Why don't you go to a church or why don't you believe in God/a god?

[steellord]

The problems with the God of the Gaps (and the watchmaker sub-argument) has been apparent for hundreds of years, but it keeps being used. For those who don't know, this is the idea that God is responsible for everything we can't otherwise explain in a deterministic fashion. So when we were really ignorant and didn't understand gravity, God was the one who made things fall down. Now that we understand gravity, it's no longer God's responsibility to make things fall. Because God's dominion shrinks as any individual's understanding increases, this is seen as a logical flaw. If we ever come up with a complete unified field theory, God might be shit out of luck and no longer have a role (unless you want to credit God with making all the rules). You see this in much more trivial examples all the time:
Ex. "Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that." - Bill O'Reilly

Rather than treat the "God of the Gaps" fallacy as an argument for the existence of God, I prefer to look at it as an explanation for religion. I think it's likely an accurate explanation.
Question: "Why do you believe in God?"
Answer: "Tides comes in, tides goes out. I can't explain that."

I mean, if you use Occam's Razor and accept that within our lifetimes there's a pretty reasonable chance we will reach a consensus about the rules that govern basically everything from a few seconds after the big bang to now, it gets really difficult to argue for an inert-yet-omnipotent God.

That and 'God' increasingly looks like such a weak little bitch for not creating things we truly can't ever explain that he's not even worth worshiping or wasting time on

I mean if i'm an all powerful God i'm gonna damn sure everyone knows it

[Zetanio]

Good. Notre Dame stinks.

[zoobernut]

A little family history since that effects my world views. First my father is a lot older so both of his parents died before I was born. His mom died when he was very young and he didn't get along with his older sister and father so when his father remarried he moved out (he was 13 at the time I think maybe a little younger) so his views are based on his own world experiences. I don't honestly know if he believes in god or not he has never impressed his views on me. He allowed me to come to my own conclusions, same as with my two older sisters. I do know that he is tolerant of organized religion but is critical when it is used as a form of oppression. He doesn't personally subscribe to any organized religion.

My grandmother on my mothers side is the only grandparent I knew. As far as I know her family was catholic but I don't know how strict. My great grandfather on that side was an economics professor at a major university back east in the New York area. I think they placed importance on science and intellectualism.

My grandmother studied a lot of major religions and read all their texts. She also studied a lot of the more fringe religions and belief systems. My entire life she was a practicing Buddhist and visited Tibet several times and hosted many Tibetan monks at her house.

She was always willing to talk about religion but never told her family what to believe. She was very open and accepting of all world views. Again similar to my dad acceptance and humanitarianism was most important.

My mother picked up a lot of that from my grandmother but my mother doesn't subscribe to any organized religion. She would describe herself as spiritual agnostic I think.

I personally picked pieces here and there from all of them but I tend to be more strictly atheist. I base my world views on what I can see and experience or what can be shown through evidence collected by experiments and follow logical conclusions based on science.

I tend to dislike organized religion more than my family. I think it facilitates a lot of terrible things in the world.

In person however I am very tolerant of my friends beliefs as long as they don't judge me for mine or try to force their views on me. I cannot stand people who think I need to be saved or look down on me for how I live my life. I also really hate it when people think that their personal moral views and religion should drive policy in a country with many many people. I think society works better when it is as secular as possible to allow for each individual to exist the way they want to.

The most important thing that I learned from my family is tolerance for others and I don't need to go to church or believe in god to live that way.

[Jefe]

Spoiler: show

a bit cliche, but



They weren't called the dark ages for lack of electricity.

I see Jesuit tech in dat pic doe.

Oh yeah, some of y'all like the Big Bang, y'all might want to google Georges Lematre (sp?).

[Hellfury]

Spoiler: show

I see Jesuit tech in dat pic doe.

Oh yeah, some of y'all like the Big Bang, y'all might want to google Georges Lematre (sp?).

Well familiar with a lot of the greater scientists having more than a tiny religious streak, as well as a lot of them being religious yet having serious beefs with the clergy.
The very notion of secularism as being acceptable have only the last few decades once again started to arise on some of the more civilized parts of the globe
</arrogantsuperioritycomplex>

[steellord]

For myself, I actually was born in a christian household, and grew up believing in god. rather strongly in fact, i was a devout believer, even trying to convert classmates. (much to their secret annoyance, im sure.) i read the bible, went to church and even wednesday night gatherings every week. i prayed at night and was nauseatingly well behaved, not even swearing. I didn't even know what words like bitch meant until i was in my mid teens, and when i heard someone mentioning condoms i thought they were talking about condo houses. THATS how innocent i was. in middle school.

then i hit puberty, and started to notice some of the guys in my classes. it felt completely normal, until i told one of the guys he looked nice. that was when i first realized what puberty was and quickly discovered that the new feelings i was having meant i was gay... a sin according to my own beliefs.

Before then i didn't even know what being gay really meant. all i knew was that they were "bad people" and sinners and that they were going to hell. when i discovered i was suddenly one of those "bad people" i did the first thing that came to mind: prayed for god to heal me of my sin, to help me get past it. thoughts of Job and his trials flashed through my head, and i was determined to get through this trial... and then a year later i still was the same, unable to stop my feelings, fighting against what felt so natural to me. then my parents discovered i was gay. after a terrifying and angry confrontation they decided to help me get past this, which led to more prayer, fasting, and even a church exorcism. none of it helped, but for their sake i pretended i was getting better... and also because i was afraid to acknowledge it wasnt. forward a year or so later, as a high school freshman, i was still gay and hiding, and utterly miserable, to the point of contemplating suicide. the only reasons i didn't attempt it were because i was afraid of dying, and ironically, because suicide was also a sin against god. The crisis built, while in the meantime, i was essentially a loner without friends and hiding in my books during recess. Then one day, a girl came up to me and commented on the book i was reading, saying how she loved the author and suggested some other great stories i might enjoy. we started chatting and before i knew it i had a new friend. That friend then introduced me to her two other friends, all 3 who turned out to be misfits as well. we hit it off and soon we had our own little group meetings in the library (where the girl actually worked as an aide) and elsewhere. being the good little christian i was, i tried to convert them, much to their amusement. eventually a year or so later i found out that all three of them were wiccans. (there are a surprising number of them in north carolina!) now, at this point i was feeling somewhat disillusioned with my own beliefs, and then i got punched with the realization that the three best friends i ever had, who were the kindest and most honest people ive ever met....were essentially the antithesis of my beliefs. they were the ultimate sinners, devil worshippers! (i'm sure they would have found this classification highly amusing) ...and yet, they were also the only people who ever treated me with kindness, who treated me as a normal person instead of some freakish beast that had to be avoided.

at that point something snapped. I realized just how sheltered and blinded by my own beliefs i had been my whole life. my life of absolute, black and white, had been shattered into a million pieces of shades of new sensations. suddenly i was no longer seeing black and white, but perceiving shadings and color to the world and its inhabitants. it was utterly terrifying, and yet... it felt more right than anything i had ever felt before. i decided that maybe i was being closeminded about my beliefs and started researching what being gay actually meant, not just from the bibles view, but from science's point of view. i was outraged and relieved to realize that being gay was natural, that it wasn't changeable, that i was perfectly fine being who i was. i started looking into other things i had been told was wrong all my life, starting with wiccans. i found out it was it's own religion, and was highly flexible in its beliefs. it wasn't all about devil worship (that was satanists, and even they aren't all about devil worship!) but rather the god and goddess, who could take on many forms. because of this, one could be both a wiccan and another religion, because wiccas beliefs didn't conflict with other religions... you were just worshipping the god/goddess in one of their many forms when you worshipped another religion. there was also an appeal in the threefold rule they followed- "do what thou wilst, but harm none, lest it come back to thee threefold". simple to follow, to the point. allowing freedom of choice, but warning of consequences you bring upon yourself if you used that freedom to the detriment of others. no wonder they were so nice to everyone, haha.

At this point magic suddenly stopped being a terrifying dark art of wicked satanists and started becoming something that sounded more and more... friendly? right? certainly it had its appeal, and i started reading books on mythology and fantasy often, and without guilt. i fell in love with all the different stories and lore from different cultures, their views of the world that colored their stories. then one of my bastard friends introduced me to final fantasy VI (III) and got me addicted. XP from my reading up on magic and its many forms i got the name psion, another term for psychic. the name stuck with me all these years. you could say its my true name, as the old me had died, and a new me had been reborn from my trials and acceptance of who i was.

eventually i started playing hooky going to church, as i started feeling the sermons ring false, feeling like i was living a lie when i was there. i had seen a world of colors, a rondo of light and shadow, and going back to a world of flat absolutes was utterly stifling. having gained a new perspective, losing it even temporarily was like having a limb amputated every week. eventually my parents found out and confronted me about it. i calmly told them that i no longer believed in their god, which led to more screaming on their part and accusations, including that i was gay. i confirmed with them i still was and was proud of the fact, which naturally caused them to blew a few gaskets. they eventually stormed off, and while shaken that i had actually stood up to them, felt proud and relieved that i no longer had to pretend i was something i wasn't. i was also utterly terrified at what i had done... i had completely cast off from god. there was no turning back. i had confessed the truth of my feelings to my parents and to myself.

that feeling like i was falling out of a sky lasted for a week or so. at that point i realized nothing bad had happened, god had not smote me in his fury, and i felt freer than i ever had in my life. i suddenly realized i wasn't falling but flying. that was the point i decided id never again fall into that same trap of absolute belief, of seeing only one side of life and people. it wasn't easy, and especially at first i started falling into that trap of absolutes (thanks, Ayn Rand! =.= ) but no longer constrained by my religion, i was free to use my imagination to try and put myself in the shoes of all sides of an issue, rather than what i thought was morally acceptable.

one of my musings led me to ponder what the "sentient jewel" in final fantasy XI really was. how could a rock be alive and sentient, a jewel that glittered in all shades of light? eventually i came to the conclusion that the crystal is us. each of us presents a facet of ourselves to the world at any time, whether it's our happy side, our anger, our jealousy, or other aspects of our personality. but those are just a part of us. just like a gem is made of many faces, but is one whole, we are the whole of our many different aspects. taking that conclusion further, i realized that giant sentient jewel was the entirety of life. all creatures, and each of us, is a facet on that jewel, and yet we all are connected as a greater whole, shining our light upon the Void, banishing the darkness. each of us flashes our own color, and it is that multiplicity that makes life so wonderful. diamonds are so beautiful not because they are clear, but because they wink with a million shades of light. without that, they'd just be pieces of clear rock.

That led me to conclude that love was wanting to help someone become what they want to be, not what you wished them to be. a good example of what happens when you try to force the latter is found all over southern california with coppiced trees vs those that are allowed to grow into their normal form,with some minor pruning to help them grow healthy. (hint: the former look like green lollipops) it also led me to conclude that when you try to force others to take on your own definition of whats right, try to make them become the same color as you, not only do you harm them, but you harm the whole, just as if you introduced a flaw into a crystal.

So while i don't really believe in "god" you could say i believe in that mothercrystal of life, a life that encompasses everything. i can't say i really worship it... because how do you worship something you're an intrensic part of? that just feels silly. but i do celebrate life in its many forms and embrace it, marvel in its infinite and constantly changing complexity. to live is to change and grow. to stay still and constantly worship a belief formed of words thousands of years set in stone,feels to me like you might as well be a stiff corpse yourself.

I think it's like 50% of lgbt who are atheist, far higher than others. Once you start to question your place in your birth religion, it all crashes down. Little kids are gullible and easily manipulated, hence they join their parents' religion, but people realize they're gay right at the time in life they start to question authority anyway. Probably parallel reason for the high suicide rate - they identify as gay right at the time bullying and teenage angst takes hold

I can't relate to your mothercrystal thing and tbh my first thought was it's crazy, but then i think of the bajillion virgin birth resurrection freaks and...well at least yours won't drive anyone to suicide

[Rhyis.]

I can't relate to your mothercrystal thing and tbh my first thought was it's crazy

'cause it is.

[Zetanio]

'cause it is.

This right here.

[steellord]

'cause it is.

yeah, well, so is all religion

[Zetanio]

Same stupid shit, different form.

[thetruepandagod]

Same stupid shit, different form.

At least most religions have the benefit of coming from several thousand years in the past when 90% of life was inexplicable madness. Some vanadiel crystal shit in this day and age is several shades removed from your local religious persons.


I will crusade for windurst though. I will tear asunder the jueno globalists, flay the heathens of bastok, and purge the pompous inbred monarchy of the dhalmels.

[Rhyis.]

Exactly lol. I can understand why people follow religion simply because they have history. There's a certain mystique there.
If you're taking life lessons from a video game, you better at least be high as shit while you're doing so.

[steellord]

At least most religions have the benefit of coming from several thousand years in the past when 90% of life was inexplicable madness. Some vanadiel crystal shit in this day and age is several shades removed from your local religious persons.

You got that half right. The religions as concocted back then had that excuse, other than when they were flatly lying about miracles 'witnessed' The religious persons in 21st century certainly do not. Their only excuse is 4 writers who couldn't have even been eye witnesses said so. Which begs the question why the 21st century "prophets" claiming to heal the sick and etc don't have 1 bil followers too.

[steellord]

Exactly lol. I can understand why people follow religion simply because they have history. There's a certain mystique there.
If you're taking life lessons from a video game, you better at least be high as shit while you're doing so.

History is something we can research, not participate in. Except you can't do either with religion because it's all faker than the tooth fairy. Life lessons from a 2000 yo book of fables written by goat fuckers that's been translated, redacted, and mistranslated (often intentionally) over and over is pretty damn pathetic loser-dom to an objective person. Yeah, there's a spiritual genetic component. So go forge your own path and don't be a terrified (of death) unthinking lazy twat about it

I personally DGAF if someone blindly follows a populist religion, but it's the being a twat about it like so many are - just read what Psion endured again - that draws my scorn

Even something like my neighbor at the time who put up a sign "Jesus not Obama" on her tree (later fell into her house), she may as well have put "follow the mothercrystal"

[Spicyryan]

Where the motherfuck is OP.

The perfect troll.

[Dimmauk]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed Psion's post.

[Spicyryan]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed Psion's post.

I honestly skipped it. All this talk of walls burns a guy out.

[Egon]

I'll bite.

I identify myself as a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Bible is from the Holy Spirit and that it is perfect in it's native language of Greek and Hebrew. I do believe that there are some items that get lost in translation in other languages, but can be easily explained. I believe that all sin is bad, but that all sin is equal. I believe that stealing a candy bar from a gas station is just as bad as two guys having sex. We all sin, but what that sin is can be different from person to person. I believe that we can never be good enough to get to Heaven, and we need the Grace of God to save us. Faith is how you start your journey, but after a while, after you have experienced God's grace, it becomes knowledge instead of blind faith. I have been given a lot of grace here on Earth, and because I have seen God's love affect me directly, I quit praying for faith, but instead I give thanks for it.

I am creating a video series called "Son and Stars" with the main goal of outreach to millennials. I asked what I asked because I thought BG would have a nice sample of millennials and younger Gen X'ers (like myself, I'm 33). And I'm glad I did. I thought I would get a lot more scientific responses, but as I can now see, I was wrong. I was really surprised to see all the responses talking about Catholics, but looking back, I'm dumb for thinking that. The Catholic church is a minority where I live and in most of the south, but I forgot that its huge in the bigger cities. I again want to thank everyone for opening up to me, and to the rest of BG. Like I said in the before, I am not here to preach or convert, that will only get this thread deleted/locked. If you want to talk in detail, you can send me a PM and I will send you my email address/skype name (the email account I have linked to my BG account has been dead for years).

[Psion]

I think it's like 50% of lgbt who are atheist, far higher than others. Once you start to question your place in your birth religion, it all crashes down. Little kids are gullible and easily manipulated, hence they join their parents' religion, but people realize they're gay right at the time in life they start to question authority anyway. Probably parallel reason for the high suicide rate - they identify as gay right at the time bullying and teenage angst takes hold

I can't relate to your mothercrystal thing and tbh my first thought was it's crazy, but then i think of the bajillion virgin birth resurrection freaks and...well at least yours won't drive anyone to suicide

lol, don't take the thing too literally. i'm not believing in a physical mothercrystal, it's a metaphor for the divine that connects all life. the whole food chain thing is another example- most people don't think of the food chain as a literal chain connecting animals together. however, the food chain is just a part of that connectivity - critter eats critter eats critter eats plant eats dead critter is only one of the many ways life is connected. plants and planktons symbiosis with animals breathing CO2 and giving back oxygen is another connection. so are earthworms digesting dead leaves to produce mulch to feed plants being part of the food chain, yet they also aerate the soil and help allow water and air to reach plants roots, helping them thrive.

by mothercrystal im referring to the totality of all those connections, with each of us being a facet of that, each of us unique but part of a greater whole.

[Greatguardian]

I'll bite.

I identify myself as a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Bible is from the Holy Spirit and that it is perfect in it's native language of Greek and Hebrew. I do believe that there are some items that get lost in translation in other languages, but can be easily explained. I believe that all sin is bad, but that all sin is equal. I believe that stealing a candy bar from a gas station is just as bad as two guys having sex. We all sin, but what that sin is can be different from person to person. I believe that we can never be good enough to get to Heaven, and we need the Grace of God to save us. Faith is how you start your journey, but after a while, after you have experienced God's grace, it becomes knowledge instead of blind faith. I have been given a lot of grace here on Earth, and because I have seen God's love affect me directly, I quit praying for faith, but instead I give thanks for it.

I am creating a video series called "Son and Stars" with the main goal of outreach to millennials. I asked what I asked because I thought BG would have a nice sample of millennials and younger Gen X'ers (like myself, I'm 33). And I'm glad I did. I thought I would get a lot more scientific responses, but as I can now see, I was wrong. I was really surprised to see all the responses talking about Catholics, but looking back, I'm dumb for thinking that. The Catholic church is a minority where I live and in most of the south, but I forgot that its huge in the bigger cities. I again want to thank everyone for opening up to me, and to the rest of BG. Like I said in the before, I am not here to preach or convert, that will only get this thread deleted/locked. If you want to talk in detail, you can send me a PM and I will send you my email address/skype name (the email account I have linked to my BG account has been dead for years).

Most anyone who screams "cuz science!" when talking about faith either have no scientific training or little to no understanding of science. Millennials are largely old enough to understand that the scientific process is independent from faith and the reasons for faith. Even Descartes' arguments for faith from first principles and Pascal's wager are at best a case for deism rather than any particular religious philosophy.

Personally, I don't think it's terribly important what you believe. I thought the purpose of this thread was to explore why one believes or doesn't believe. We've all talked about why we don't believe. It's your turn to talk about why you do.