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  1. #101
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    Yeah but wasn't it so much fun and perfect farming 200 Kaggen's to get that body piece? Nothing ever went wrong and the experience was always superb.

  2. #102

    It leaves me with the question of how a FTP kick-started game can tackle these challenges in a shorter amount of time than an established developer who already had successful experience in the MMO market.
    Honestly say it's a flaw of the P2P model. They already get money, that says what they're doing is good enough. Meanwhile, the F2P types don't really have that luxury. They need to do a good job to not only get that initial revenue, but to keep it coming. Otherwise, there are various psychological traps to P2P. Some rationalize it's only a couple days' worth of lunch, so no biggie if quality slips here and there. People want to believe their investment is worth it, so they'll put up with some undesired elements. Putting a 30 day timer on your access can pressure one to play more than they might really want to. Friends coming and going on uneven cycles can further affect morale. So, while people may be even more free to come and go in F2P titles, it truly is at their own whim. Be it a week, 3 months, half a year, doesn't matter. There's no barrier of entry and the only real pressure they may face is a feeling of how behind they might be, but that's an issue that exists in P2P games, too.

    Anyway, it all goes back to the F2P devs being hungrier. They can't just sit back and let a major patch here and there hope to keep things together. Whales help, sure, but it behooves them impress even the lighter spenders to encourage that coin, and certainly that means solving problems and giving players the things they want within reason. And while it isn't the case for all providers, what money they do generate is at least more likely to go back to the game. In SE's case, well, look at all the shit they make and sponsor. XIV hasn't benefited from that financial leeching, just as XI suffered to XIV's creation.

    Basically, stuff's been trending toward F2P of crowd-sourcing for a reason. Both devs and players have been seeing the benefit, while companies like SE and Blizzard are more the exception the changing rule. Why XI hasn't gone F2P, among other needed things like server merges, is one of those things where people might wonder if SE is just greedy, a bunch of idiots, or maybe both. Yeah, you'll have players argue against both moves, but the root of such tends to be they don't want to be inconvenienced, be it with name changes, congestion, or whatever issues that are technically within SE's power to solve if they tried.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shenrien View Post
    Yeah but wasn't it so much fun and perfect farming 200 Kaggen's to get that body piece? Nothing ever went wrong and the experience was always superb.
    Gr8 strawman m8.

    Nothing is perfect and no one is suggesting otherwise. speaking highly of something doesn't mean I don't believe it has its flaws... finding enjoyment in something doesn't imply perfection. But i'd weigh the fact I did 500+ Pil fights and never got a Tocl harness a more fun than almost any event in XIV (I'm a sucker for triple triad). Doesn't mean I liked VW, I fucking hated their logic on drop rate and approach to "repeat" drops, among various other things wrong with voidwatch.

  4. #104
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    Oh man, I didn't realise the "perfect balance" thing was a deliberate design decision. In many ways that seems worse than accidental incompetence. At least if it wasn't policy there was a chance they'd fix it if enough people asked.

    I guess it was obvious that this was their approach once you start to bring up examples where they stamped out any methods the player-base used to clear content that the devs hadn't foreseen. They even were like this in XI over certain things like Absolute Virtue. It's weird though as they were quite accepting of ninja being used as a tank and not a DPS back then.

    I wonder why they began to shun emergent game-play...



    Players creating or discovering ways of playing a dev didn't have to specifically code-in is, for many, a design holy grail. Solving challenges in unexpected ways means the players are engaged by your game-systems enough to use everything you give them... Personally I'd embrace such things unless they were genuine cases of broken-ness.

    Edit: Thinking about it, they're starting to come across as similar to an abusive DM!

    "Play the campaign the way I want it to go!". It's a strange thing to try and micro-manage the player by having a strangling grip on what they are allowed to do...

  5. #105
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    I don't understand what's hard to understand about wanting more gameplay options.

    I've told this story before, but one of the only times I did anything I would liken to a XI experience in XIV was when I ran Pharos Sirius HM through DF when it was new and our shitty PLD dropped after the first boss. Me (AST), the DRG and BLM sat around for about 20mins waiting for a rep before I goaded them into trying to clear it without a tank. And then something amazing happened.

    Suddenly, the game wasn't just a play-by-rote dance, it was a dance where we had to make up the steps as we went along. We had to be creative. Most of all, we had to be really GOOD, because doing a brand new dungeon without a tank meant that most of the time the mobs were bouncing around between the squishy DPS, the less-squishy DPS, and the healer. We had to figure out how to pull them, how to sneak around, how to best utilize our skills in ways they weren't normally used. The timing of the "dance" was different, the execution was different, and it was an experience none of us would have ever had if DF was "working as intended" at the time. We cleared the dungeon, although it was really down to the wire we felt SO good about ourselves afterward, and it still stands out as the most fun I've had in XIV.

    When you play a game on rails, when your skills and your triumphs are never a surprise to you because there's only one way to do something, it becomes about fulfilling a duty rather than having fun. XIV's current system - unless you put false restrictions on yourself/your party - doesn't allow for any of that, because the battle system is set up just so. If you have the right setup and your party members are at least decent, you will get through the duty, but it won't necessarily be fun, or interesting, or anything different from usual, because there is no room for creativity, or alternate builds, or surprises. Like Aleth said up there, everyone does the same job with the same skills with the same stats on their gear. I know I can clear Dungeon X with my eyes closed, I've done it a hundred times (sometimes literally), but I can also wipe my ass with my eyes closed because I've done it a hundred times, and there's really very little difference in the sense of accomplishment I get from those two experiences.

  6. #106
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    Duoing / Trioing content for full parties and alliances in FFXI was so good (75 cap era, before they removed level restrictions on stuff).

    Smash the meta! Gamers don't want to be treated like sheep!

  7. #107
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    I'm all for meaningful decisions, but give some actual examples of them that are engaging and worthwhile, not stuff that is ultimately not going to matter beyond a second thought outside of combat. 
    I'd like to see bosses with a TP bar a players with abilities to impede or drain the bar. TP works similar to how players go through abilities and rotation, bosses work freely around how much tp they have at execution points. You can choose how much tp you can "feed" or "deny" to control the flow of a fight through player abilites.

  8. #108

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    If it requires extensive use of the brain.. people don't want it.

  9. #109

    Yeah, I know it's been brought up, but I'm not really a fan of the mega scripting XIV goes through with its fights, either. On the other hand, XI's style of anything goes, barring possible limitations like HP% or other non-permanent states isn't really the route I'd want to revisit, either. So, to run with mobs needing their own TP, I'd also add the caveat that more devastating abilities get cooldowns to run alongside them. Rate of TP gain may be a cooldown of its own, but it's mainly to stop scenarios like in XI with Fafhogg just spamming Hurricane Wing to the exclusion of all else. A solid party might be able to work through it, but once you start straying from any sort of potential intended design, things would certainly fall off the rails.

    Pragmatically, I think this somewhat emphasizes the flaws of enmity systems, as well. They're truly a mechanical addition we've seen added solely to make tanking more convenient. As PvPers may attest, a lot of the time the focused target of the enemy should be the healers and other support, but we wind up with our PvE stuff coded so a few flashy abilities make the tank a more tempting target. This may be all well and good if we're fighting a seemingly primitive creature, but the logic of it kinda goes out the window if it's supposed to be something sentient. That said, I do wish boss encounters would "learn" how to fight varied party set ups as they go along. Lots of ranged damage? Start running around to take advantage of environmental cover/line of sight, and if someone gets separated from the group giving chase, pounce their ass. Discover that a specific character is consistently exploiting some form of weakness? They should become a target priority. What the mob is and where you fight them would definitely be big factors here, which certainly doesn't play nice with the bland circular arenas we get here. Obviously, what moves they pull out would further depend on the mob itself.

    To build on that, I further find myself reminded of Valkyrie Profile 2 and how you could break parts off your foes. I guess the Monster Hunter line of games has had similar, but I've never played them. Anyway, this would both affect drops at the end of the fight, but also influence moves they could or couldn't use. A lot of the time is was just a matter of attacking from a specific position and hoping for enough damage/critical hits, but variations could be added like using specific elements, doing something in an order (like rapidly heating and cooling metal to increase fragility), or trying to force something like stagger states where a particular part is exposed for that duration (like go for a giant's leg to get it to trip/kneel, then whack its heart). And while ideal strategies may come about in these encounters, they should never technically be impossible for an otherwise intelligently thought out group. And I guess that'd also dictate the elimination of auto-homing projectiles for both player and monster alike. Make aiming/dodging matter, and not just get out of the red or your dead sense. And if we ran with my earlier suggested auto-combo system, abilities could further be honed to facilitate break statuses or exploiting weaknesses. This further adds potential class variety since while two DPS may do the exact same number, one may better enable the rest of the party to do their thing while the other wrecks it when that time comes. More balanced parties would still work, they'd just need to know to use the right combo set and TP moves at the right times.

    But I babble. -.-

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    To build on that, I further find myself reminded of Valkyrie Profile 2 and how you could break parts off your foes. I guess the Monster Hunter line of games has had similar, but I've never played them. Anyway, this would both affect drops at the end of the fight, but also influence moves they could or couldn't use. A lot of the time is was just a matter of attacking from a specific position and hoping for enough damage/critical hits, but variations could be added like using specific elements, doing something in an order (like rapidly heating and cooling metal to increase fragility), or trying to force something like stagger states where a particular part is exposed for that duration (like go for a giant's leg to get it to trip/kneel, then whack its heart). And while ideal strategies may come about in these encounters, they should never technically be impossible for an otherwise intelligently thought out group.
    I suspect that if we ever got battle regimens back or skillchains in XIV that they would be implemented in breaking or destroying body pieces through Scission, Impaction, Reverberation, Compression, Detonation etc. We already break the occasional piece off in game as is. ex. A11S, Tam-tara. I could imagine implementation would be through a similar system as an old WoW rouge combo system where you just build elements on the boss from abilities and let them explode after a time. Give players an adrenaline bar that builds up over time and a toggle ability to "use up" adrenaline to add an element on a finisher. Doesn't matter the order, just that you have enough of the element in "combo points". Casual enough that it's thoughtless but can be used in some useful fashion for endgame raiders.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    To build on that, I further find myself reminded of Valkyrie Profile 2 and how you could break parts off your foes. I guess the Monster Hunter line of games has had similar, but I've never played them. Anyway, this would both affect drops at the end of the fight, but also influence moves they could or couldn't use.
    This exact thing already existed in early 1.x.

  12. #112

    PC couldn't handle 1.x, so wouldn't have known. :/

  13. #113
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    I'd honestly just be happy if they changed the way the capped tomes worked slightly, like, instead of it resetting to 0/450 each week, make the first weeks cap 450, and just increase the cap instead of resetting the points earned.

    Example - Week 1 - 0/450 > 450/450
    Week 2 - 450/900 > 900/900

    ends up adding up to the same amount of tomes in the end, but it gives me leeway when there's 2 weeks in a row I can't play at all, but on the third week I have tons of time to play and can grind out 1000+ tomes to catch up D:

  14. #114
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    At at least a two week grace period would be nice.

  15. #115
    Ara Ara...
    I used to have shit taste in anime until I took and Uryuu to the knee.

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    With how much of a joke the most recent raid tier was, tomes actually don't matter at all. We cleared every fight before having enough tomes to really buy anything worthwhile. You can clear the entire tier in crafted gear and don't need Sophia EX weapons.

    I assume this is how it will be in the future, because casual players can't handle rotations while doing mechanics. Now SE is just telling them to do mechanics and DPS when they get around to it with this current tier's tuning.

    Here's hoping we get hard content back sometime in the future.

  16. #116

    Eh, I do think taking the importance of gear away from raiding is overall to the genre's benefit, and that's not just me wanting to provide alternative sources for people who want to gear up well and dislike/can't reliably partake in raiding. If you stop and think about it, it's just doing the hardest content to get gear to make said content easier after you've already beaten it multiple times. Which just feels a bit backward. And if the resulting thought is no one would raid without those carrots, is it content people actually find fun to do? Because if it's not, I'd say we're staring at a significant design problem that's been perpetuating way too long through the WoW-like line of MMOs, imo.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Eh, I do think taking the importance of gear away from raiding is overall to the genre's benefit, and that's not just me wanting to provide alternative sources for people who want to gear up well and dislike/can't reliably partake in raiding. If you stop and think about it, it's just doing the hardest content to get gear to make said content easier after you've already beaten it multiple times. Which just feels a bit backward. And if the resulting thought is no one would raid without those carrots, is it content people actually find fun to do? Because if it's not, I'd say we're staring at a significant design problem that's been perpetuating way too long through the WoW-like line of MMOs, imo.
    I'm the kind of person who doesn't raid for gear, only for a challenge. I would raid even if all we got was a title or a mount. Things like Savage Second Coil appeal to me because they are about the challenge and gear wasn't any different. I'm not complaining that gear is useless, I am saying that this tier is such a joke it's almost like a pandering apology to the casual playerbase from Yoshida himself.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    And if the resulting thought is no one would raid without those carrots, is it content people actually find fun to do? Because if it's not, I'd say we're staring at a significant design problem that's been perpetuating way too long through the WoW-like line of MMOs, imo.
    This. The game-play needs to be fun enough to be rewarding in itself. Too many games rely on rewards to tempt players to spend time doing tasks that aren't actually any fun (or to repeat them even once the fun has long gone.)

    I think a lot of the raids and dungeons in XIV are interesting enough the first time but the combat system means that there's next to zero replay value once you've succeeded a couple of times.

    I think there was a mass exodus of players before HW release when players found themselves running the same content over and over. I don't see the game making the huge changes required to its very foundations that would be required to get them back.

    The rebooted XIV painted itself as a "grinder mmo - now with a cosmetics cash-shop(!)" early on. Perhaps an unfair label but at this point it will struggle to change that perception - one that is likely to taint any future SE MMO projects too, much like the customer service of their last MMO did.

  19. #119
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    Details of how to purchase livestream for Tokyo Fanfest here
    NA: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...abe5faf882f0a2
    EU: http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...6f43af2a9246e7

    Fan Festival 2016 in Tokyo Stage Schedule

    Day 1

    Dec. 23rd 5:00 p.m. (PST): Opening Showcase (Only available live)
    Dec. 23rd 5:30 p.m. (PST): Keynote
    Dec. 23rd 7:30 p.m. (PST): Ultima Quiz Returns
    Dec. 23rd 9:00 p.m. (PST): Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XXXIV
    Dec. 23rd 11:00 p.m. (PST): Costume Contest
    Dec. 24th 1:30 a.m. (PST): Special Concert (Piano)
    Day 2

    Dec. 24th 5:00 p.m. (PST): Opening Showcase
    Dec. 24th 5:30 p.m. (PST): Welcome to Naoki’s Room
    Dec. 24th 7:45 p.m. (PST): Costume Runway
    Dec. 24th 8:30 p.m. (PST): Dev. Panel
    Dec. 24th 10:00 p.m. (PST): Adrenaline Rush TV PvP Tournament
    Dec. 25th 2:00 a.m. (PST): Special Concert (THE PRIMALS)

    EU

    Fan Festival 2016 in Tokyo Stage Schedule

    Day 1
    Saturday, December 24, 2016

    1:00 (GMT): Opening Showcase (Only available live)
    1:30 (GMT): Keynote
    3:30 (GMT): Ultima Quiz Returns
    5:00 (GMT): Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XXXIV
    7:00 (GMT): Costume Contest
    9:30 (GMT): Special Concert (Piano)
    Day 2
    Sunday, December 25, 2016

    1:00 (GMT): Opening Showcase
    1:30 (GMT): Welcome to Naoki’s Room
    3:45 (GMT): Costume Runway
    4:30 (GMT): Dev. Panel
    6:00 (GMT): Adrenaline Rush TV PvP Tournament
    10:00 (GMT): Special Concert (THE PRIMALS)

  20. #120
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    I won't be awake for the keynote but I'm sure there are plenty of BG and beyond peeps posting. I look forward to finding out all about RDM...

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