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  1. #21
    A. Body
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    I'll say this: if the gear from literally every non-progression-raid event was bumped up about 20-30 ilvls (however much it needs to be equal to, 5 under at WORST, to raid gear) you'd have a much healthier population never complaining about lack of things to do.

    Look at PVP. Gear is pointless. At any given point it's always like 20 ilvls under the top, and Morale basically still means nothing right? Make it equal to raid gear and now people who PvP have a good reward for their hefty time investment.

    Deep Dungeon almost has the right idea with glowy weapon. Now make it a good ilvl.

    Diadem, the way it was at initial release loot-wise was almost good. Source of RNG-y gear. This alone could fuel the rest of the week's content after lockouts are done with.

    Etc etc. If they're worried about pissing off their raid-tier followers, honestly fuck 'em. I'd pretty confidently say the majority would rather have a bigger population of people that WANT to play, rather than a confined population of people who feel like everything is a waste of time except these 4 boss fights and capping their tomes. Bad itemization is still obviously a problem, but this is still probably an improvement.

    Clearing the tier doesn't even necessarily give you a lot of satisfaction if you're being dicked over by loot not going your way for weeks on end. Even with the tokens.

    Agreed. They had it right with 2.1. Multiple ways to get to capped ilvl. Diadem was a good idea executed poorly but giving BiS gear at Random was not the problem.

    While I don't think capped ilvl should be handed to the population, multiple paths would make a lot of sense. I also think they need to open up the silly stat caps per ilvl.

    Example:

    Pvp: i260 chest 150str, 160 vit, 50 crit, 80 det
    Tome: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 acc, 100 crit
    Voidark: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 crit, 100 det
    Raid: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 acc, 120 crit, 80 det

    There would be multiple paths to i260 and its major stats (STR/VIT in this example) but there would still be reason to work on the raid gear.

  2. #22
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    Look at PVP. Gear is pointless. At any given point it's always like 20 ilvls under the top, and Morale basically still means nothing right? Make it equal to raid gear and now people who PvP have a good reward for their hefty time investment.
    Speaking as a healer, PVP gear is useful in PVP. Given the i150 cap, PVP gear is ideally optimized as ~i190 gear that has no parry or accuracy (and it usually tends to follow that trend). This allows PVPers to maximize secondary stats, without it becoming overpowered PVE gear.

  3. #23
    Old Odin
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    I mean, sure? But you get my point (and also underline the allure: make PvP gear the "no Acc, pure damage" gear you can dump into when you have way too much Acc).

  4. #24
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    I don't think you can really do that at/near the PVE gear cap, though, because it would generally crush everything else.

    To wit: if you could get i240 gear from PVP with guaranteed "pure damage" stats, then you would occasionally have some PVP gear that is outright superior to the raid drops (e.g. current i240 lore gun vs. Midas gun). In the other slots, you would mix and match from all other PVE events until you hit your accuracy target, then wear PVP gear everywhere else.

    Overall, you would force a lot of PVE players to grind PVP for the best PVE gear, which is not a good look. It's fine to make PVP gear pure-damage-only, but then you have to make sure it's underleveled (especially since Morale makes iLVL redundant while actually in PVP) or PVP gear will just outclass everything else.

  5. #25
    Dragoon Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taint View Post
    Agreed. They had it right with 2.1. Multiple ways to get to capped ilvl. Diadem was a good idea executed poorly but giving BiS gear at Random was not the problem.

    While I don't think capped ilvl should be handed to the population, multiple paths would make a lot of sense. I also think they need to open up the silly stat caps per ilvl.

    Example:

    Pvp: i260 chest 150str, 160 vit, 50 crit, 80 det
    Tome: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 acc, 100 crit
    Voidark: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 crit, 100 det
    Raid: i260 chest 150 str, 160 vit, 75 acc, 120 crit, 80 det

    There would be multiple paths to i260 and its major stats (STR/VIT in this example) but there would still be reason to work on the raid gear.
    I don't think giving PvP, Tomes and Voidarc the same ilvl and primary stats as raid would promote people doing more content. People would look at the secondary stats and be like "Meh, good enough" and move along to another game until the next tier. You need something to grab people and keep them playing, something to work towards.

    I'd rather see something like gather 1 item from each event and then make a better item all together if you collect them all.

    • PvP Win Points ( the reason I say win points is because they give you points for throwing the match, they would need to make another currency for this )
      • Option 1: i250 chest 150str, 160 vit 50 crit 70 skill speed
      • Option 2: Upgrade item for double the points
    • Diadem Spoils
      • Option 1: i250 chest 150str, 160 vit 50 det 70 acc
      • Option 2: Double the spoils of the body for an upgrade item
    • VoidArk weekly
      • Option 1: i250 chest 150str, 160 vit 70 crit 50 skill speed
      • Option 2: Get 2 items over 2 weeks that can be traded for an item
    • Raid
      • i260 chest 160str, 170 vit 70 det 50 acc


    Trade in Raid i260 w/ the other upgrade items for a i270 body. Something about the i270 would need to be special, more then just ilvl and stats to make people want to work towards it though because currently ilvl and stats doesn't drive people enough. It would need to be along the lines of a set bonus w/a special stat/effect and/or ability to make people work towards it, while also having good visuals.

    Players need glory gear and proper motivation to want to keep playing content. There really are no long term goals in the game which that make people want to subscribe for long periods of time.

    Edit: To note, I don't need this personally to continue doing raid content. I'm satisfied with just difficult content as is, but I do believe there is a lack of motivation on many players part to continue pushing to get better gear.

  6. #26
    Old Odin
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    I mean, you can make PvP gear "pure damage" and still have better "pure damage" gear from other events. How much of that gear has skill/spell speed? But we're splitting hairs at this point.

  7. #27
    A. Body
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    @Kaiyoko


    Pretty sure they did that with some of the newer high end FFXI gear.

    The NQ versions were easy to get with your typical stats, but the HQ (for hardcore players) came with special set bonues.

    Tank example:

    NQ https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Souveran_Cuirass
    HQ https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Souv._Cuirass_%2B1

  8. #28
    Dragoon Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taint View Post
    Pretty sure they did that with some of the newer high end FFXI gear.

    The NQ versions were easy to get with your typical stats, but the HQ (for hardcore players) came with special set bonues.
    I don't play or pay attention to XI anymore so I wouldn't know.

  9. #29
    Dragoon Princess
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    My understanding of those links you provided is you're not getting a better item for doing more content. You're rewarded the better item by getting lucky with RNG on an HQ item similar to having an Armada vs Adaman Hauby. I'd rather you get the better item by doing the current available content more.

  10. #30
    Sea Torques
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    That's honestly an example of having gil and patience, as anyone could get a -1 and take it to be uncursed

    a better example would be ambuscade, innit?

  11. #31
    Relic Horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyoko View Post
    With a 6 week clear we're able to barely get everything we're looking for in the group. For our melee to be versatile with all 3 melees we need 48 weeks of books to have all the melee bodies and weapons if you have bad RNG. Either that or drop the cost for bodies to 4 or 6 books.

    The gear will probably even be made irrelevant going into the next tier if they add i250 crafted similar to how they added i220 from i210 this coming tier, so they might as well open the flood gates a little early for people to get some use out of them.
    Even if they removed the lockouts early I don't see why anyone would care about getting everything from the current raid when we know we'll all be wearing crafted gear and a weapon from an easy trial (or the relic) before we even step into the next raid encounter. I think solutions like "just open the floodgates early" entirely miss the point of why the current system is so unrewarding, feels like doubling down on the problem rather than fixing it.

    There's just very little benefit to raiding in HW beyond the initial clears. It wasn't much in ARR, but you'd at least get to use some of the previous tier's gear in the first weeks of the next tier - crafting gear wasn't anywhere near as good and normal mode gear didn't exist. This, coupled with the fact that the final fight was required to keep on raiding also ensured that there was never a point when doing progression was pointless even if your group was slow or if you joined the tier late.

    I think things like WoW's warforged/titanforged gear would help immensely at keeping the reclears exciting, rewarding, and giving you a small edge for the next tier: it could let you skip getting normal/crafted gear in some slots, but like with many other suggestions I doubt they'll ever do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by echo View Post
    We need more then 4 fights every 6 months. The first fight of a tier is usually pretty easy and then the difficulty has a gigantic jump and most people give up. If there were 8 fights a tier the difficulty curve would be a lot nicer. At least 2 extreme trials a patch would help people get better for savage.
    Yeah, agree completely. The main thing we need is more bosses/group content. Trying to figure out ways to make 4 bosses every 7-8 months feel good and rewarding for all the different types of raiders is simply an exercise in futility.

    Unless they start adding more group content, I've just accepted this is a game I enjoy for 2 months before mostly moving on to something else until the next tier begins.

  12. #32
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    SE releases quite a lot of bosses every tier but they only make 4 of them matter which is the issue. They really just need to increase the difficulty of some of the bosses (either through EX modes or doing something in a dungeon to beef up the dungeon boss and possibly dungeon itself) and spread the gear throughout all the content instead of just a single event. Right now, the anima weapon is really the only thing that makes you do a variety of content and most of the content you do for it only advance the anima and not your other armor slots. Why can't it just be that doing hard mode dungeons gets you belts and accessories, doing PotD gives you access to set bonus armor pieces, Diadem drops crafting mats that can used to upgrade items from another piece of content? The way content is laid out is very linear and doing non-raid content essentially amounts to gearing up alt-jobs to maybe use to raid.

  13. #33
    Sea Torques
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    Honestly I would really like a few things:

    1. In even patches (3.4), nix normal mode and spend the extra time creating three to four original bosses then tier them out as a normal mode(regular coil difficulty). Give us 8 bosses every 6 months with growing difficulty the further you progress.
    2. 24 man in even off patch(3.45), upgrade materials from normal mode now upgrade 24 man gear as well.
    3. In odd patches(3.5 etc), add savage mode of the boss mechanics that hit the chopping block. Savage difficulty specifically for the highest gear level. Savage offers an additional growth material for +5 ilvl to a raid piece(8 or 24), no additional gear art/resources.
    - It doesn't have to be 8 bosses. It could be a few out of any of them.
    - Open up upgrade materials for 8/24 mans through weekly quest.
    - Introduction of new raid achievements in normal for people who wanted more difficulty. Kill x in less than x time, Have x stacks or Have x orbs on field at any one time, Deathless kill.

    Other: Gear gains an additional stat bonus from spirit bonding. Crafted gear of new raid patch starts at ending Ilvl of normal raid mode gear. Savage gear(pre-spiritbonded on turn in) is better than spiritbonded normal raid gear. Spiritbonded normal raid gear is better than crafted gear going into new raid mode. Un-spiritbonded raid gear is just below par with crafted gear due to forbidden melding.

    4. Experts stay in roulette, making expert roulette a roulette instead of coinflip. Experts are always group of 4 and FIFO old patch dungeons.

  14. #34
    Old Merits
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    the poor retention rate overall is one problem, there's not a big enough influx of new people that stick around to try raiding. 6 million accounts but only 500k subs means even the casual experience is lackluster to most people.

    then the numbers for alexander show that half of the players who did gordias up and left for midas. it's too late to expect 3.4 to revive anything. best hope is that they have enough feedback make things more accessible for 4.0.

  15. #35
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taint View Post
    My biggest gripe with raiding is finding 7 others with like a similar mindset, skill level and schedule. Toning the difficulty down broadens the player base (hopefully) which allows a larger raiding pool.
    Pretty much; we lost nearly two whole months of doing any thing due to being unable to find a tank or healer of sufficient quality to actually cut it in A8S. Now we're trying to find a second tank for the second time this tier (though it's really for 3.4 at this point..).

    Although i'd also be willing to knock the difficulty down if it meant getting more (relevant) content. Four retarded bosses (Brute Justice is cool though) and that fucking not-last floor Alexander theme isn't cutting it at all.

  16. #36
    Han Cholo
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    I guess this seems to be a common problem with people everywhere. The reason we couldn't kill Nidhogg was because we had been using random people to fill in for healing and casting DPS. We finally found very reliable and skillful people with a similar mentality when it comes to this game. Honestly my passion for this game went down a lot this year because a lot of my friends stopped playing completely. I almost quit myself and started playing JRPG's like crazy until a friend of mine reached out and told me that there was finally a tank spot open for me and asked if I wanted to join. I was reluctant as hell but this raid group was a really good and consistent one so I knew this was my best shot at seeing everything this game had to offer. It took us 2 weeks once we got our new healer to get Nidhogg down, and then we got the fight down so well we basically carried a horrible DRG we joked around about that had always joined our group and died randomly several times, we got him a clear and to his credit he improved a lot and didn't die as much but we still carried the shit out of him and 3 others.

    Now we finally found our final member, a person that use to lead my old static that split on just A1S out of frustration of not finding a full team ironically. I asked him randomly one day I saw him if he was interested in DPS as SMN and thank god he said yes. So after about 2 frustrating months of filling random people in, we finally have our set group and it feels great. Tomorrow I think we are going to clear A5S and move onto 6 by the following raid day at this pace. A5S is a lot of fun and probably the most gimmicky fight I have ever seen.

  17. #37
    Chram
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    It's a problem because the endgame-capable/able population is largely settled on a few select servers, and also shrinking at a steady pace. You're left to cannibalize from other groups/the wreckage of other groups until 4.0, in the hopes that it might not be dildos and also provide a desperately needed influx of players.

  18. #38
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    4 fights every 7/8 months is not enough to keep the raiding scene happy. If they NERF the difficulty level and they don't increase the amount of fights, the raiding scene will drop again.

    The raiding scene has dropped mainly because of the quality of the game going down the toilet - just like how the active player counts have gone from 700k to 400k

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

  19. #39
    Dragoon Princess
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    4 fights every 7/8 months is not enough to keep the raiding scene happy. If they NERF the difficulty level and they don't increase the amount of fights, the raiding scene will drop again.

    The raiding scene has dropped mainly because of the quality of the game going down the toilet - just like how the active player counts have gone from 700k to 400k

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
    Increasing the amount of fights per tier is just going to stop the bleeding of current raiders reaching boredom. If they want to increase the raiding population they need to incentivise raiding content better for people to want to re-establish raiding communities.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyoko View Post
    Increasing the amount of fights per tier is just going to stop the bleeding of current raiders reaching boredom. If they want to increase the raiding population they need to incentivise raiding content better for people to want to re-establish raiding communities.
    I don't disagree about incentivising players, but sticking with 4 fights per patch even with great incentives is not going to stop the bleeding. There needs to be more difficult content - just just with raiding. Everything else in this game is a boring snooze fest.

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