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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    Yoshida said somewhere that the 2nd job has something to do with spider webs.
    We're being duped here, it's not going to be a DoW or DoM class, it's going to be a gathering class.

  2. #342
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    FFXIV unique version of RDM... in other words the only thing that will be similar to previous versions of RDM will be the Artifact Armor. I dont mind when classes change, since each FF uses a different system, but neglecting like half part of what defines the job is bogus.

  3. #343
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    I mean, there really isn't a way to make RDM a perfect hybrid in the confines of the game's current design. RDM can't DPS well AND heal respectably without upsetting the role trifecta.

    You could make it a Healer role for DPS + Heal, but then people would definitely be more bummed by how RDM's damage would be on par with the "thematically" offensively weaker WHM/Healer type. Plus with a weapon like the rapier- and the focus on how RDMs are able to do swordplay + magic, I feel as though healer role would end up taking away too much from RDM's playstyle and feel.

    I think DPS role is the best outcome overall for RDM, and I don't mind if they had to tone down the white magic parts of it. The whole idea that RDM is supposed to be a duelist looking mage- that to me feels more like it'll fit at home as a DPS. I'm sure they'll still have some sort of "white magic" support abilities, but for sure it will play secondary to it's main DPS abilities as with the other DPS jobs.

    Honestly, the crystal acting as a sword > staff conduit is a really cool way of showcasing the duality of RDM's abilities. I really like it a lot.

    I think people talk about "this doesn't define the job" a lot when it comes to FFXIV- but honestly, I think letting tradition bog down on too much on what they're allowed to create would be a huge unneeded detriment. I think the meaning of "what defines a job" is constantly evolving? We can't always be stuck in the past games- I think there's a point where we have to move forward to allow for innovation and new ideas.

  4. #344
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    I'm more 'meh' about the fact that its a ranged casting job and not a melee casting job. Beyond all that its sexy as shit.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    Spider webs....webs...

    Strings...

    oh god it's puppetmaster
    Yay! Though seriously, I'd LOVE to see how they would work in a beastmaster / puppetmaster system. Probably wouldn't end well

  6. #346
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    Necromancer?!

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    Think you're thinking too outside the box with this. Its FFXIV, Its going to fit into a role that other classes have established. It'll either be a DD with some gimmick-but-not-really-useful thing that'll fill a role similar to MNK/NIN/etc, or it'll be a "Pure DPS" in the same way MCH and BRD are pure DPS.
    That's not what he's saying.

    In the current paradigm, magic DPS needs BRD for a damage boost, while slashing jobs need NIN/WAR, and piercing needs DRG.

    Therefore, in order for RDM to deal "full" damage, you would need both BRD and NIN/WAR in party. Meanwhile, the other casters only need BRD, BRD and MCH only need DRG, and the melee DPS are all self-sufficient.

    Then again, maybe RDM will get an equivalent to Foe's, and BRD can officially be obsolete. Who knows?

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I mean, there really isn't a way to make RDM a perfect hybrid in the confines of the game's current design. RDM can't DPS well AND heal respectably without upsetting the role trifecta.

    You could make it a Healer role for DPS + Heal, but then people would definitely be more bummed by how RDM's damage would be on par with the "thematically" offensively weaker WHM/Healer type. Plus with a weapon like the rapier- and the focus on how RDMs are able to do swordplay + magic, I feel as though healer role would end up taking away too much from RDM's playstyle and feel.

    I think DPS role is the best outcome overall for RDM, and I don't mind if they had to tone down the white magic parts of it. The whole idea that RDM is supposed to be a duelist looking mage- that to me feels more like it'll fit at home as a DPS. I'm sure they'll still have some sort of "white magic" support abilities, but for sure it will play secondary to it's main DPS abilities as with the other DPS jobs.

    Honestly, the crystal acting as a sword > staff conduit is a really cool way of showcasing the duality of RDM's abilities. I really like it a lot.

    I think people talk about "this doesn't define the job" a lot when it comes to FFXIV- but honestly, I think letting tradition bog down on too much on what they're allowed to create would be a huge unneeded detriment. I think the meaning of "what defines a job" is constantly evolving? We can't always be stuck in the past games- I think there's a point where we have to move forward to allow for innovation and new ideas.
    there are plenty of ways to make RDM a hybrid. They could have added 3 fixed crystal versions of the rapier.
    white crystals: granting you access to additional usefull cureing spells and altering your job abilitys turning you into a healer, while altering your blackmagic spells into protectiv barrier spells. When you queue up with the white crystal + rapier you are considered as a healer
    black crystal: granting you access to additional usefull black magic spells and altering your job abilitys to aid your role as ranged DPS. When queuing up with a black crystal + rapier you are considered ranged DPS
    red crystal: enhancing your close combat Weaponskills get stronger and additional ones become available, black magic spells and white magic spells turn into support spells granting refresh, regen, en-spells to boost dmg of magic dmg or physical dmg. when queuing as this role you are considered a close combat support DPS

    This is just a rough idea, but there is plenty of ways to incoroprate all of it. and since they have a way to stop equipment changes once you are inside of a dungeon i dont see a problem

  9. #349
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    Here's the issue with that though. Jobs can't change their role mid combat and jobs can't switch from DPS to Healer (Otherwise Arcanist should be easily able to do it pre-30). Its a limitation of the game based on how Jobs were designed from the get go. There's also another issue. What's to stop a Red Mage from queueing as a white crystal in say A12N and then swapping to a red crystal because they like it better? (Hint: WoW already has this issue).

    I watched a DIablo 3 GDC conference from 2013. A few things came out at me that explains why FFXIV's jobs aren't /that/ diverse.



    >Higher level of player customization = simpler combat mechanics and scenarios.



    If you apply this to FFXIV thinking then you can pull together a few things. Roles have defined features that will permeate between them. Between Healer's on demand cooldown heals. Tanks undeath cooldowns. Melee DPS having some sort of raid-wide utility. Ranged Casters able to supply extra defenses for tanks. And Ranged Physicals able to provide additional TP, MP, or boost a type of damage.

    Red Mage isn't going to do anything to break the casting mold. Its there to supply a fresh coat of paint for a position that is already substantially filled (In a standard 8 man raid we will have 3 classes vying for this one spot) that will bring some sort of idea of customization (You can pick between 3 classes for that one position now) and allow for some theory crafting on which class if better for which encounter.

  10. #350
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    I still wonder if we'll get specialisation at some point to make the jobs more interesting. RDM in xiv isn't going to be as interesting as it has been in previous games, it can't be. They won't let it. I want things to be different and for them to ease up on the control of roles but they won't budge right now.

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiye View Post
    Here's the issue with that though. Jobs can't change their role mid combat and jobs can't switch from DPS to Healer (Otherwise Arcanist should be easily able to do it pre-30). Its a limitation of the game based on how Jobs were designed from the get go. There's also another issue. What's to stop a Red Mage from queueing as a white crystal in say A12N and then swapping to a red crystal because they like it better? (Hint: WoW already has this issue).
    You cant switch roles once you sign up. if you sign up as red mage healer you have to go as red mage healer. Just like currently queueing doesnt let you change jobs. I really dont see the big issue there and equipment restriction during dungeons/raids were allready there before and can be easily applied to the crystal. The possibility is there, the developers are just lazy because it basicly means they have to put more effort and work into rdm.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldelphia View Post
    I still wonder if we'll get specialisation at some point to make the jobs more interesting. RDM in xiv isn't going to be as interesting as it has been in previous games, it can't be. They won't let it. I want things to be different and for them to ease up on the control of roles but they won't budge right now.
    Never going to happen. Yoshida is deathly allergic to player choice and "complicated" stats/trees. Spec trees, interesting stats on gear, etc. won't ever be a thing. I mean fuck, they're likely removing 2 of the 6 secondary stats that exist in the game, should go a long way in showing that their priorities are not in creating build/job diversity but instead they're attempting to focus on battle and environmental diversity (also largely unsuccessful so far, but better at least).

  13. #353
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    The people who play this game cannot handle anything more complicated than one or two rotations. Fuck there are warriors that think BB OT with berserk up is perfectly okay and then wonder why they ride the ass of their MT who isn't in tank stance not giving a fuck about enmity combos.

  14. #354
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    I dunno Damane. This sounds an awful lot like how Arcanist ended up being able to be a DPS role SMN and a healer role SCH.

    We all know how much they hated how it turned out, because they couldn't balance one without influencing the other due to their source Arcanist class. Not to mention people WILL find it unfair how leveling RDM would give them access to several roles in the time to level one job. Unless they decide to do a huge overhaul, I just don't see RDM being able to fill several roles whenever it chooses to, even if it locked in combat.

    Programing wise, I'm sure it'd also be a bit of a logistic nightmare as they'd have to figure out HOW to keep RDM from switching roles in a dungeon or fight while not being engaged with an enemy- AST for example, can switch between Diurnal-Noct between pulls, but how would you tell the game "Hey, RDM isn't allowed to change stances... even though there aren't any enemies aggro'd and if this was the outside, you would be able to change. Because we're in a dungeon/instance...?" It sounds like a lot of dedicated, selfish resource directing all for just -one- job.

    _____

    I really don't blame Yoshida for keeping the stat stuff simple- because all it would do is further increase the disparity between skilled and casual players alike. You also run into a huge problem with "Hey, are you this build? If you're not, we're not letting you join sorry." ONTOP of the already encouraged diversified party role setup they try to make you do. Then what do you if certain stat/skill trees work better in different relevant fights? Do you skill/stat reset every single time to maintain 100% efficiency? Does leveling an alt become a mandatory affair to have a diverse set of skills for different situations?

    There's just such a mess, which isn't caused by the idea, but by people's need to always have the best results. It's all about cold, logistical efficiency because why wouldn't you want the best way of doing it? There are many times on this forum where I see "You either do it this way or you're fucking terrible, you have no common sense and you should feel like shit for doing otherwise", and I feel that's the exact disaster that Yoshida is trying to avoid.

    And let's be honest- NO ONE HERE is going to go out of their way to actually help someone who's having trouble with their job even if they have the information. No one. We're pretty fucking selfish really, haha.

    Someone here mentioned that FFXIV is like MMO comfort food- I agree. I like that I don't have to "think" too much on the stat numbers and it's more about how I play the job. Because once it starts getting too complex like FFXI's macro equip system where I have to micro-manage every damn ability/obscure damage scenario, I'm fucking out, lol.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I dunno Damane. This sounds an awful lot like how Arcanist ended up being able to be a DPS role SMN and a healer role SCH.

    We all know how much they hated how it turned out, because they couldn't balance one without influencing the other due to their source Arcanist class. Not to mention people WILL find it unfair how leveling RDM would give them access to several roles in the time to level one job. Unless they decide to do a huge overhaul, I just don't see RDM being able to fill several roles whenever it chooses to, even if it locked in combat.

    Programing wise, I'm sure it'd also be a bit of a logistic nightmare as they'd have to figure out HOW to keep RDM from switching roles in a dungeon or fight while not being engaged with an enemy- AST for example, can switch between Diurnal-Noct between pulls, but how would you tell the game "Hey, RDM isn't allowed to change stances... even though there aren't any enemies aggro'd and if this was the outside, you would be able to change. Because we're in a dungeon/instance...?" It sounds like a lot of dedicated, selfish resource directing all for just -one- job.

    _____

    I really don't blame Yoshida for keeping the stat stuff simple- because all it would do is further increase the disparity between skilled and casual players alike. You also run into a huge problem with "Hey, are you this build? If you're not, we're not letting you join sorry." ONTOP of the already encouraged diversified party role setup they try to make you do. Then what do you if certain stat/skill trees work better in different relevant fights? Do you skill/stat reset every single time to maintain 100% efficiency? Does leveling an alt become a mandatory affair to have a diverse set of skills for different situations?

    There's just such a mess, which isn't caused by the idea, but by people's need to always have the best results. It's all about cold, logistical efficiency because why wouldn't you want the best way of doing it? There are many times on this forum where I see "You either do it this way or you're fucking terrible, you have no common sense and you should feel like shit for doing otherwise", and I feel that's the exact disaster that Yoshida is trying to avoid.

    Someone here mentioned that FFXIV is like MMO comfort food- I agree. I like that I don't have to "think" too much on the stat numbers and it's more about how I play the job. Because once it starts getting too complex like FFXI's macro equip system where I have to micro-manage every damn ability/obscure damage scenario, I'm fucking out, lol.
    hence the reason the role is tied to the equiped crystal RDM has. Unabling to swap it as soon as you enter a duty. Whats so bad about leveling one job and then having the diversity to pick which role of the job you want to be tied to for the current duty ahead. It actually would maybe even help Raid groups that lack one of the roles for a particular night when a member is missing and add flexibility. i get they dont want stance swaping in fear of overpowering a job. i am fine, thats still not an excuse to diverse the job in other ways as explained. They could have done the same with DRK allowing it to be either a Tank or full fledged DPS

  16. #356
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    If the second job is a tank its gotta be BST (spider) or SAM, We all know there will only be one "tank" set for Tomes/Savage and those are the two jobs that would look correctly in heavy armor.

    BST could be done a 1000 different ways as a tank and wouldn't even need to be a true pet job.

  17. #357
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    Hell I wouldn't even mind PSO2's summoner as a type of tank..but then again even that's too complicated for the (targeted) FFXIV playerbase. As much as I love blu, I wouldn't want them to add it ...neither PUP because PUP from XI alone is "too complicated" for this game. I like PUP but they don't want this game to make players "think" or "use their head" which is why I think people overestimate RDM.

    Remember MCH and how majority of the promises never came true and in reality ended up being one of the worst jobs (early on) to ever come out due to trying to make it "complex"? Well I shouldn't say "didn't come true" more like yoshida is good with words on making you think one thing when he really means something else.

  18. #358
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    BLU could easily work. Instead of having a collection of spells you go out and collect you'll learn them as you do your job quests. Some sort of monster hunter kind of quests (Go to X and fight monster y to gain an ability).

    To be fair all 3 HW jobs didn't fare off to well. Only DRK really got much of a chance because Goridas was overtuned and magic damage central and PLD wasn't in a great spot to start with. I'm going to start off with DRG from 60 to 70 and maybe dabble in the other job if its worthwhile.

    Random musings. But I think the next job will be based around STR.

    Vit has 3 - PLD, WAR, DRK
    MND has 3 - WHM, SCH, AST
    DEX has 3 - BRD, NIN, and MCH.
    INT has 3 with stormblood. - BLM, SMN, and RDM
    STR has 2 - DRG and MNK.

    Samurai is probably going to be DPS lol.

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiye View Post
    Random musings. But I think the next job will be based around STR.

    Vit has 3 - PLD, WAR, DRK
    MND has 3 - WHM, SCH, AST
    DEX has 3 - BRD, NIN, and MCH.
    INT has 3 with stormblood. - BLM, SMN, and RDM
    STR has 2 - DRG and MNK.

    Samurai is probably going to be DPS lol.
    Tanks are STR/VIT.

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hioki View Post
    Tanks are STR/VIT.
    Technically, but it's main stat is VIT.

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