If a boss takes x days/lockouts to learn currently, you can be sure it's going to take significantly less time to go down if there was a system to selectively practice mechanics/phases.
    Well, look at it another way. If you log out hating the game, the game is doing something wrong. Figuring out encounters is notorious for that, further so in the PUG scene. Things being defeated more quickly might not exactly be true since it's also a matter of comparing time with Real + Practice vs. Real without Practice (and ideally retaining that in subsequent clears). Won't say there wouldn't be a difference, but probably not enough to be appreciable.

    Personally not a fan of lockouts of the "you get one chance, blow it and you're out" kinda style of events. XIV hasn't had the latter, but such was the case in XI with stuff like orb BCs or other boss fights. Both don't lend themselves well to practicing in the live environment, hence the appeal for training modes.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Well, look at it another way. If you log out hating the game, the game is doing something wrong. Figuring out encounters is notorious for that, further so in the PUG scene.
    Here's how I look at it: if you don't enjoy progression raiding, don't do progression raiding. In 3 years of raiding, the number of nights I've logged out "hating the game" while my group was progressing through a tier can be counted with one hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Things being defeated more quickly might not exactly be true since it's also a matter of comparing time with Real + Practice vs. Real without Practice (and ideally retaining that in subsequent clears). Won't say there wouldn't be a difference, but probably not enough to be appreciable.
    Most of the time spent in progression is spent redoing phases you already know. The difference would be very much appreciable.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I don't think that's ever going to not be the case again unless some time machine becomes available and everyone goes back to when they were in middle/high/college and had nothing but free time to devote to a single game. If you take it back to XI days where you can't even tie your own shoes in the field without a full party and a 6-hour block of time set aside, you're going to have a passionate, but minuscule community in this era
    What I want to know then is where have all the teens and college kids gone? Does the world somehow have less of them than it used to, just because our community isn't part of that demographic anymore?

    Or is it perhaps that how games are enjoyed and developed has simply changed on the whole, and not just across a certain demographic?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    Aquapolis is a step in the right direction but perhaps PotD can be a solid foundation for more social activities. Which should improve overall communication across all content.
    Old post and someone may have addressed it by now but here it goes anyway... PotD honestly looks like it's going in the opposite direction in terms of social impact. I mean, you get 2 save slots and the second you enter with a group you have to continue going with that group, otherwise you need to wipe the save and start over since those people you entered with are linked to the save. It's hot fucking garbage and futher exacerbates the issue I have with raiding in this game: it is extremely contained and unfriendly to social interaction and expansion.

    Also re: Discord etc; myself and a few other people are connected to our FC's Discord pretty much 24/7 via phone app/PC app and we haven't been subbed in months. Social interaction via VOIP is fun regardless of the game but it doesn't necessarily make the game or its content any better for a lot of people. I get far more enjoyment out of bullshitting on Discord about x y or z, even if we aren't playing the same game together at the time, no matter what I'm doing. Watching Youtube, playing a single player game, whatever. I agree with anyone who says that social interaction via third party mediums has got very little to do with the game and more for the people and could even argue that it further highlights the problems with XIV and its social structure. I'm glad Lyall is enjoying Aquapolis or whatever, and whoever else is good for you too, but it's hard to link that and Discord and then say that you'll enjoy XIV more if you use VOIP.

    Personally I can get past the whole social interaction issues that XIV cultivates, but not with the content structure currently on offer. I said it before and I'll say it again for emphasis: the game needs more long term content. It doesn't need to take someone 3 hours to clear it every day, it can be 10-20 minutes a run that you can do whenever and however you want... but add longevity to it. Make it last more than a week or two. There are 3 to 4 months between content updates. This has its own issues, but it isn't the worst out there in terms of MMO content cycles. That said, the content that comes out of those 3-4 month patches does not even come close to lasting that amount of time in any capacity (raids maybe for people in more casual raid groups). This is a major issue that I hope gets addressed in 4.0, though at this stage I expect absolutely nothing but a carbon copy of 2.0/3.0 once again since Yoshida is far too happy in his contrived little safe bubble of mediocrity and pandering to the supercasual (yes, supercasual. sorry but even a casual can clear all of a patch's content, sans raids, within a week or two) audience.

    And before anyone says "but tome/other token grinds are eternal!"

    Ok. Now, what purpose do those tokens really have? Let's think about it. A patch comes out that raises the ilvl. 5-6 months later, another patch comes that raises the ilvl again and makes all of the previous ilvl content obselete while simultaneously making it excessively easier to get the previous ilvl's gear. The person who spend months grinding tomes every single week has absolutely nothing over the guy who resubs for the new ilvl patch and gets a full set of previously-max-ilvl gear in a week. The treadmill has little to no meaning in this game without more meaningful or longlasting content to back it up.

    Guess that sums up my major reasons for unsubbing, the only other major thing being how fucking scummy it feels when you're paying a subscription fee only to have new merchandise and cash shop items roll out on a near weekly basis.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    Nobody is asking for this, maybe drop the hyperbole sometime. There's a world of a difference between wanting every menial task to require grouping up, and wanting more group content than 4 fights every 6-7 months.

    Just having any incentive at all to do premades for content would be nice.
    I'm actually not attempting to be hyperbolic in the slightest. 2000-era MMO name-drops typically involve the nostalgia of having to "work" for your acquisitions and of the "challenge" involved in having groups required for content, ect. ect.

    I don't have a solution for your premade content problem, because its not personally a problem to me, so I've not thought too much on it. When my friends want to do something, we group for it. When I don't have enough friends that want to do something, I DF for it. Eh. Granted, I'm barely doing any of the "new" content aside from Map vagina portals, so I'm no expert in the field of "modern ways that SE refuses to innovate."

    Edit: And Yes, Arus, that's exactly what I mean. For Practice. For Training. To be able to train on a specific part of an encounter instead of having to spend 15 minutes going through the first two phases that you have down pat.

    That feature needs to be in more games. Its a goddamned good feature. A great one, in fact.

    @Solracht: Perhaps for someone who has an issue with clearing content and then doing something else, I suppose faster clears, even if content was hard as nails, would be problematic. I'm not that person, though. My enjoyment of an encounter doesn't diminish the second I beat it, especially if I'm looking back on how rigorous the training was to beat said encounter and I'm shaking my head on what I had to work though. Beating the content faster just means that my team could gear up and have their desires met faster. The only time content was unsatisfying was if it took 0 effort or just wasn't fun. If the content was hard as nails, but I got to train for the hardest part more often - that wouldn't ruin my enjoyment of the content once I beat it. The opposite would happen: I'd be relieved that MMOs have finally arrived at the point where I can train specifically to improve where I need to.

    The way you say it, I should be upset at gaining bigger pecs in the gym because I was allowed to isolate my chest training to where I needed the most muscle growth, because that would lead to faster gains and "cheapen" the experience. I'm not cheating - I'm not juicing. I'm just targeting the area that needs the most work directly, instead of working everything and growing at a slower rate.

    Fuckers that glitched into the ceiling on T5 and burned TT to death: those fuckers were cheapening the experience.

    Its a good thing they're making this game for lots of different people, though. It would absolutely blow (for everyone else) if it was made for just one type of person.

    @Silenka: They're not playing MMORPGs. They didn't grow up playing them. Their 12-year-old love wasn't FFVII: it was Minecraft. Their 15-year-old love wasn't Warcraft 3: it was some steam indie title or Borderlands. They're playing games, just other games. Its our generation and our generation's direct spawn (the people of who's interests we directly and indirectly control) that are playing MMOs. The generation behind us has other shit they grew up loving.

  10. #50

    Here's how I look at it: if you don't enjoy progression raiding, don't do progression raiding. In 3 years of raiding, the number of nights I've logged out "hating the game" while my group was progressing through a tier can be counted with one hand.
    You're not everyone, however, and this mentality is arguably one of the biggest cancers of MMOs as it essentially advocates a significant chunk of dev resources going toward placating an often vocal minority. "Play my way or GTFO!" being the negative here. Content exposure is the ultimate goal, as the more people who successfully participate, the less dev investment seems wasted. However, this argument also extends to progression options outside of raiding. Far as most games go, it's usually pretty abysmal "because no one would ever raid" then. Or so the claim goes. Part of why people don't is precisely because they don't have the time to waste on content they already know or being held up in training because some people in the group still don't quite get it and they can't reliably commit to the weekly slog.

    Overall, these games tend to be about combat. It might not be raiding, but there needs to be a solid endgame for everyone to feel like their characters are both growing, but at the same time, not falling behind despite their best efforts. "Not Raiders" usually get told fluff content should be enough to satisfy them because they don't play with the big boys and all that shit. In XIV's case, if the implication is stuff like Gold Saucer or LoV should keep people happy, well...

    What I want to know then is where have all the teens and college kids gone? Does the world somehow have less of them than it used to, just because our community isn't part of that demographic anymore?

    Or is it perhaps that how games are enjoyed and developed has simply changed on the whole, and not just across a certain demographic?
    It's not so much that the student element has lessened, but a mix of demographics fluctuating alongside the fact knowledge of what works and doesn't has changed over time. Let's just say that 10 years ago, perhaps there were 15 million players between the ages of 13-21. Those 22+ might number closer to 10 mil because society still arguably has that stigma that video games aren't cool or whatever. Fast forward 10 years, and maybe that first number has jumped to a potential 17.5m, while the second is now 25m by adding the prior gen. Appealing to the latter certainly seems more financially sound since adults are more likely to have money, but on the other hand, adulthood begins to carry other responsibilities that will directly hinder potential play time.

    Of course, in another 10 years, that cycle will repeat. This isn't to say everyone in the prior gen will continue to play, but if they do have a general love for gaming, then odds are they'll still poke their head into things they find interesting. Nonetheless, pandering to the no-life teenager becomes risky not only for numbers, but because of the knowledge the prior gen also has when it comes to what works and doesn't. "Make stuff hard!" is frequently a bias request, as it's often made based on that individual's experience and current circle. If you're surrounded by good players who play similarly to you, then the "hard" stuff would be doable. However, for anyone else who doesn't meet those conditions, it can wind up looking impossible. Circling back to talk on accessibility, a game people feel they can't play is doomed to become a game people don't play. And this is the cumulative result of MMOs past and present, with some games eventually shutting down.

    Problem is, the teens or certain stubborn adults may not realize or really want to accept why things are the way they are. This isn't to say devs are infallible, but whines about entitlement frequently fail to grasp that the relationship between the players and developers is symbiotic. And I feel part of the current MMO stagnation is that the dev side is also caught in that stubborn in-between of past and present. Some of that's our fault for giving mixed signals when fighting amongst ourselves, sure, but part of the package behind us paying devs is for them to figure out what's needed. Those who think we just need XI 2.0 need to go back in time and figure out why WoW wound up the preferred MMO of the generation, trumping XI's population many times over. Then realize the conditions between now and then are different. It may be humbling. It may be infuriating. But it's not going away.

  11. #51

    Famitsu also posted their E3 interview today - http://www.famitsu.com/news/201606/28109562.html

  12. #52
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    Further refining my thoughts:

    As I mentioned yesterday, I was happy to find something to do with my friends I don't get to play as much with as of recently. This establishes a pretty clear challenge, though, as the meat of it: I'm NOT making new friends with the new content, I'm just trying to catch lightning in a bottle again with my old ones. Aquapolis is neat, sure, but I don't know if it would be as fun or relaxed in a group with randoms or strangers. Palace of the Dead, as mentioned, only has two save slots. It's short enough to probably knock it all out on an evening or weekend with one set group, but is that the same thing? I'm not sure.

    Palace of the Dead looks fun for me and mine, just like Aquapolis is, but we're not every player or probably even the intended demos for them. As a game that cultivates making new social connections, I'm inclined to agree that nothing in the pipes looks like it's going to do anything for that in the long-term. Smash PotD with randoms to get a 220/230 weapon, then never see them again.

  13. #53

    MMOs being more twitchy about their combat doesn't really help the making friends while playing aspect. I know some try to blame matchmaking systems, but I know there were a lot of people I partied with in XI that didn't wind up my next BFF. And that's cool with me. Sometimes you just wanna shut your brain off and do something.

  14. #54
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    It's something I really liked about XI, actually, since you spent most of your time in combat auto-attacking anyway. There's really not a lot of time to type while also doing your job in any other MMO. I miss being able to chat while still pulling good chains.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    You're not everyone, however, and this mentality is arguably one of the biggest cancers of MMOs as it essentially advocates a significant chunk of dev resources going toward placating an often vocal minority. "Play my way or GTFO!" being the negative here.
    Keep in mind, this is what I was responding to:
    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Well, look at it another way. If you log out hating the game, the game is doing something wrong. Figuring out encounters is notorious for that
    You made a really strong and general claim here in relation to raiding. Let me clarify: if a game frustrates me to the point of hate, but still manages to please enough people to keep it profitable (key point here) I wouldn't say the game is doing something wrong, I'd say the game isn't for me and I'd stop playing it (or partaking in the frustrating activity). There are plenty of popular and profitable games that leave me frustrated (and endless sideactivities within them) and really I can't imagine taking your approach for most of them.

    If raiding didn't have enough players to be sustainable (and if people who dislike raiding would stop raiding) then developers would stop making raids, change their practices, or go out of business (see Wildstar: oldschool raiding clearly has no place in MMOs anymore). Either way, I think your points about content exclusivity and wasted development resources aren't even relevant for many modern games (at least for XIV) given the way raiding has evolved over the years: multiple difficulties, increased accessibility, non-group based ilevel progression to go alongside raiding, etc. The way you talk about raiding sometimes, you'd think nothing has changed in the past decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    advocates a significant chunk of dev resources going toward placating an often vocal minority.
    ...
    Content exposure is the ultimate goal, as the more people who successfully participate, the less dev investment seems wasted.
    ...
    Overall, these games tend to be about combat. It might not be raiding, but there needs to be a solid endgame for everyone to feel like their characters are both growing, but at the same time, not falling behind despite their best efforts. "Not Raiders" usually get told fluff content should be enough to satisfy them because they don't play with the big boys and all that shit. In XIV's case, if the implication is stuff like Gold Saucer or LoV should keep people happy, well...
    This is a game where, unlike in other games, non-raiders are actually given max ilevel gear for doing non-raiding activities. On top of that, raids have a story mode and the "hard" version gets eased up over time, which eventually allows literally anyone to go and see it if they care to. XIV might be terrible and it certainly has a million issues, plus its content design barely satisfies anyone but I don't think this part of your usual rhetoric should be in the XIV forums of all places.

    ----------------------
    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    That feature needs to be in more games. Its a goddamned good feature. A great one, in fact.
    Still waiting to hear about any game that has this feature so we can actually discuss/see its effects in practice.

    Also, not once did I talk about your system cheapening the experience, I said I don't see why it would be in the best interest of any developer to turn a long-term activity (span of days/weeks) into a short term one (hours/days). I still don't see why.

    But since you have me all figured out:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    even if content was hard as nails
    I'm not going to partake in the inevitable argument about the concept of "difficulty" after this post, but being able to selectively train a specific part of a fight would lower its overall difficulty in my eyes. It's not like you do the first phases of a fight while asleep: they still require focus, paying attention, and in some fights, near-perfect performance. Trying to understand and execute something like Gavel after 9 minutes of dealing with Brute Justice's mechanics would be an entirely different experience compared to being able to jump right into it on every pull.

    I'm just thinking of how different it feels to learn the first mechanic of a fight vs. some of the last ones. In a given pull, the way you've handled a given phase can and will affect your chance to learn the next one: are there enough people alive to deal with this mechanic? Are they correctly positioned after finishing the last phase? Do people have enough HP/MP/cooldowns from dealing with the last phase? Many phases aren't that difficulty by themselves, it's the whole package that makes them hard to learn. Are they going to make every phase overly complex to make up for being able to split them up?

    I just don't see how they could keep the same feeling of difficulty with this training mode, but again, do bring up any game that has it implemented. Maybe they figured it out and we can go check out this system that should apparently be a standard in every MMO.

    I can understand that some fights in this game feel very long and sometimes even overloaded with mechanics, but I'm not convinced the training mode is the answer. Personally I'd welcome shorter fights, especially if it resulted in more bosses per tier (this also means more rewards and more goal posts).

  16. #56
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    The Famitsu article is the same interview, I guess it was a joint interview from multiple JP media outlets.

    If something was unclear in the first translation or you wanted a second take on something let me know because the Famitsu one would be a different person transcribing so may have some slight variations.

  17. #57
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    @Arus: That's a very good point. With all of the "dodge the orange!" mechanics going on, fighting seriously in combat doesn't lead itself to much conversation aside from raiding. In XI, the only one really getting that workout in was War/nin or Nin/war. I remember doing a shit ton of jiggling up and down, waiting for that delicious 100% tp.

    @Solracht: You'll have to wait a bit longer then. One doesn't exist. Not exactly a lot of new raiding MMOs coming down the chain either, as the genre has lost its cash-crop title quite some time ago.

    @Slycer: Thanks for the translation, man.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    What I want to know then is where have all the teens and college kids gone? Does the world somehow have less of them than it used to, just because our community isn't part of that demographic anymore?

    Or is it perhaps that how games are enjoyed and developed has simply changed on the whole, and not just across a certain demographic?
    I wouldn't say that, but I do have a belief that the demographic of people that play the sort of game XI (for example) is, is more and more a majority of college or working-class adults versus the middle-school/high-school kids.

    Not because they suddenly "disappeared", but mainly because there's such a diverse array of online games that aren't necessarily MMOs (re: shooters like CoD/BF/Destiny, racing games, cooperative games) that they're far more spread out to their home console of preference rather than being stuck on a PC (or PS4) all day playing an MMO when they can just have multiple, short bursts of content that they enjoy all the same

    In comparison to before, when our only alternatives of online gaming were rather limited (PS2 era, I mean), since our choices were the barely budding FFXI, PSO on Dreamcast/GCN, Everquest, WoW, or couch-multi games. Or, you know, going out to the arcade. I miss arcades. Anyway, I think that's attributed tons more towards favoring the demographic to the older crowd instead.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slycer View Post
    On an economic note, with the addition of the Aquapolis in patch 3.3 and gil becoming easier to earn in content, aren't you worried about inflation?

    Yoshida: When we looked at the economy up to patch 3.2, the disparity between the haves and have-nots as far as gil is concerned was too extreme. There are players who are busy in real life and typically spend most of their in-game time doing battle content. However, gil savings was pretty low for players who were just focused on battle content, and they still need gil to do things like melding materia, repairing equipment, and purchasing food or medicines for raiding. They also need gil just to purchase items off the markets. Despite playing the game for a while, the amount of gil these players had could make it difficult to use some of these systems, so the balance was off. We decided to add Aquapolis to increase the amount of gil these players can obtain each day.
    It's like he doesn't understand economics at all. Aquapolis didn't inflate anything, it just made certain things much, much more common and depreciated their value. I've even made more money than normal off Aquapolis selling things like the tank i180 gear that used to be prohibitive due to adamantite ingot cost. Sold several of those @ 2m a pop with the ingots being the main ingredient and now cost about 30k to make.

    The value of a single mhachi matter by far eclipses any change Aquapolis brought to casual players.

  20. #60
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    I really feel like the failure of Diadem was a turning point for this game. It could have tied together crafting, housing, FCs, and multi-party pseudo-open-world content into one useful, compelling event. Instead, it was designed like a much worse version of Hunts.

    As far as raid training goes, I think it could be implemented but it would have to be done so in a way that didn't precisely train you for the difficulty of the fight. For example, you could have a Danger Room-type environment where you pick a raid and a phase, and you focus specifically on movement, or specifically on killing adds in a given order/location, but players take no damage and there is no real DPS check; if you fail a mechanic, you simply get a "strike" and the encounter ends after three strikes.

    So as an example, if you were to simulate final phase Titan EX:

    - Titan would be untargetable
    - egis would die after 3 hits, puddles give heavy only
    - superbomb would die after all 4 DPS + 2 tanks hit it
    - rest of the simulation is movement only

    I don't think this is too far removed from Land, Sea, Sky, which is basically just the other half of the equation.

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