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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    I mean, it is a playerbase that despite this being the most accessible raid since Coils, still complain it's too hard. Nevermind the players that utter fail in normal mode with no bonus popping up....but that's a different topic.

    I just hope for 4.0, with the new battle system (or whatever they're doing) it will require less "balancing" so they can sneak in a 3rd tier. I mean they doubled the budget for Stormblood, we all know they ain't changing the basics from 2.x ever again as per Yoshida circa this past E3 and Gamescom, so they have the budget to do shit now.
    Call me stupidly naive, but I am hoping that once FFXV winds down they will shift people over to work on Stormblood as it should be their next big imminent project and we can get the content we deserve. I think 3.x as a whole has been "maintain this shit while we finish cranking out 15", especially since Yoshida got promoted and he admitted at Fanfest to being much more involved in the corporate side of SE as a whole, and not just 14.

  2. #122
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    A11S is literally a "guess which mech you are going to skip this week" fight. Not fun at all. Overall Creator savage is pretty bad imo. Shouldn't have the savage tag, should just be Creator easy and Creator normal lol. I understand they want more people to do it but its tuned so damn low. Midas was much better (still hate A6S forever though).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    I mean, it is a playerbase that despite this being the most accessible raid since Coils, still complain it's too hard. Nevermind the players that utter fail in normal mode with no bonus popping up....but that's a different topic.

    I just hope for 4.0, with the new battle system (or whatever they're doing) it will require less "balancing" so they can sneak in a 3rd tier. I mean they doubled the budget for Stormblood, we all know they ain't changing the basics from 2.x ever again as per Yoshida circa this past E3 and Gamescom, so they have the budget to do shit now.
    I'm under the assumption that Creator being notably easier then previous tiers is a one-off thing. My reasoning is follows:

    Us, the raiding population, always want more complex and challenging content, I think that's obvious. Midas' excellent reception among raiders stands as a testament to that. As far as we're concerned that's the sole metric of success, challenge and complexity.

    Yoshida and the dev team, however, are using two metrics: the challenge rating that we think about but also the number of people doing the raids. Players only have to concern themselves with personal experience. The dev team looks at total statistics.

    Now I don't think anyone is going to argue against the claim that Gordias, in hindsight, went over like a lead balloon. A4S was considered a total mess as far as raid content was concerned and it obviously did something dire to the raiding population as a whole as people stopped raiding or playing entirely. Midas was great and a much better follow-up. From my personal perspective I noticed that the groups still raiding stuck around for the second tier and had a blast, but I didn't see that many new groups forming, or old friends coming back, for that tier.

    Granted, personal observation and anecdotes can only go so far. But I'm going to make an educated assumption here that the dev team tracked a significant drop in clears (or even entries) of Gordias compared to Coil, and noted that Midas at best just stopped the bleeding. If you take that assumption as valid, then 3.4's content difficulty makes sense - what's more important to the dev team now is to grow the population back to to Coil levels or greater. The easiest way to do that is to lower the barriers to entry for endgame content. Sophia is easier then Sephirot by a lot; Creator is easier then Gordias/Midas in much the same way. There will always be players who complain about difficulty, but there are certainly new groups forming up for Creator and the number of PF groups are much higher then previous tiers, which I take as a good sign.

    Is that going to make people bored more quickly and cut subs? Probably, but they were looking down the barrel of 6 months of dead time anyway after 3.5 for Stormblood development and figured it wouldn't have that big a splash compared to that.

    For people who are super into progression and difficult fights, this may suck. But for the game as a whole, this may also be the right step to take for now. Much like you, I think they're going to take the increased budget and shoot for three raid difficulties in the expansion, but even if they don't I expect we'll see something similar to Midas when we finally get to that point.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Some what, as long as it doesn't cause a raid scene crash, you can have both. A3S was a good fight for a savage difficulty, but, it wasn't a good fight when savage was the only other difficulty. Your mid core players make up a significant margin of the playerbase(20-25%?) and the casual base more so. If you were only going to create two raid difficulties then savage should have been targeted at mid-core. Harder dps checks like a3s was too much of an ask for many and was poorly tuned.
    Its Savage. It shouldn't be a cakewalk. Just because there is a lack of content in the game doesn't mean the fight was poorly tuned. The fight, for savage, was fantastic. It was tuned for Savage. The issue was the lack of a raid tier to the levels of non savage coil. Which has nothing to do with the tuning of Alexander Savage . Yes, there is a massive lack of content - but this is why bringing 4 fights per tier is going to kill the game. Either the Mid-core get burned out and quit after a few months (Midas, and Gordias, but was particularly bad with Gordias due to the patch delays), or people burn through the patch and then don't play the game for 4 months - or in this case, more (unless they pull more Savage content out for 3.5).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    If the armory system was better designed such that switching jobs was less disruptive/frustrating then something like higher dps checks/required setups would be ok.
    I think that's a fair point. But I wouldn't say its an issue with the armory system - more with the tome system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Since the armory system isn't, DPS checks should be low enough that a properly setup group should be able to clear, and especially so if you're not coming out with a mid core tier.
    Which was the case with Midas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    The easiest solution to dps checks? Create limited time raid achievements/leaderboards and award mounts/titles/minions/whatever if you clear a fight under a certain amount of time or perform mechanics in certain ways. Create challenge in a fight for the few that want it without impacting those who do not. Or create a third tier for them.
    A third tier would solve a lot of the issues, but the first option is just lazy imo - because reward, like it or not, is a big drive for people to do content. We already have the first option with FFLogs, and honestly its just artificially extending content when we just need more content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Honestly though, the current raid is about as mid-core as it has been in a while and is about in line with coil difficulty. I'm not against raid scene revitalization. If it means skipping phases because we can push dps? W/E
    That is if this revitalises the raid scene. We'll see when everyone has unsubbed in a few months, or if SE brings out some more content. Remember what happened between final coil and 3.0?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    I mean they doubled the budget for Stormblood
    Was that in the live letter?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    That is if this revitalizes the raid scene. We'll see when everyone has unsubbed in a few months, or if SE brings out some more content. Remember what happened between final coil and 3.0?
    There is a stark difference between people unsubbing because there isn't enough content and people unsubbing from frustration and lack of progression. Yes, the game is lacking content, but, when it comes out people are more than happy to come back and run it a few times before it wears. When there is only one difficulty and your raid it's beyond the level of your players, they will just leave with a bad taste in their mouth and not bother coming back. There were plenty that left that didn't feel it was worth the time investment and frustration to push barely 3% on the boss after adding more gear to the mix.

    To add further to it. Many of your vocal minorities began a complaint train that caused many would be raiders to avoid or create self-imposed gates to even bother attempting, further diminishing the raid scene.

    I think Wildstar fits this bill pretty well. Even with the fair bit of content it had, higher difficulty did not lead to more concurrent subscriptions and their raid clear rates were hilariously bad. Once word got out many just stopped playing until the game went f2p.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    There is a stark difference between people unsubbing because there isn't enough content and people unsubbing from frustration and lack of progression.
    Ultimately from a business perspective, the only difference is when they subscribe. If in both cases people are unsubbing 2 months into a raid cycle because of finishing it, or 4 months out of frustration - then SE will choose the latter. Neither scenario is good, but evidently people come back for the next raid patch when frustrated. And remember, they both leave due to the same thing - lack of content. If there was another raid tier, people may not quit out of frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post

    Yes, the game is lacking content, but, when it comes out people are more than happy to come back and run it a few times before it wears. When there is only one difficulty and your raid it's beyond the level of your players, they will just leave with a bad taste in their mouth and not bother coming back. There were plenty that left that didn't feel it was worth the time investment and frustration to push barely 3% on the boss after adding more gear to the mix.

    To add further to it. Many of your vocal minorities began a complaint train that caused many would be raiders to avoid or create self-imposed gates to even bother attempting, further diminishing the raid scene.

    I think Wildstar fits this bill pretty well. Even with the fair bit of content it had, higher difficulty did not lead to more concurrent subscriptions and their raid clear rates were hilariously bad. Once word got out many just stopped playing until the game went f2p.
    Which comes down to lack of content. If they actually had a third raid difficulty, they would keep the majority of players. I don't have any experience with Wildstar, but didn't they fuck up their launch and never recover from that along with a large amount of bugs?

  8. #128
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    Without a doubt creator has been good to the raiding community. There are already PF groups clearing A11S and we are 4 weeks in. A12S won't be far off.

    I'm sure the JP servers are already PFing A12S. This is a good raid tier for growing the base.

    A solid Midas static of course is going to plow through this tier, but growing the base is more important. I also think a third tier is important, even if handled like 2nd Coil savage and release it later with capped gear in mind. ex. 3.5 Creator Super savage, tuned for i270. Dyeable gear, new mounts and titles.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    Was that in the live letter?
    Nah was in the public investor report, but I think they mentioned it kind of since it's already public knowledge now.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    Nah was in the public investor report, but I think they mentioned it kind of since it's already public knowledge now.
    And on Zam they claim that the budget has been "nearly tripled". Yet I've seen nothing about it in the official investor relations news.

    Probably someone is just spearing rumors to build up hype for the expansion among fans.

  11. #131

    yea I did some poking around in the jp site and I haven't seen any proof

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafa Nana View Post
    And on Zam they claim that the budget has been "nearly tripled". Yet I've seen nothing about it in the official investor relations news.

    Probably someone is just spearing rumors to build up hype for the expansion among fans.
    The figure I saw was closer to triple. 35mil. HW was 12.6. Still just a figure brought up by SE at fanfest and not from any official financial sources.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistaire View Post
    The figure I saw was closer to triple. 35mil. HW was 12.6. Still just a figure brought up by SE at fanfest and not from any official financial sources.
    I am super interested in a source on this if anyone knows of one


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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    Ultimately from a business perspective, the only difference is when they subscribe. If in both cases people are unsubbing 2 months into a raid cycle because of finishing it, or 4 months out of frustration - then SE will choose the latter. Neither scenario is good, but evidently people come back for the next raid patch when frustrated. And remember, they both leave due to the same thing - lack of content. If there was another raid tier, people may not quit out of frustration.
    Ultimately it comes to creating a third tier. The current raid design is obviously flawed.

    However when i refer to frustrated with lack of progression. Those customers are gone. From a business sense you can have a playerbase that plays 2 months out of each 3 month patch interval or take 4 consecutive months and lose them forever. In this case i'm certain most would opt for the former. Repeat customers are more useful to business planning.

  15. #135
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    I can definitely tell you that my first HW raid static straight up broke and all of the members except the RL friends quit because getting hard-walled by Living Liquid sucked. A lot of what made it suck was that there wasn't much progression after getting past hand of pain. It was either dying to adds exploding or not being able to figure out how to heal/tank through first rotation of final phase. Yeah, there was some git gud that needed to be done, but as soon as anyone had an excuse to get out of dying to literally the same phase part, they took it.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Ultimately it comes to creating a third tier. The current raid design is obviously flawed.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    However when i refer to frustrated with lack of progression. Those customers are gone. From a business sense you can have a playerbase that plays 2 months out of each 3 month patch interval or take 4 consecutive months and lose them forever. In this case i'm certain most would opt for the former. Repeat customers are more useful to business planning.
    What, so every person that got frustrated with the lack of progression and takes a break actually quits the game? Personally I've seen equal amounts of players quitting for each of those reasons, but that's anecdotal. I've also seen players taking breaks for those reasons too. Given that we don't really see a big community revitalisation during the odd numbered patches (that isn't aimed at the savage community), that we've got a large gap in content coming up AND how quick the community is getting through these fights, it worries me. It would worry me a lot less if they were planning a true Savage raid in 3.5.

    I think every time a player takes a break from the game, be it for delayed patches (during Gordias), lack of mid core content (Midas) and lack of Savage content (Creator), there will always be a chance a player comes back. A subscription based game should aspire to keep these players from burning out. I'm not saying its easy to manage it, but they shouldn't be content with being a part time game when using the subscription model.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipling View Post
    I am super interested in a source on this if anyone knows of one


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    Same, I don't remember them bringing up actual money #'s ever.

  18. #138

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistaire View Post
    The figure I saw was closer to triple. 35mil. HW was 12.6. Still just a figure brought up by SE at fanfest and not from any official financial sources.
    Brought up by SE when? Which panel? I attended pretty much everything at fanfest but I don't remember any figures stated.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    What, so every person that got frustrated with the lack of progression and takes a break actually quits the game?
    Unsurprisingly, yes. It's also a fairly easy case to support. Wildstar failed tremendously in it's raiding scene as there was a constant lack of progression and significant barriers of entry to even get into raiding. Customers just became frustrated and looked for something else that fit their needs/wants from a game. The customers only came back, if temporarily, when the game went f2p.

    The only difference between Wildstar and FF14 is that FF14 has an IP connected to it. This may bring people back in general due to goodwill of the brand, but, those who have been completely jaded and salted by the experience will likely never pick up the game for the same scenario as Wildstar.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by octopus View Post
    Brought up by SE when? Which panel? I attended pretty much everything at fanfest but I don't remember any figures stated.
    Yeah same. I went to everything


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