FFXI vs. New Video Card... FATALITY

[Byrthnoth]

My previous video card was showing the normal graphical signs of impending failure, so I decided to buy an 8GB XFX RX480. Then I RMA'd it within a week because it couldn't handle running two instances of FFXI and would either "Display Driver" crash or would bluescreen me. While deciding to RMA it, I tried:
* Updating my BIOS to the most recent version
* Trying the previous 5 versions of the AMD driver suite.
* Tried using Furmark to as a graphics stress test to see if the temp went substantially above its working temp of 80C (it didn't).

Eventually I did decide it was a hardware problem and RMA'd it for a replacement. Meanwhile, I put back in my old Radeon HD6780, which resumed doing work despite graphical artifacts.


Two days ago the replacement arrived and I uninstalled my previous drivers, installed the RX480 card, installed the newest drivers, etc. First, I tested it with Furmark and it had no problems. Then I loaded two copies of FFXI and Netflix. Fine at first, temps still looked fine. I left the two instances of FFXI on overnight. Came back today and woke up my computer, still no problem. Started typing... blue screen, VIDEO_TDR_FAILURE.


What the fuck could it be?

[Fiye]

Does it only happen when your computer goes to sleep mode and you wake it up?

[Byrthnoth]

Nope

[Krandor]

More then likely you're simply dealing with the fact that XI is a really fucking old game and modern GPUs aren't designed to work with something that old, nor would the manufacturer care to make it work.

[Byrthnoth]

Minor detail, but FFXI's age isn't exactly the problem. FFXI uses DX8.1, which is converted to DX9 by Windows through a compatibility library. DX9 is still supported by virtually all graphics hardware, including the RX480. Even if the RX480 is no longer optimized for DX9 on a hardware level, it should still be plenty capable of brute forcing it faster than old generation cards.

The problem specific to FFXI is that SE seems to have converted between the PS2's graphics engine and DX8.1 using a second shim. The PS2 was capable of a few things that weren't possible in DX8.1, and this shim handles them strangely. This is why some people have issues with FFXI causing lag at homepoints, around avatars, in specific weathers, etc. Anything with kind of a glowing particle effect results in an FFXI-unique slowdown. What you're suggesting isn't impossible, but it's pretty unlikely because I'm not near any of the known trouble spots in game when this stuff happens.

[Krandor]

XI having issues with newer model GPUs isn't a new thing. It's been happening for years since most cards don't directly support DX9 or older, they're doing it thru some level of software emulation.

Add that on top of what you're talking about with the already awkward implementation by SE, and you run into problems.

[Fiye]

The one thing I've read is reboot in safe mode, uninstall driver, reboot in safe mode + networking, and then reinstall graphics driver. (But I'm going to assume you did that since you detailed it in your first post).

Aside from that have you tried to see if the problem persists with any other game?

[Byrthnoth]

I played Undertale for a few hours yesterday and didn't have issues, but that's hardly a taxing game. The card has no problems casting Netflix. I think I can probably install Baldur's Gate or use mednafen to emulate some PS1 games, but otherwise I don't really have any way to test it.

[Krandor]

It's not the card, it's FFXI.

[Lucavi]

^ You're reading, but not listening. Its no different from trying to play Sim City 4 on a new card. Won't work right. Its not the card. Its the old tech.

XI is old. Like, PS2 old. Aint made for new cards.

[Prothescar]

Has been an issue for many years now, it's a driver conflict that has never and likely will never be addressed. Playonline.com still suggests installing 5+ year old drivers to circumvent the issue. My 480 did it, my 670s did it, my 780s did it, and my 1070 does it, though recent drivers have made the issue less intrusive (the screen merely freezes for a few seconds instead of crashing entirely).

[Isiolia]

though recent drivers have made the issue less intrusive (the screen merely freezes for a few seconds instead of crashing entirely).

If running two instances, I would often have one of them crash and the other recover, though it did seem like less of a guaranteed thing with the 1080 than the 670 it replaced. Could be drivers, or maybe the more powerful cards can simply recover faster? Either way, I saw that behavior too. Screen would hitch, bubble would pop up with "nvidia driver has crashed and recovered" message, and often one of the windows would have crashed and need to close.

If it's fully bluescreening the machine, then maybe AMD's driver isn't handling it as gracefully?

[Byrthnoth]

The "lock both screens until you force quit one" problem has been caused by the two instances deadlocking when trying to access sets of .dats at the same time. You get it most frequently when you zone simultaneously.

I'm describing a new beast in terms of FFXI bugs that I've seen or heard reported. The only previous cause of similar behavior to this that I know of was overheating, which was more frequent in laptops but not unheard of in desktops. The card is not overheating per its specifications and the hardware monitor, so I can pretty much rule that out. I am going to try leaving it on today with only one FFXI instance and see what happens.

[Isiolia]

The "lock both screens until you force quit one" problem has been caused by the two instances deadlocking when trying to access sets of .dats at the same time. You get it most frequently when you zone simultaneously.

I've had that happen too, albeit more rarely. The display driver crashing and recovering - with a message specifically saying that's what happened - was different, and more common.

[Byrthnoth]

Booo

Perhaps I'll see if I can just return this card.

[Krandor]

At least in regards to interests relevant to this forum, you're looking at needing a graphics card bad at FFXI, good at everything else, or vice versa. It's been that way for years.

[Sumy]

Upgraded to a GTX1070 and had no issues at all - only slight gains though.

Then, 3 weeks later, upgraded MOBO and Processor to i7 6700k and still no problems, and major gains.

I've also had no issues going from Win98, to 7, to 8.1, to 10.

Honestly, I think it's an AMD issue, but I'm and NVidia fan-boy so... make of it what you will.

Did you check and make sure the "Graphics Stability" option is selected? I had to do that 4 or 5 year ago when I upgraded from a ancient GTX to a 660ti since BRD songs would crash me.

Edit: is it ONLY when you run the 2nd + instance of FFXI?

[Zetanio]

^ You're reading, but not listening. Its no different from trying to play Sim City 4 on a new card. Won't work right. Its not the card. Its the old tech.

XI is old. Like, PS2 old. Aint made for new cards.

This is the correct answer.

FFXI is an old ass game that ran terribly to begin with. It's only gotten worse.

[Prothescar]

I'm describing a new beast in terms of FFXI bugs that I've seen or heard reported. The only previous cause of similar behavior to this that I know of was overheating, which was more frequent in laptops but not unheard of in desktops. The card is not overheating per its specifications and the hardware monitor, so I can pretty much rule that out. I am going to try leaving it on today with only one FFXI instance and see what happens.

It isn't new at all.

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/45...isplay-driver/
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/10...ully-Recovered
etc

This is a TDR error, when the GPU takes too long to respond to a request from the OS, the driver is stopped and restarted to avoid potential damage to the system. These can end in either a simple driver crash+recovery or a full on bluescreen depending on the OS's ability to recover the driver in a timely fashion. With XI, either of these outcomes is guaranteed to cause the game to crash due to the way it was made. Generally TDRs are caused by:

1) Driver conflicts.
2) Power issues, i.e. not enough power going in to the GPU from the PCI-E slot or directly from the PSU.
3) DirectX errors.

XI's problem is a mix of 1 and 3, it hasn't had any driver optimizations or attention from either AMD or nVidia in over 6 years. It has been a problem for a very long time now and is well documented across all XI boards and forums. Generally the only ways to decrease the chances of this error happening (and in very rare cases, stop it entirely) would be to disable shadows and weather effects and enable graphics stabilization in FFXIconfig. Additionally you can increase the TDR timing delay or disable TDR entirely via registry edits, but I can tell you that you won't always see this give you positive results.

[The Stig]

Suggestion, does AMD GPU take over the system? If not, can you not force FFXI to run with the CPU's GPU? (Intel HD 6000 or whatever it's on these days)