EVO 2017 - Where everyone is not playing SFV

[Weltall]

[IMG]jimmes[/IMG]

Fuggin LOL

[Deejay]

I see both sides. Spider-Dan isn't wrong for calling yall out on the hypocrisy.

With that said, footsies are inherently different in SF vs Tekken. In SF, I need my button to come out immediately when I'm whiff punishing a 7 frame normal that is only active for 3 frames and recovers in another 6. The window for executing moves that can greatly turn the tide of a match is a lot smaller in Street Fighter. Fundamentally, you NEED your shit to come out quickly or it feels like you're playing underwater. Street Fighter with a 7 frame input delay isn't Street Fighter anymore.

If the NFL and NHL both removed helmets from their sport, both games would become more violent for the player. However, the removal of said helmet would fundamentally change the way football is played. The change in play would be way less noticeable in Hockey than it would be in Football.

The same can be said of the 7 frame delay in SF vs Tekken

[Weltall]

Damn, excellent way to put that Deejay.

[Lucavi]

If SD said those exact words, you'd have shat all over them, Welt. Don't start nodding your head with reading glasses on now that its Deejay.

[Xno Kappa]

Pretty much.


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[Weltall]

If SD said those exact words, you'd have shat all over them, Welt. Don't start nodding your head with reading glasses on now that its Deejay.

If you knew the first thing about these games or these threads, you would know damn well that Deejay and I have been on opposite ends of like 90+% of the arguments going back to circa 2009. We rarely see eye-to-see or get along, and I'm positive he would back me on this lol.

The same thing goes for JCVD. When he showed up here, I called out almost everything he said as idiotic. But when someone is right, they are right. JVCD has been on point about SFV since the beta.

[Deejay]

Yeah, me and Welt have had some pretty epic back and forths. Can't believe it's been that long lol

[Xno Kappa]

Still waiting on that money match...


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[Deejay]

He keeps dodging CEO. I would've went to Evo this year if I wasn't so unhappy with SFV. However it probably wouldn't be a great match because I tried picking SFIV back up and my Dudley is ass now.

[Weltall]

We have played plenty of times post arguing on here.

Edit: I may actually go to CEO in 2018 only because one of my best friends owns a hotel in Daytona, and I've been turning down a free room from him to visit for years. I uninstalled SFV a long ass time ago, so playing today would be kind of pointless. Also, I have absolutely no interest in EVO since SFV took over. Skipped last year, after paying for it, and didn't even consider attending this year.

[Xno Kappa]

Makes me miss my SFIV Rose. God damn that character was a lot of fun and the instant "hurrdurr shes broken" when luffy won evo was glorious. Even more glorious then when Gen was considered broken lmao.


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[Moridam]

i feel like i missed the 'gen is broken' consensus, i don't think he was on the radar at all until xian took CC in 2012. did it just quickly evolve into 'actually, xian is broken'?

[Weltall]

He could do a lot of damage off a single confirm, which very few characters had in that iteration of the game. He needed Super+Ultra to do it, but getting to that was easy. He was mostly considered broken because a lot of his wall setups were unblockables or near-unblockables. This was changed in Ultra and that's why, even when Xian picked him, you rarely ever saw him doing wall shenanigans ever again.

[Moridam]

yeah that's fair enough, i honestly forgot about the wall nonsense. realistically though that was more the brokenness of unblockable/1f block setups in general, and gen was hardly alone there.

[Spider-Dan]

With that said, footsies are inherently different in SF vs Tekken. In SF, I need my button to come out immediately when I'm whiff punishing a 7 frame normal that is only active for 3 frames and recovers in another 6. The window for executing moves that can greatly turn the tide of a match is a lot smaller in Street Fighter. Fundamentally, you NEED your shit to come out quickly or it feels like you're playing underwater. Street Fighter with a 7 frame input delay isn't Street Fighter anymore.

While this analysis applies to offense, a 7 frame input delay affects blocking, too. So a 50/50-based game like Tekken (where blocking is much more difficult) still suffers because it's harder to react and block in time.

Just to make this clear: I think it's smart of Harada to (try to) use input lag as a buffer to normalize online play, especially since his game has some leeway to adjust startup frames to counteract it. But I also thought it was a good idea* for Capcom to (try to) design SF5 along the same principles: more input lag, slower attacks, and more reads. Lots of people (in this thread, even!) praise 3S for many of the same principles that are on display in SF5, but those people weren't around when SF3 came out and the FGC back then bashed it for the exact same reasons. So I'm just saying: have some consistency. Don't ask for rushdown games that eliminate setplay and then complain when you are left with an all-offense-no-defense game that emphasizes read after read after read. If you don't know what to ask for, you can't expect to get what you want.

* where "good idea" = giving people what they claim to want: better online gameplay, more offense, less setplay

[Lokus]

3:25 is where JCDR starts talking about how Tekken 7s input lag affects him.

[Deejay]

While this analysis applies to offense, a 7 frame input delay affects blocking, too. So a 50/50-based game like Tekken (where blocking is much more difficult) still suffers because it's harder to react and block in time.

Just to make this clear: I think it's smart of Harada to (try to) use input lag as a buffer to normalize online play, especially since his game has some leeway to adjust startup frames to counteract it. But I also thought it was a good idea* for Capcom to (try to) design SF5 along the same principles: more input lag, slower attacks, and more reads. Lots of people (in this thread, even!) praise 3S for many of the same principles that are on display in SF5, but those people weren't around when SF3 came out and the FGC back then bashed it for the exact same reasons. So I'm just saying: have some consistency. Don't ask for rushdown games that eliminate setplay and then complain when you are left with an all-offense-no-defense game that emphasizes read after read after read. If you don't know what to ask for, you can't expect to get what you want.

* where "good idea" = giving people what they claim to want: better online gameplay, more offense, less setplay

I'm pretty sure no one thought they would have to sacrifice neutral play to get better rush down. 3S relied heavily on reads over set play but you could still run through people with Chun Li or Ken simply by playing smart neutral. We've talked about this before but that simply isn't a viable option for anyone besides Punk. The game is starting to materialize in a way where basic level footsies are becoming a thing, but this shit is still terrible.

[Spider-Dan]

3S relied heavily on reads over set play but you could still run through people with Chun Li or Ken simply by playing smart neutral.

CKY players aren't winning matches in 3S because they are playing "smart neutral." They are winning because their reads (with advantage) convert to easy, large damage.

It's like saying that SF5 is just fine because S1 Mika or S2 Balrog players have "smart neutral." Their neutral isn't smarter, it's just tilted in their favor and leads to huge damage.

[Deejay]

Oh, I'm sorry I must have missed the part where Mika and Balrog were doing 1 hit Super confirms. Silly me

[Spider-Dan]

Chun and Ken can link supers on confirm on a ton of normals, so I'm not sure why "1-hit Super confirm" would impress anyone.
That isn't even a read. That is straight-up "oh, I hit, free extra damage".... just like Mika and Balrog.