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  1. #81
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    Alas, the overarching bellows and screams of the more casual people of the community really dictate the difficulty level of content that's released.

    Even if it's something that's meant to be pursued only by the more skilled populace, I get this impression that if the casual populace feels left out despite it being content not MEANT for them, they'll just cross their arms and demand to somehow be included without wanting to improve themselves through practice and work.

    I remember something ridiculous about how the Feast ranking exclusive rewards were somehow being made more accessible to everyone now, which to me seems pretty sad for the people who actually did work for it, just as an example of the problem above.



    The one thing I do have to disagree with you upon is the "unforgiving imbalance" between jobs. I can honestly say that was actually one of my least favourite things about FFXI: the job exclusion. It didn't matter how skillfully you played PUP, you were just mechanically never ever going be comparable to something like SAM/WAR/DRK in terms of damage in anything. I don't think I ever want to go back to that level of "job imbalance". Even if it meant that certain jobs had really niche unique applications.

    It's kind of the same problem with gear in FFXI too. I'm pretty sure I spent more time organizing my spellcast file/organizing my damn inventory/overlooking every situational -damage%, -magical damage%, haste with -damage%, don't switch my main body out while I'm under this status but change it out if I don't have this status... (it goes on really) more than actually playing the game. This is all of course, assuming the spellcast file actually runs properly.

    That was too much.

    While I think FFXIV could definitely use a bit more branching out with customizing, and some more job unique gear stats, I think going too complex would be just as damning as being too simple.



    I do agree with the raid difficulty tiers though. I think if we added one more difficulty for the hardcore players, that would be good.

    We have story mode for ilv250 (Hard), our current "accessible" savage for ilv270 (Extreme), then I think there should be a ilv285 difficulty for the hardcores (No Mercy).

    I think 15+ ilvs would be a fair increase. 10 wouldn't seem like enough, and 20 would maybe be a bit too much- I think that it would definitely make the hardcore players feel rewarded as this type of gear would be the cream of the crop- beyond tomestone gear and what not too. I think it should also be more tightly tuned than the other fights- it should be extremely difficult.

    Just my 2 cents!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I'm pretty sure I spent more time organizing my spellcast file/organizing my damn inventory/overlooking every situational -damage%, -magical damage%, haste with -damage%, don't switch my main body out while I'm under this status but change it out if I don't have this status... (it goes on really) more than actually playing the game.
    This is a good thing, because it stretches out the limited content between patches. In other words, if you can increase your... well, not quite "playtime," but game-related time with activity (read: strategizing) that doesn't require them to develop content, then you get more life out of each patch cycle.

    This is, of course, presuming that you find gear management and optimization to be an enjoyable activity. If you don't, then this won't help... but if you're that kind of player, XIV's current gear system should be great for you as is, as "gear management and optimization" takes less than five seconds - you can literally click a button and have the game equip optimized gear for you.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    Alas, the overarching bellows and screams of the more casual people of the community really dictate the difficulty level of content that's released.

    Even if it's something that's meant to be pursued only by the more skilled populace, I get this impression that if the casual populace feels left out despite it being content not MEANT for them, they'll just cross their arms and demand to somehow be included without wanting to improve themselves through practice and work.
    And yet, if you say that you want difficult content, they bitch and moan and call you elitist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    The one thing I do have to disagree with you upon is the "unforgiving imbalance" between jobs. I can honestly say that was actually one of my least favourite things about FFXI: the job exclusion. It didn't matter how skillfully you played PUP, you were just mechanically never ever going be comparable to something like SAM/WAR/DRK in terms of damage in anything. I don't think I ever want to go back to that level of "job imbalance". Even if it meant that certain jobs had really niche unique applications.

    It's kind of the same problem with gear in FFXI too. I'm pretty sure I spent more time organizing my spellcast file/organizing my damn inventory/overlooking every situational -damage%, -magical damage%, haste with -damage%, don't switch my main body out while I'm under this status but change it out if I don't have this status... (it goes on really) more than actually playing the game. This is all of course, assuming the spellcast file actually runs properly.

    That was too much.

    While I think FFXIV could definitely use a bit more branching out with customising, and some more job unique gear stats, I think going too complex would be just as damning as being too simple.
    I can't comment about the situation in XI - but there is certainly a case of that in FFXIV - partially due to job balance and sometimes due to fights (PLD/WHM/MNK/BRD). But when you have the "meta" group setup being 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 Melee, 1 Support & 1 Caster, its a lot harder to find groups if you are certain classes (i.e. Casters, less so supports due to the lower amount of players actually playing supports). I think this tier has done a better job in some respects at including casters, particularly with the reactive mechanics benefiting ranged (Especially SMN) and how burst can help with skipping phases - but when you are geared, you may aswell just go triple melee and burn it and skip phases/mechanics.

    But I don't think you're ever going to get around the fact that some jobs will be desirable or not. Some stuff is just too good not to have (Disembowel, Ninja's trick attack + aggro benefits, MCH Hypercharge for Physical dps) - whereas Monk's previous amazing ability (Dragon kick) can be provided by DRK. I don't think its possible to balance the jobs because there will always be a "meta" - but in an ideal scenario, it would be nice to see different compositions being viable. Right now its only double melee or triple melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I do agree with the raid difficulty tiers though. I think if we added one more difficulty for the hardcore players, that would be good.

    We have story mode for ilv250 (Hard), our current "accessible" savage for ilv270 (Extreme), then I think there should be a ilv285 difficulty for the hardcores (No Mercy).

    I think 15+ ilvs would be a fair increase. 10 wouldn't seem like enough, and 20 would maybe be a bit too much- I think that it would definitely make the hardcore players feel rewarded as this type of gear would be the cream of the crop- beyond tomestone gear and what not too. I think it should also be more tightly tuned than the other fights- it should be extremely difficult.

    Just my 2 cents!
    I would be really happy if in 3.5 there was a version of creator with punishing mechanics and tough DPS checks. But there would have to be a gear increase in order to get people to do it (otherwise its second coil all over again).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    This is a good thing, because it stretches out the limited content between patches. In other words, if you can increase your... well, not quite "playtime," but game-related time with activity (read: strategizing) that doesn't require them to develop content, then you get more life out of each patch cycle.

    This is, of course, presuming that you find gear management and optimization to be an enjoyable activity. If you don't, then this won't help... but if you're that kind of player, XIV's current gear system should be great for you as is, as "gear management and optimization" takes less than five seconds - you can literally click a button and have the game equip optimized gear for you.
    I would like more stuff to theorycraft and work out in the game. Sure the end result may be boring, but the journey there would be nice - but I think it would have to be intuitive and engaging, rather than just "spec fire for this fight against shiva".

  5. #85

    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    But I don't think you're ever going to get around the fact that some jobs will be desirable or not. Some stuff is just too good not to have (Disembowel, Ninja's trick attack + aggro benefits, MCH Hypercharge for Physical dps) - whereas Monk's previous amazing ability (Dragon kick) can be provided by DRK.
    Why would a DRK want reduced blunt resistance?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldsaxon View Post
    I would like more stuff to theorycraft and work out in the game. Sure the end result may be boring, but the journey there would be nice - but I think it would have to be intuitive and engaging, rather than just "spec fire for this fight against shiva".
    Well in XI though you had the elemental weakness, there wasn't really a lot of gear for BLM that boosted the power of specific elements. The biggest one was the weapon, a set of 8 Elemental Staves (1 for each element) that were BiS for the duration of the entire game pretty much. Once you had your staves you were more or less set for weapon which was nice. Better yet, they were crafted, so people with high woodworking could always turn a profit on those. None of this "replace it every month" nonsense, because it was an investment and pretty difficult to get if you were poor. They were good for all mages more or less, so they were doing double and triple duty for many people. This is the kind of gear you get attached to because of its longevity, usefulness, and notoriety. The kind of thing that never happens in XIV =/

    As for the armor for BLM, you had different sets for different "points" during your spell cast: "Fast Cast+" gear for the beginning of the spell, to make sure the spell casts as fast as possible, then "elemental magic+/magic burst+/weather+ (if there was weather favorable to your spell)" gear for the middle of the spell, so the spell lands as strongly as possible on the mob. Then you switch quickly back into your idle set, which usually consisted of damage mitigation/refresh/regen gear. The biggest problem with this system was that you couldn't possibly manually switch everything, especially for the shorter spells. You had to program a script that would do it for you.

    This also meant you had to acquire and keep a LOT of gear pieces in your inventory - most of the game was dedicated to funding and/or fighting for the best armor for your favorite class, which understandably could take the entire duration of your time outside of leveling up. The methods of acquisition were highly varied as well: some important pieces came from raids like Dynamis, some were crafted, some were bought with event currency, some were drops from open-world NMs. The content had to be incredibly varied just to make sure there were places for all that shit to come from! This stands in stark contrast to XIV's vertical gear progression system where gear is replaced so often and so easily that they need to set locks for how much currency you can obtain for it every week, and the currency comes from only a few places that you must repeat ad nauseum over a short timespan to cap.

    I'm not saying XIV has to be exactly like XI in this regard, I'm just pointing out that XI's method of itemization is one that worked almost exactly how it should have (and that despite elemental weakness being in the game, there wasn't a lot of gearing towards it). But if XIV's itemization and battle system were better, and worked together in tandem instead of apparently being two completely separate entities, the game would be a lot more fun. If there were some choice as to how to build your character, different places to acquire gear, certain gear to boost certain abilities, and just a smidge longer on the lifespan of gear, the game would be better for it. For example, XIV has a beautiful open world but it's barely used for anything but repetitive FATEs and hunts, both of which are communal activities and don't offer gear rewards. Surely they could implement some type of NM system. It wouldn't have to be so exclusionary as XI's was (camping NMs only to get claim stolen was the least fun part of the game), but it would need to be challenging and rewarding, two things that XIV tends to be short on. It would also force people to work together on their own servers, rather than congealing into an angry mob like with fates/hunts or just registering for DF solo.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almalexia View Post
    Why would a DRK want reduced blunt resistance?
    Sorry, I should have been cleared. I was talking about the raid wide utility that it brings (Int down)

  8. #88
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    In regards to job balance, aside from PLD in Gordias and WAR in 2.0 BCoB, the jobs are balanced good enough that bringing one of the jobs not part of the current meta isn't a complete detriment to the party nor would it require drastic strat changes i.e. bringing a MNK instead of DRG/NIN isn't going ruffle your feathers unless you're aiming for max fflogs e-peen.

  9. #89
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    Don't forget AST during pre patch 3.05

    Healing Ravana Ex on AST during 3.0 wasn't hard but it was harder than doing the same on WHM (And the potency outputs were garbage compared to WHM).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    In regards to job balance, aside from PLD in Gordias and WAR in 2.0 BCoB, the jobs are balanced good enough that bringing one of the jobs not part of the current meta isn't a complete detriment to the party nor would it require drastic strat changes i.e. bringing a MNK instead of DRG/NIN isn't going ruffle your feathers unless you're aiming for max fflogs e-peen.
    Pretty sure it was an issue in Gordias progression. Outside of that, sure, you can clear content without certain jobs - but that isn't what job balance is. Job balance is comparing the effectiveness of the jobs at completing the current content. When taking a Monk/PLD/BLM/SMN/BRD or AST/WHM in all turns is a detriment (each class/classes have had times where this is the case outside of the example you gave), then there's an issue with the job balance.

    Monk is a current issue and it also wasn't ideal in 2.4.
    PLD was a huge issue in 3.0 and suboptimal in 3.4
    BLM/SMN have been close to being issues since MCH's release in 3.0 - mainly that 2 melee's is standard and 3 melee's is actually pretty viable in most fights. They have done a better job this tier though, partially due to Bard's buff's, partially due to mechanics (went into it earlier). There have been some cheese mechanics that required them - such as the double damage in AS1 (although MCH bursts higher. SMN was better for progession due to double dotting but as kills got faster, blm was better), heavy AOE in AS2 (SMN was pretty OP here). SMN was better in progression for AS6. You had the caster cage in AS7 but healers could do it. Its more an issue with hypercharge being so strong, but helped with the buffs to BRD/BLM and SMN.
    BRD has been an issue since people learnt to play MCH - i.e. for the entirety of 3.0. Its got better as the patches went on but MCH is still considerably better.
    AST was a huge issue in 3.0, sub optimal in 3.2
    WHM was sub optimal in 3.4

    While its all well and good having players be adaptable to switch classes on the fly, the current gear progression hurts that. So i'd like to see that changed in 4.0, and i'd like to see adjustments given to jobs when a tier comes out rather than 4 months later. But that would require them to actually test their raids probably and that isn't going to happen.

    That said, if people disagree i'd love to hear other opinions on this because I am looking at it through BLM tinted glasses. If I was a better player i'd probably play Monk/SMN and MCH more often.

  11. #91
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    The problem with XIV:ARR is Yoshida seems to view players as entities to be managed within his game
    not as free actors who get to play within his game.

    FFXIV won't get better as a game until there is a whole change in attitude towards the players and how the game interacts with them.

    While the 1.0 designers seemed to misunderstand what is acceptable in terms of UI/UX, at least the game had promise in terms of game-play.
    ARR has fixed many of the UI/UI issues 1.0 had but now the designers have a terrible approach towards players and what it means to "play" in a game.

    All this beautiful artwork and music, all of the hard effort by programmers, artists and technical artists... all wasted on a game that refuses to allow players to actually participate and actually play.

    Edit: It's not that the game is even bad on a surface level. The dungeons are pretty fun the first of time around and the game looks pretty. The art is consistent, the characters move when you push the buttons (lag aside) and the client as a whole is serviceable. These are all things that some games get wrong.

    It's that the game as a MMO should be capable of supporting possibly hundreds of engaging hours of play but lacks the systems required for that to occur. The progression systems, the skills, the items, the combat itself. Even the social aspect of the game seems to limp at best.

    Here's a test: When you first levelled a class/job in ARR and went through the dungeons, at which point did you feel "yeah, yeah, I get it already" about the combat? That moment when you realised the monsters had very little reaction to you / interaction with you, the player, beyond tank abilities and scripted enmity changes? When you figured that the combat really wasn't going to get any deeper beyond addition of more moves for combos? Was it around Brayflox's Longstop? Sooner?

    To be perfectly honest the ARR combat system was starting to get wearing by the end of the ARR beta. That's about level 15. At its release I felt that maybe the other parts of the game would make up for it in some way but in the end not.

    At its heart the game design can't carry the weight of the quantity of hours it asks players for. The execution appears to be fine but the design behind most of the game's systems only offers a veneer of depth.

  12. #92

    And yet, if you say that you want difficult content, they bitch and moan and call you elitist.
    When the root of the request applies logic like, "Content not MEANT for them!" then, yeah, it kinda is. See, some people seem a bit too caught up in presuming everyone who hates this kind of model is just skill-less bad, when it's not just individual skill that determines a character's progression potential in the long term. When you can not commit to a static and routine schedule, you immediately become undesirable to those who can. Each week that goes by where one can not participate, their currency count isn't as high and/or they simply don't get access to a RNG drop. All of that simply snowballs until the regulars are a full gear slot of stats ahead, then a second, and so on. If the affected player can not hope to PUG or take advantage of alternative content if it did exist, just what is their motivation to keep playing if they are interested in becoming stronger?

    Bluntly, if you really do want to run with that exclusivity wall, then pay wall the shit. Make the casual sub cost $8/mo while all you guys who want the "full experience" pay current full price. Anyone who wants to join in after the fact would obviously have to upgrade their payment plan, even if only temporarily. Not only does SE find who truly is interested in such content/difficulty, but it also effectively budgets them on how much they should divert to the obvious minority, because not a damn dime of casual money should go into such content if you want to keep it from them just because you wanna feel more important. And if that means you wind up only getting a new raid once every 9-12 months, well, perhaps the game is not meant for you, hmm?

    Snark aside, I do understand wanting to feel challenged. However, accessibility is still key. Simply adding another difficulty level does nothing to address that conundrum since coordinating the lives of 7-23 others is not within one person's control. What this ultimately means is that one should not expect exclusive combat applicable rewards like higher tier gear. At best, they should see the other stuff at a quicker pace due to increased currency/drop slots. Vanity is free game, of course. If the resulting complaint is that finishing more quickly would leave you bored even more so, I'd continue to posit the real flaw in the game design is what goes on between the raids. Or more accurately, what does not. No interest to craft? No interest to level/gear other jobs? No reason to fight in the overworld? What would it take to get one to indulge in such things that isn't just another "you and 7-23 additional bodies" solution?

  13. #93
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    people saying job balance is a problem in FFXIV - well, sure. to a degree it will be a problem in any mmo. but I think all Rionel is saying is you can't compare it to something like PUP or DRG in FFXI, and I agree with that. the difference in FFXIV (in my experience) is nothing compared to XI, where people would flat-out refuse to play with you if you were PUP or DRG. at least back when I played.

  14. #94
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    Everything is cleanable with some sort of make up, even if you have duplicate jobs it's possible, there isn't an impossible "you cannot clear content with x-setup" if you follow the 2T 2H 4DD standard.

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    It'd be more doable if they'd quit it with the damn LB restrictions. Having a single dupe job screws with your LB building so god damn hard. Thank god the DPS checks are so lenient in the current tier that it doesn't really matter though for progression.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    When the root of the request applies logic like, "Content not MEANT for them!" then, yeah, it kinda is. See, some people seem a bit too caught up in presuming everyone who hates this kind of model is just skill-less bad, when it's not just individual skill that determines a character's progression potential in the long term. When you can not commit to a static and routine schedule, you immediately become undesirable to those who can. Each week that goes by where one can not participate, their currency count isn't as high and/or they simply don't get access to a RNG drop. All of that simply snowballs until the regulars are a full gear slot of stats ahead, then a second, and so on. If the affected player can not hope to PUG or take advantage of alternative content if it did exist, just what is their motivation to keep playing if they are interested in becoming stronger?

    Bluntly, if you really do want to run with that exclusivity wall, then pay wall the shit. Make the casual sub cost $8/mo while all you guys who want the "full experience" pay current full price. Anyone who wants to join in after the fact would obviously have to upgrade their payment plan, even if only temporarily. Not only does SE find who truly is interested in such content/difficulty, but it also effectively budgets them on how much they should divert to the obvious minority, because not a damn dime of casual money should go into such content if you want to keep it from them just because you wanna feel more important. And if that means you wind up only getting a new raid once every 9-12 months, well, perhaps the game is not meant for you, hmm?

    Snark aside, I do understand wanting to feel challenged. However, accessibility is still key. Simply adding another difficulty level does nothing to address that conundrum since coordinating the lives of 7-23 others is not within one person's control. What this ultimately means is that one should not expect exclusive combat applicable rewards like higher tier gear. At best, they should see the other stuff at a quicker pace due to increased currency/drop slots. Vanity is free game, of course. If the resulting complaint is that finishing more quickly would leave you bored even more so, I'd continue to posit the real flaw in the game design is what goes on between the raids. Or more accurately, what does not. No interest to craft? No interest to level/gear other jobs? No reason to fight in the overworld? What would it take to get one to indulge in such things that isn't just another "you and 7-23 additional bodies" solution?
    You completely missed the point I was making. Why is it ok for people to complain about the raid difficulty being so high that they want easier content while saying to the end game raiders things like "The game isn't meant for you", when raiders get chastised for asking for harder content to keep them subbed to the game.

    To take it further, i'll point out another side of your post:

    Each week that goes by where one no more content left to do, they do their weekly clears and try to get access to a RNG drop. All of that simply snowballs until those players are a full in gear. If the affected player has someone in their group quit or doesn't find enjoyment in the game, just what is their motivation to keep playing if they are interested in challenging themselves?

    Evidently, in answer to your original version of the above - the "Hardcore non raiders" keep subbing - they are content with crafting/grinding tomes/doing relic/mount farming/social interaction in the game. Its the players that just play the expansion, and the raiders that unsub and come back when there is more content. And each time, less players come back. (Expansion patches > Raid patches > Casual Patches for player activity).

    And the crux of it all - everyone thinks its one or the other. It absolutely isn't. If SE took their finger out and hired more staff to cater to the player numbers that play the game, they could provide more content to keep players occupied. I'm not saying it will ever be enough, but how on earth is 4 fights every 9 months acceptable?

    How would the "Hardcore Non Raiders" like it if there was the opposite - every piece of content was raid content that was non faceroll, and all they got was normal mode of the raid. No MSQ. No 24 man easy mode. No Glamour. No Hildebrand. No trials. No dungeons. No crafting patches. No minions. No diadem. No hunts. No Wondrous Tails. No Mounts. No deep dungeon (early levels). No Golden Saucer. No Houses. No apartments (that are upcoming). No side story quests - etc etc etc. You get the picture.

    And regarding the last point - i'll list your solutions to your flaw that is finishing quickly:

    - No interest to craft? - Been there, done that. There is no skill in crafting - the system is boring and provides no challenge.

    - No interest to level/gear other jobs? - Been there, done that. Without challenging content, there's no point to doing that.

    - No reason to fight in the overworld? - Name me something that is difficult to do in the overworld, and if you name something, i'll probably say "How on earth do you find that difficult".

    - What would it take to get one to indulge in such things that isn't just another "you and 7-23 additional bodies" solution?

    While I haven't ever specified the number (having harder 4 man dungeons would be nice), if I wanted to play a challenging single player game, i'd, you know, buy a single player RPG. Not a MMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    When the root of the request applies logic like, "Content not MEANT for them!" then, yeah, it kinda is
    Biggest problem, though - it's never rooted like that, the people who are ready to shoot down any logical request simply states that. "content not meant for them" I've seen largely worded as "content that isn't designed to hand out consolation prizes that are equal to winning first prize." People want challenging content, XIV playerbase enjoy having everything handed out to them, so obviously you're simply being an "elitist" because you'd rather the game reward you for working hard and tackling challenging content rather than logging on, load up duty find and profit just as well.

    People say "the direction of the game is casual focused"..which is fine, but I don't recall casual meaning focusing on players who have no idea how to play the game. This isn't a hard game, that's why it's so odd people are so against challenging/slightly harder content because aside the mistuning of Gordias, even the hard content isn't "hard", there's just initial ilvl barriers.

    Not only does SE find who truly is interested in such content/difficulty, but it also effectively budgets them on how much they should divert to the obvious minority, because not a damn dime of casual money should go into such content if you want to keep it from them just because you wanna feel more important. And if that means you wind up only getting a new raid once every 9-12 months, well, perhaps the game is not meant for you, hmm?
    I think the true root of the problem are the players who yell "inaccessible!" yet can spend 7-10 hours RPing or collecting glamour (as the gear is worthless) after the content is obsolete. There is literally no content kept from anybody, just people refusing to do the content. If you have no FC? Find one. Start one. If you don't want to? That's cool too, but there's nothing in the game that prevents you from doing any of the content. Nothing in real life either, if you have a sub, max level, decent ilvl - Meaning you have more than enough time to actually do x content. Based on census data, the TRUE casual players didn't have a level 50 job or level 60 job, the main level range was between 27-35 or so, actual casual players. Meaning the MINORITY of players are the ones actually in max level range, let alone high enough ilvl to do any 'end-game' content.

    However, accessibility is still key. Simply adding another difficulty level does nothing to address that conundrum since coordinating the lives of 7-23 others is not within one person's control.
    Raid Finder. Therein lies the other issue - The game doesn't have a reason to "git gud" until the end because it's too busy holding your hand and passing out gear like candy so when they DO finally introduce something with a SLIGHT hint of difficulty, OF becomes a cesspool of asking for nerfs. It wasn't even 3 hours before people were crying for Weeping City and Final Steps of faith to be nerfed because god forbid you have to deal with pesky mechanics or know how to DPS...as a DPS.

    Funnily enough, you see far more: "this game isn't meant for you" and "raiding is a dead concept in MMORPGS" and "raiders need to gtfo" in the XIV community than you see chastising of casual players, because most casual players I know, even on Balmung, at least attempt to do shit rather than sit around and say the game is too hard when they don't even touch the content and just read what other casual players are saying because they chose to do Sophia Ex and kept falling off.

    As for the whole 'static' that's largely an NA/EU concept. JP players have them but they also can do content without needing a static. You don't need a static at all especially for this game, with the quality of players on some NA data centers I can see why you would, but you really don't.

    Adding a 3rd tier actually would help out because then they can redo the rewards a lot better. You want to do it for story? You got story/easy mode, no rewards. You want lower ilvl (290 instead of 320 for example) rewards? You got "Normal (tuned to current savage)" mode. You want best ilvl rewards and additional shit? Do savage.

    It really is that simple.

  18. #98

    It really is that simple.
    Yet, it isn't.

    To be honest, the dissatisfaction of raiders is not unique to XIV.

    - Not enough content.
    - Content not hard enough.
    - Rewards not good enough.
    - Can't find people for content.

    Some combination of those pretty much plagues every MMO I've cared to hit max level on, and the suggested counters are always some degree of the devs needing to do more/not trying hard enough and/or players having difficulty with content needing to find that perfect guild or presume they just suck. It's not that "raiding is dead" per se, but more that it is an exceptionally difficult model to maintain and keep at the level some are so ravenously desperate to consume. If it is was so easy, it would've happened already, and said game would apparently be printing money if all the complainers collectively flocked to it.

    I'm not going to defend SE's bonehead moves with XIV. They've done some real stinkers over the past few years. However, I do think influencing how people view MMOs is an important aspect of it all. Simply put, just because the game forces an online connection, it does not mean every moment of a player's time should be spent interacting with others, or really forcing them to do so if they want to accomplish anything of merit. Pragmatically, this does not play well with people who do so in short bursts or are prone to interruptions from family/work/whatever. Rigid scheduling does not play nice for similar reasons. PUGs are habitually a disaster because everyone wants to reap the benefit of pro players, but never really ever wants to help elevate others to such a position and just rage quit after a wipe, start shit talking if they're only in minimum req gear, or bail when the newbie message pops. It also discounts the fact that some people do have anxiety issues, even over the net, when it comes to interacting and speaking up. Hell, I'm one of those people who has zero interest in voice chat as both a participant and listener, but you can bet your ass I get judged for it.

    Forced online isn't really being restricted to MMOs these days, though. The frequent scapegoat is anti-piracy, but the real issue is some believing making everything multiplayer 100% of the time makes everything better. It does not. Seeing people pine for the server situation of XI makes me shake my head. Parties were socially dead in that game, too, and the amount of times I'd walk away from a group with someone that actually wound up a friend and not just someone who begged for help, but never returned the favor, were pretty effin' small. No, most got absorbed into the cliques of their linkshells, just as people get locked to their FCs/statics here. Partying happens for certain content because you have to, not necessarily because one wants to. It's why, in XI, if I needed a bunch of silk thread or something, I wouldn't bug people to tag along with me even if it did speed up the process some. The sheer repetition of MMOs creates monotony most sane people should not be wanting to drag others into. And that is why having solo-friendly content with non-insignificant rewards is not only okay, but really should be encouraged. Otherwise, yes, you invite people logging in and realizing they have nothing to do, and sometimes that's a direct result of realizing Content A is not worth doing because Content B is better for progress. A and B should be interchangeable, doing whatever you fancy, or even both.

    We've gotta stop caring where and how other people gear up. No, this isn't the hyperbolic call to relics in our mailbox, but more of a resetting in focus to what's important: Fun. One can't just waggle their fingers at RPers and tell them they deserve a shit experience because they don't play your way. In contrast, no MMO has ever really tried to make RP a reputable aspiration precisely because storytelling is so arduously divorced from the combat system(s), and it's summarily mocked for that very reason. They get nothing to gloat with, even if they spend just as many hours, if not more, pursuing their idea of fun. But if they did? Holy shit, you can 100% bet the raiders would complain. It's mainly why I tried to emphasize world building at the end of my last post. Crafting boring? Fine. What would make it more interesting? Don't just fucking give up on it and presume something can't be salvaged because it's not the exact thing you want right this very moment. No open world challenges? Understandable if you only look at things from the perspective of trash mobs littering the wild. Yet, I'm of the mind there are more ways to challenge a player than just their mastery of skill rotations on things that'd wipe you with one fuck up, or XI-style rare mob claiming. What would make you want to explore? What would you want to find? The goal should be a meaningful game for everyone in the end, but MMOs as a whole still seem miles away from that possibility when we seem stuck in the "Us vs. Them" loop of who deserves dev resources with all manner of random justification thrown into the mix. Maybe in this way, you'd actually get a more robust multiplayer experience. But who am I kidding, change is scary and some people will never let go of bragging rights.

  19. #99
    I'VE CHOSEN A TITLE FOR THE LIKES OF YOU!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuri-G View Post
    people saying job balance is a problem in FFXIV - well, sure. to a degree it will be a problem in any mmo. but I think all Rionel is saying is you can't compare it to something like PUP or DRG in FFXI, and I agree with that. the difference in FFXIV (in my experience) is nothing compared to XI, where people would flat-out refuse to play with you if you were PUP or DRG. at least back when I played.
    That was definitely my point there.

    FFXIV's job balance isn't perfect, but you're never left doomed simply from your party set up. Every job has the tools to acceptably succeed at their role so long as you play it right. SMN is the king of AoE damage yeah, but every other DPS role can still AoE respectably. WAR is clearly the best tank, but not having one doesn't mean you're going to outright fail (it'll just be mildly suckier).

    In FFXI, the job balance is still crazy lopsided. Some jobs are literally useless in some scenarios to the point where it makes no sense to ever include them. Like, why would you ever bring a BST over something like WAR to HNMs? Or why would you ever bring SMN to Salvage instead of WHM/RDM/BRD?

    Some jobs like BST/SMN/PUP were just so flawed they couldn't hold a candle to the mainstay ones. FFXIV's AST at the beginning of Heavensward was definitely underpowered- but it wasn't... unusable? Just underwhelming.

    And that's what I like about FFXIV a lot. No matter what job you pick from a role- it always has a general usability. You're never left stranded with no tools.

  20. #100
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    The flipside of "every job is good enough for anything" is "every job is 'good enough' at everything."

    There's no reward for specialization or ingenuity; there's no incentive to be creative, and even in the few rare cases where creativity has paid off, SE has quickly taken steps to get everyone coloring back within the lines (e.g. Titan tanking Ramuh EX, classes in PvP).

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