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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimmauk View Post
    I've been barely playing for a year, so the game is still new to me, but I'm wondering what other mmo games are as good or better?
    I've heard Black Desert is fun, and there are some promising-looking Chinese and Korean MMOs on the horizon but it's basically all the same shit. Ho-hum overarching story, endless insipid quests from NPCs who you'll never remember 5 minutes later, communities that barely try to play together outside of guilds made up of RL friends, P2W or all the good stuff is in the cash shop. Nearly all MMOs have gone the way of casual play now which requires them to dumb down everything and make it all soloable up to a certain point. You might as well just find some really good solo RPGs to play.

  2. #62
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    I hear FFXV is good kappa.

  3. #63
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    I've just given up on mmorpgs again instead of continuing the mmo hopping game every few months to the "next big thing." Every mmo now is just korean grindfest, WoW-clone, pvp endgame (I know there are people that like pvp, but it is 100% not me), or some combination of these things. All of these have just become so repetitive and boring that I can't continue in this genre anymore. The time I can last in mmos now before I end up feeling like it is a second job has just become less and less as time goes on and I guess I've just grown out of this genre.

    I do wish I could continue though, playing mmos is definitely much cheaper than buying single player games, but at least I have a lot backlogged from my years of mmo addiction.

  4. #64
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    I've always told myself xiv is the last mmo I'll invest in. It's fun, gets boring, then fun, then boring but interactions with old friends and new ones make it worthwhile. That would be the hardest part to give up.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destinye View Post
    Yep. I wonder if that "dramatically overhauled" update to diadem is just separating DoL/DoM(W) and forcing you to clear all objectives before you can actually get nice stuff. I mean sure you should want to clear objectives, but the fact it's now tied to rewards beyond tomes kinda leads me to believe it's forced now, since they don't make changes in XIV in terms of supplementing, something either has to go or be changed.
    Well, the whole premise of it was copy paste stuff from other parts of the game, make a new map and a new way of unlocking it.

    They will likely put it all on rails to prevent mob grinding.

    Honestly, the premise of having something like that which offered relevent gear rewards and be about exploration would have been fantastic. The problems were (imo):

    1) The content in there was faceroll and fucking boring. Make the content (at least in hard mode) engaging. Keep the grinding for easy/normal mode, make hard mode actually difficult but give rewards more often.
    2) Gear rewards were BiS. Having aetherial multi statted RNG items was bad. They should simply have been alternative stats to current BiS gear.
    3) There needed to be seperate queues for Gathering and Battle classes
    4) The rewards for Gathering (i.e. chest drops) and completing quests as a gathering class or battle class was horrible. There were a lack of quests to spawn S ranks. And don't make it all about grinding mobs over and over again in Hard mode.
    5) Having hoards of people made the faceroll content even more faceroll. Make it alliance based.
    6) A larger pool of S rank mobs.

    Add in a few weekly quests for doing it and you'd find people going in weekly or during off hours. Make the content engaging and the rewards decent and people will go back to it.

    But SE refuse to hire more devs to make engaging content, and Yoshi-P seems to dislike making engaging content - moreso after the crying about Gordias and Midas Savage.

  6. #66
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    I wouldn't call Gordias nor Midas "engaging".

    They were difficult. But it was the same song and dance brought up by difficult DPS and even gear checks. Same formula. Same obnoxious static-driven system. The raid finder hasn't really been used nor has any real incentive been given to step away from statics. The game is suffering because they pack everything into 4 raids and that's it. If we had more shit to do, there would be a reason to spread it out some, difficulty could be spread out and more people would be doing more, different things. But no. Let's make sure they do this same repetitive difficult shit forever until they get sick of it and unsubscribe. And don't get me started on "raids" being nothing more than 1 boss encounter.

    And then there's Creator. Which people cleared in a fucking week (less?). There is no middle ground anymore. It's either too easy or too difficult. Which would be fine. If there were more than 4 raids. Do you see a recurring issue here? lol Yoshida is literally fucking all over the place partly due to his catering to everyone's opinions about the content. They don't create content how they want it anymore. It's to please everyone else. And it shows. He doesn't have the drive left in him to just create and work on a game he enjoys. It's become pandering to every whim of the community that seem unsure of what they even want. It just leaves them the same way. They have no idea what they actually want to do with the game anymore and thus, it continues to be the same shit because there's little to no motivation or drive to do different. They've potentially sat for so long thinking that "if we only had X resource we could do Y" to the point that they don't even bother trying. I feel like that's where a lot of these false promises came from. I feel like that's where all the ideas that we never saw, primal summons, free company unions, etc..went. Into development hell.

    Then again I suppose you weren't really calling gordias/midas engaging anyway, but fuck it's easy to rant about this game now. Only when posting here do I realize how salty I am about it. In short: I agree. Hire more people. Yoshida's thinktank is dead. People idolize him for "saving" the game, but fail to realize he's not helping anymore. Mayhaps it's a lack of funding, people that can do the work, but I find that hard to believe when they're churning out title after title alongside this while we eat the same bowl of dog food for 3 years. It'd be nice if now that XV, WoFF are done, that we'd pull some of those people back and have a larger team to bolster what this game is. They're busy using members of the already tiny team to create lore books, work on other games.. And I love the lore book and stuff, but at some point I found myself asking, couldn't the time and resources have gone into making the game better?

    I'm not holding my breath anymore, though.

  7. #67
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    Its more engaging than any other content in the game where you can literally roll your face across the keyboard and still get a clear.

    I don't have an issue with a static driven system. That said it would be nice to have other content that wasn't faceroll that required multiple statics/linkshells/fc's to team up for. Right now there really isn't much incentive to do that.

    But I do think there is a lack of variety in the actual style of raiding for Gordias (all dps check) and Midas (all punishing mechanics checks). Creator had neither - The mechanics were more forgiving but required more reaction, but the dps checks were no way at the savage level. Why not have a mix? Have a whole fight dps check heavy turn. Have a heavy mechanical turn. Mix things up a bit.

    But I agree, there needs to be more content and its what i've been trying to say - 4 fights just isn't enough.

    I can't say I disagree about the rest of your post though. I'm not sure if i'll stay playing for 4.0. Maybe another game will take my fancy.

  8. #68
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    I think at this point, both sides (both devs and players) have absolutely no idea what they want anymore as their core vision. This is the downfall of the MMO genre as a whole -- devs pander to a specific block of MMO gamers within the genre, mainly the casual crowd, and it inevitably leads to a lack of innovation in favor of steady returns. Essentially the REAL problem is casuals. When you have a gamer block who is so volatile and has no real lasting devotion to the game (or other MMOs, MOBAs), you arrive at this never ending catch-22 problem (one that hasn't been truly solved in 10 years since WoW). So how is it solved now? Devs add hardcore content, usually exceptionally difficult, which leads to very little interest (and in most cases fear) from the playerbase in tackling the content. These same devs, in an attempt to increase interest at the endgame level, makes the next tier of content -- content that is deemed "too easy" right after. The devs envision making content that's easy to get into, players see and talk about content that was nerfed to shit. There's no middle ground ever.

    The true answer honestly lies in not increasing or decreasing the difficulty of content, but vastly increasing the breadth of content of all ranging difficulties, and marketing them all under the umbrella of "endgame content". Simple in concept, but likely untenable in the long run without a specific investment (and interest) in mind from the higher ups in these companies (SE in particular).

    No one should fool themselves into thinking making difficult content is a concept that is lost on, or hard to accomplish by Yoshida & his team. Especially after seeing how A3S or the original Twintania (after the first fix) turned out. Yoshida himself has implied time and time again, usually in Live Letters, that he wished players weren't bads at this game. The real problem is attempting to level up the typical casual gamer into a player who can play the game at a higher level, allowing for the devs to continue to release a steady flow of challenging, difficult content. This is best solved by adding a large mix of endgame content of varying difficulty, instead of modifying the difficulty of the highest tier of content.

    Also the rewards need to absolutely match the level of content cleared -- there should be no reason why casuals are allowed access to weapons and equipment that can nearly rival the rewards given by Savage just because they want to keep players happy, even if they get it 2-5 months later.

  9. #69
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    Was backreading saw someone say Yoshida has no idea what he's doing.
    I don't think he is a bad developer, but I think the game needs someone with a different perspective now cause he seems somewhat stuck in this loopy situation. I know someone might say well let's just wait Stormblood before judging, but you remember that was the same conversation had before the release of HW and it turned out to be the same as ARR..

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    I think at this point, both sides (both devs and players) have absolutely no idea what they want anymore as their core vision. This is the downfall of the MMO genre as a whole -- devs pander to a specific block of MMO gamers within the genre, mainly the casual crowd, and it inevitably leads to a lack of innovation in favor of steady returns. Essentially the REAL problem is casuals. When you have a gamer block who is so volatile and has no real lasting devotion to the game (or other MMOs, MOBAs), you arrive at this never ending catch-22 problem (one that hasn't been truly solved in 10 years since WoW). So how is it solved now? Devs add hardcore content, usually exceptionally difficult, which leads to very little interest (and in most cases fear) from the playerbase in tackling the content. These same devs, in an attempt to increase interest at the endgame level, makes the next tier of content -- content that is deemed "too easy" right after. The devs envision making content that's easy to get into, players see and talk about content that was nerfed to shit. There's no middle ground ever.

    The true answer honestly lies in not increasing or decreasing the difficulty of content, but vastly increasing the breadth of content of all ranging difficulties, and marketing them all under the umbrella of "endgame content". Simple in concept, but likely untenable in the long run without a specific investment (and interest) in mind from the higher ups in these companies (SE in particular).

    No one should fool themselves into thinking making difficult content is a concept that is lost on, or hard to accomplish by Yoshida & his team. Especially after seeing how A3S or the original Twintania (after the first fix) turned out. Yoshida himself has implied time and time again, usually in Live Letters, that he wished players weren't bads at this game. The real problem is attempting to level up the typical casual gamer into a player who can play the game at a higher level, allowing for the devs to continue to release a steady flow of challenging, difficult content. This is best solved by adding a large mix of endgame content of varying difficulty, instead of modifying the difficulty of the highest tier of content.

    Also the rewards need to absolutely match the level of content cleared -- there should be no reason why casuals are allowed access to weapons and equipment that can nearly rival the rewards given by Savage just because they want to keep players happy, even if they get it 2-5 months later.
    You make some really good points - that said, I think individuals know what they want from a MMO, but there's just so many its diluted, and as you said, the dev's tend to pander to the loudest voices. They can design good fights (and I think some of the fights in Creator would be well remembered if the dps checks weren't so lax). I also completely agree about the weapons and equipment point - rewards should scale based on the difficulty of the content.

    Don't get me wrong, I want a large population playing the game, but I think you need to split "casuals" into two groups - the "game hoppers" - they are also the ones that are going to hop between games subbing a month here and there. The main thing that appeals to these players are new systems. But the rate of return on the investment is poor for this outside of expansions - so I don't think for major patches that the dev's should be putting the majority of their funds into this. At the end of the day, these players are going to sub a month there and there and are going to unsub.

    Then you have the "hardcore" social players. They don't play the game to a particularly high level (top end raiding), they stay subbed and are excited by the amount large breadth of poor and shallow content - and they are happy with this. Investing more isn't going to get much out of this because you could quite literally patch in a gigantic pile of horseshit and they would praise it - tl;dr they will sub no matter what.

    Then you have the "Hardcore" raiders - who want challenging content and would stay subbed if it was provided in decent numbers, but end up staying subbed for half the year at most (sometimes less than that) because of the lack of content.

    People love to go "well raiders don't have the majority of the population" (and while its not the majority of the pop its still a very decent number) - but its actually about what will get SE the most subscribers. Evidentally, doing 4 non faceroll fights every 8/9 months isn't doing that.

    But don't worry, lets make another minigame that no-one will use.

  11. #71
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    Lord of Verminion..

    It was a cute idea. But that execution. I've never seen content be DOA like that in any game I've played. Diadem was right behind it in "things that died within one week of release"

    And weren't they talking about adding more things to it?

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post

    But SE refuse to hire more devs to make engaging content, and Yoshi-P seems to dislike making engaging content - moreso after the crying about Gordias and Midas Savage.
    The former wont change anything though. Remember that he disagreed with his own staff at one point. He's the director. It's going to be his way or no way. :/

    Maybe the guy is scared of having the same fate as Tanaka. But it maybe that very fear that becomes his undoing.

    And I didn't mention why I unsubbed. Most of my reasons are covered in this thread(haha like mental echos), but ultimately realizing that all these patches were amounting to nothing.

  13. #73
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    I think PotD was a move in the right direction. It just needs some tuning to make it a bit more engaging as it is and add floor lamps!!! I am talking here from a standpoint where we went as 2 DPS to floor 150. With a proper pt setup it will be faceroll


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  14. #74
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nep View Post
    Lord of Verminion..

    It was a cute idea. But that execution. I've never seen content be DOA like that in any game I've played. Diadem was right behind it in "things that died within one week of release"

    And weren't they talking about adding more things to it?
    Died on arrival, but it was a given considering there were no other large changes made to Gold Saucer that accompanied it. He had a snowboarding game that was in mind, one that hasn't been commented on since.

    If they want to revive LoV and Gold Saucer in general, a good start would be to reinstate the special Gold Saucer event that they held a while back, but make it a fairly common occurrence (like every 3-5 months). The one they held turned out to be an exceptionally crazy success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
    The former wont change anything though. Remember that he disagreed with his own staff at one point. He's the director. It's going to be his way or no way. :/

    Maybe the guy is scared of having the same fate as Tanaka. But it maybe that very fear that becomes his undoing.
    This isn't exactly right at all. There has been a few situations where Yoshi has acquiesced to his team (early WAR changes, housing, NIN mudra fixes, PLD fixes) after being initially bullheaded and standoffish. However he is the boss at the end of the day, and he definitely is the final say on every single addition or change to the game. He is even the final say on mundane tasks such as how armor/weapons are dyed and localization efforts.

    Also seeing as he's on SE's Board of Directors even as a junior officer, his role is pretty secure, as long as he maintains (which he will).

  15. #75
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    I still hate how LoV is a thing. It started off a 'joke' and barely anyone requested it to become a reality..then we get it. But A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT OF PEOPLE request better relevant systems..it will never materialize. At this point we're going to get LoV Season 2 before we get real changes to this game.

    Or even that dating shit they joked about, which seems like is becoming a reality based on having to "please" NPCs with the Gathering version of Wonderous Tails.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiye View Post
    But what Yoshida wants to avoid what WoW is having where if I get a i880 piece as a firemage where its Intellect, Haste (Spell Speed), and Versatility (Det) I'm throwing it in the garbage because I currently have a Crit and Master piece thats sitting at i850 that does me waaaay better.
    The alternative is what we have in XIV, where basically it's ilvl or garbage bin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nep View Post
    Lord of Verminion..

    It was a cute idea. But that execution. I've never seen content be DOA like that in any game I've played. Diadem was right behind it in "things that died within one week of release"
    Diadem is the single most disappointing piece of content in this release. The potential for it was so high; it was the first content in this game that would allow for flexible numbers of entrants, and also dropped meaningful gear.

    My FC originally had two smaller FCs merge in during late 2.x, all with the promise of doing "FC airship content;" we had three separate raid groups (plus some stragglers) clear T13, and we had a full complement of R50 FC airships and a fully unlocked map at Diadem release. The utter failure of Diadem pared my FC down to less than one full raid group.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    The alternative is what we have in XIV, where basically it's ilvl or garbage bin.
    I think FFXIV is better for it at its current configuration. Wherein there's two types of max ilv gear that both come from Savage (I'm not talking about the welfare upgrade mats that'll come within the next patch). I'd rather have ilvs take president rather than basic secondary stats. Though set bonuses would be nice it'd be hard to design them in a way that a single savage drop wouldn't completely ruin it. I'm trying to think of a system that would allow set bonuses or job specific bonuses to take place but I'm having a hard time trying to make it so that a piece would be unique but not so necessary that it remains relevant a content cycle later. (e.g. Midas pants being better than Creator pants because the job upgrade it provides give a better upgrade.)

  18. #78
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    Literally all they need to do is have a Wondrous Tails-style system that gives materia that upgrades job abilities/traits.

    But that would give players too many dangerous and confusing choices.

  19. #79

    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    I think PotD was a move in the right direction. It just needs some tuning to make it a bit more engaging as it is and add floor lamps!!! I am talking here from a standpoint where we went as 2 DPS to floor 150. With a proper pt setup it will be faceroll
    Palace of the Dead Game is the best content in FFXIV so far. The cruel irony here is that they had to shuck off every design decision they made for FFXIV over the last 3 years in order to make something good.

    - no role restrictions
    - no minimum party size
    - test player fitness instead of rote memorization
    - wild, unforgiving imbalance between jobs
    - diversity of encounters driven by player choice and some RNG (farm for poms? burn through the floors? use Rage now? didn't we have a Serenity? who used my fucking Serenity?)

    Imagine that. You drop the ilvl ladder, the meticulous job balancing and the loads of restrictions, you get more interesting content.

    Right now PotD is Shin Megami Tensei: Yoshida with a faint echo of FFXI Salvage cells. All they gotta do is dig wider instead of deeper and we could have some mainstay Nyzul/Salvage content. Add puzzles, secret rooms, more poms, more traps, more suffering. Create something punishing enough to warrant comparable gear to Savage, so you could either play jumprope in the raid du jour or get blown the fuck out in PotD.

  20. #80
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    LoV, like most XIV ideas, was good on paper. A fun minigame for the gold saucer that would actually utilize those stupid useless minions everyone is so hell-bent on collecting. As usual, its execution is where it utterly failed. The minigame was too confusing, too hard to control, overly complex, didn't offer any worthwhile rewards, and failed to be aesthetically pleasing. Just like fucking chocobo racing. Though if you ask me, chocobo racing was always the worse one, because of the ridiculous amount of hours you'd have to pour into building a S rank bird. Literally hundreds of hours racing just to breed up to the best bird you can get, and it barely even offers e-peen status. I'm sorry I wasted my life on that. I thought it would get better, but it never did.

    Diadem didn't die a week after drop on my server, but I was in a dedicated LS for it that had a lot of people interested in it long after it came out. Problem was, Diadem hinged on a lot of players being in the zone at once to take down the big bads. If you were the only party there, it was next to worthless. Even if you could pop HNMs relatively quickly, taking them down just took too long. Once interest had fallen off on your data center, going in became pretty pointless. Well, it was kind of fun for a few days at least, but after all its (few) secrets were unlocked Diadem became a repetitive snoozefest for most. I was determined to have fun with it and did for the most part, but there just wasn't a lasting ability to keep messing around with it once it became deserted.

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