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  1. #21
    Impossiblu
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    Thing is, while Berserk is on a shorter cooldown now, it doesn't line up with anything. Unchained/RtiB and Infuriate will be usable at best once every 2 Berserks, limiting its burst application before even considering the 20% attack power decrease. Honestly wish they didn't fuck with it.

    And I don't want it to be king of the hill, if I lived in a perfect world I'd want all 3 tanks to be viable. But it stands to reason that those of us who are passionate about the job are a bit miffed that we had the only piece of utility that we offered stripped off with nothing given to replace it whatsoever on top of some pretty big potential damage nerfs. Warrior has never played like a tank should play, but now it's even further removed from the role than ever before, and the only reason it can be considered a tank at all comes down to access to Enmity accrual tools and Inner Beast. I will admit that WAR probably won't be as far down the hole as PLD was for a majority of Heavensward, but it doesn't take much to get pushed out of the meta in this game.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by solracht View Post
    Having the same penalty mechanic doesn't necessarily mean they're penalized the same way. WAR's resource spenders are tied to stances and are on the GCD (unlike PLD's) and WAR's on-demand mitigation skill is tied to their tank stance (unlike PLD's). Going into Stormblood, WAR's gameplay looks incredibly clunky unless the encounter allows you to completely ignore half of your toolkit, which I find problematic. The other tanks don't suffer from this.

    That's a significant gameplay nerf coming from Heavensward and while I'll grant maybe they didn't actively aim to do this (willing to bet they just c+v'd PLD's mechanic on WAR with zero gameplay considerations), it still makes their quote about "not wanting to push warriors back" invalid. Note that I think stance penalties should exist, but they should also be tailored to each tank. That's very much not the way it feels right now.

    There's also more nerfs than what you've listed: MT burst enmity generation and opener DPS are both lower because Infuriate is only usable in combat and Berserk has been nerfed. Not that it'd matter because Unchained now has a huge opportunity cost attached due to sharing recast with Inner Release. Either way, WAR's utility as the pulling tank has been nerfed.

    Storm's Path had to go, yes, but that doesn't mean WAR's partywide mitigation utility also had to go with it: they should've replaced Path with something that couldn't have a 100% uptime to at least compete with PLD party mitigation skills and DRK/PLD's single target mitigation/shielding skills.
    I mean, WAR still has Vengeance and cross-role Rampart for all purpose mitigation regardless of stance, so I'm not sure what the real issue is there. Thrill of Battle was also boosted from 10% HP > 20% HP, which is a pretty sizable increase. PLDs and DRKs also still require using up a GCD + MP in order to actually stance dance- while I assume WAR is still oGCD.

    Unchained pulling probably isn't that necessary anymore what with every tank getting Shirk, the tank version of Shadewalker, as a cross-role ability. So in that regard, I don't think it's too bad.

    Warrior also lost Storm's Path, but every tank also got Reprisal from cross-role too. Doesn't that count towards it's missing PT mitigation, despite it not being unique to WAR?

    I feel like a lot of these grievances are what the Cross-Role abilities are for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    Thing is, while Berserk is on a shorter cooldown now, it doesn't line up with anything. Unchained/RtiB and Infuriate will be usable at best once every 2 Berserks, limiting its burst application before even considering the 20% attack power decrease. Honestly wish they didn't fuck with it.

    And I don't want it to be king of the hill, if I lived in a perfect world I'd want all 3 tanks to be viable. But it stands to reason that those of us who are passionate about the job are a bit miffed that we had the only piece of utility that we offered stripped off with nothing given to replace it whatsoever on top of some pretty big potential damage nerfs. Warrior has never played like a tank should play, but now it's even further removed from the role than ever before, and the only reason it can be considered a tank at all comes down to access to Enmity accrual tools and Inner Beast. I will admit that WAR probably won't be as far down the hole as PLD was for a majority of Heavensward, but it doesn't take much to get pushed out of the meta in this game.
    This is where I'm somewhat irritated.

    WAR as it will be will always be viable as a tank- there is absolutely nothing stopping it from functioning in a reasonable, maybe even great capacity from what I'm seeing.

    You say stuff like "it's easy to be pushed out of the meta" and "why would you ever want to bring a WAR instead of PLD DRK", well then fucking change jobs! Haha.

    If the meta is so important to you, and if you honestly value cutting edge efficiency so much, wouldn't that be the right course of action? Isn't that part of what the Job Change system is there for?

    Or, if you like WAR because you just like it so much and you've stuck by it for so long you'll most likely just make it work anyway! Potency and efficiency and whatever be damned. You're still gonna tank things like a only a tank class can, you're still gonna do WAR type things (albeit, with a bit more of a challenge now that there are actual repercussions).

    I dunno, your post feels like you're aware that it's not really going to be a big deal in the long run- and you say you don't want WAR to be "King of the Hill"- but it sounds like you really want it to.

    Some one explain to me, why the meta is really that important? Is it actually that big a deal in FFXIV? This doesn't exactly feel like the grave DPS difference between a FFXI SAM and a C+ H2H PUP exactly.

  3. #23
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    unless they change what kind of content they make i dont see big changes besides the battle system refreshment


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I mean, WAR still has Vengeance and cross-role Rampart for all purpose mitigation regardless of stance, so I'm not sure what the real issue is there. Thrill of Battle was also boosted from 10% HP > 20% HP, which is a pretty sizable increase. PLDs and DRKs also still require using up a GCD + MP in order to actually stance dance- while I assume WAR is still oGCD.
    Thrill of Battle has been 20% for years...

    That aside, the real issue is WAR uses gauge as part of its core rotational gameplay. PLD doesn't. Having the same "lose half of your resources when you switch" mechanic on both jobs penalizes them very differently and really fucks over WAR in more ways than just potency loss, and significantly more than PLD. That was the point of what you quoted.

    To address what you brought up: DRK/PLD have their own regular mitigation skills too, but now they also have low CD, near-zero cost mitigation skills that can either be paired with those, or used sparingly to fill any sort of gap without having to use tank stances. Meanwhile WAR's IB (and Equilibrium to an extent) are now borderline unusable and have really high opportunity costs in any situation where you're mainly tanking in Deliverance. To note that I don't think this disparity will really be a dealbreaker unless boss timings/tuning change significantly but we'll see.

    As for WAR stances being oGCD, that really doesn't mean much anymore. An example of going from Deliverance to Defiance:
    • You need to very carefully plan resource usage, more than any other tank and your stakes for messing up are way higher (10 gauge = 100 base pot).
    • You're forced to stay in Defiance for 10s, which now also means in order to switch back you either lose gauge generated in said 10s, or you double down and stay for longer until you can spend it (which means using more GCDs while under a damage penalty).
    Saddest part is in spite of the limitations/cost, Defiance still can't be used as a makeshift mitigation skill like Grit or Shield Oath because it has no effect until a healer uses a GCD on you and now the (very simplified) opportunity cost of Defiance+IB is a loss of 500 base potency (need 100 gauge pre-switch) plus 200 for using the remaining gauge on IB instead of Fell Cleave, plus all the damage lost described in the second bullet point above (which I don't really want to math out). Feel free to address/correct this math.

    Ultimately stance-dancing just feels really clunky, both compared to what WAR had in HW and what the other tanks have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    Unchained pulling probably isn't that necessary anymore what with every tank getting Shirk, the tank version of Shadewalker, as a cross-role ability. So in that regard, I don't think it's too bad.
    Unchained pulling would be good utility with or without Shirk. Combining both would give you a larger cushion, and if using both is ever overkill then WAR could could let his co-tank free up a cross role skill. No idea why you think the role system is relevant, WAR still lost utility even if every tank has Shirk but thanks for pointing out that other tanks gained something from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    Warrior also lost Storm's Path, but every tank also got Reprisal from cross-role too. Doesn't that count towards it's missing PT mitigation, despite it not being unique to WAR?
    No, Reprisal is available to all tanks now, which means it's part of the baseline against which all tanks are compared. PLD/DRK are still ahead in party utility because they have party mitigation skills on top of Reprisal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    I feel like a lot of these grievances are what the Cross-Role abilities are for.
    I feel like you're barely understanding what these grievances are or where they're coming from and you chose to shoehorn the cross role system into the discussion for some reason.

  5. #25
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rionel View Post
    Some one explain to me, why the meta is really that important? Is it actually that big a deal in FFXIV? This doesn't exactly feel like the grave DPS difference between a FFXI SAM and a C+ H2H PUP exactly.
    I actually really wonder about this from time to time as well. Only about 1~3% of the games population (maybe less?) can actually take great advantage from having the most efficient party set up imaginable, with tank/healer DPS included. And this is usually people who have already cleared everything and are working on speed kills of the top content.

    The much larger problem with endgame for just about everyone else is dealing with and overcoming the social aspect and norms that comes with raiding in this game -- dealing with people who want to win content, but need to get better, dealing with jerkoffs and flakes who mess up the coordination and planning of fights, and the general round robin of replacing members who are burnt out or no longer have the time to raid.

    Real meta is actually finding 8 solid people to run content with these days it seems, especially after A3S.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    I actually really wonder about this from time to time as well. Only about 1~3% of the games population (maybe less?) can actually take great advantage from having the most efficient party set up imaginable, with tank/healer DPS included. And this is usually people who have already cleared everything and are working on speed kills of the top content.
    If you disregard speedkills, the meta is only really prevalent for the two months or so (mainly because we suck and overgearing isn't really possible). Part of it is just because no one wants to feel like their favorite job is being carried through content. For example, a lot of PLDs switched to DRK in A12S because they could feel themselves being carried. This isn't really the case now, but it was a common grievance back when A12S was relevant.

    The other part of it is just job balance. You may have put a lot of work in one job, but if it's outclassed by another job by a noticeable amount, people will feel cheated. A good example is MNK vs DRG. In the 2.x series, MNK was considered viable. In the 3.x series, MNK was considered garbage tier. A lot of people had to switch off MNK either because their statics demanded it or out of personal desire to not hinder their group by staying on their favorite job.

  7. #27
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Real meta is actually finding 8 solid people to run content with these days it seems, especially after A3S.
    This is quite literally the only thing that matters in a game where you can instantly swap to any job to make use of any goddamn gear drop that falls into your lap. You win the prize.

    Anything else is just hurt feelings over the specific scenario that can be easily rectified by pushing the button to switch to any of your other leveled, fully God-geared (because you're ultra-hardcore and are pushing the ultra-hardcore content, ya?) jobs.

    I get it. Its your monthly fee and you pay up, so you have a right to complain about whatever you want. I get that and I support it, but don't think for a moment that it doesn't make the situation any less humorous to others who don't share your... ehrm... passion.

  8. #28
    Impossiblu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    humorous to others who don't share your... ehrm... passion.
    Hilarious coming from the dude whose only contribution to these discussions so far has been based around flowery poetry and feelings tbh. You've been spouting hyperbole and prose about smashing in faces and dancing around battlefields and how much you luv it for the last 3 weeks, basically a Draylo-lite, and you wanna come here and say you're removed from those of us who are passionate about WAR? My dude, please. Nothing wrong with enjoying something and wanting to express it but pro tip: if you want to talk shit about something, try to at least make it seem like you aren't doing that thing first.

  9. #29
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    I'm confused, since when is people's take on game balance "lol just change jobs" instead of actually wanting them balanced for content that matters?

  10. #30
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    Hilarious coming from the dude whose only contribution to these discussions so far has been based around flowery poetry and feelings tbh.
    My contribution is to remind people to wait for the patch notes, especially since we saw a 3-month old build.

    Oh, and to laugh a bit about the uproar. But do go on.

  11. #31
    Impossiblu
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    Well unlike you, I have little to no faith in SE. You can say you have hope in them higher than ever before, but I'm looking at it logically and using the last 3 years of bullshit to support it rather than attempting to cling to a glimmer of hope that a company whose bottom line is making as much money for as little effort as possible is actually going to care about my enjoyment of their product. It'll be a passable experience for a couple of months with some friends, but I'm not going to attempt to delude myself into believing Stormblood will be what they said Heavensward was going to be way back when. They've fed me bullshit too many times for me to take it and believe that it's chocolate.

    I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm very doubtful.

  12. #32
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
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    My entire angle is that, people should be comfortable on whatever job they play in this game because it's actually legitimately balanced, unlike FFXI (and other games, as well as this one in earlier iterations). Rionel said it best earlier in this thread -- the difference between some jobs aren't as wide as say... a SAM vs a PUP for content in FFXI. Such a thing isn't going to suddenly change in 4.0.

    That isn't to discount people's general lamentations however, WAR is basically losing it's identity and becoming more uniform with beside PLD and DRK. Should probably wait until the expansion drops however, as we don't even know how the attack-stance tanking meta will even change going forward (aside from the beast gauge, of course).

  13. #33
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    Considering the only thing that matters is Savage anyway, we have to wait till then, but normally people are a lot quicker to be at minimum cautiously optimistic, rather than shoveling praise down Yoshi's throat forgetting the past only to get a reminder slapped across their face sooner rather than later.

    But I guess it's just human nature, falling into the hype can cause people to forget things. Unless you're people like on the OF who barely touch any content as is so they feel everything is perfect no matter what.

  14. #34
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    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    The argument people are making is that it really *isn't* always terribly well-balanced. The state PLD spent Heavensward in was an embarrassment. PLD wasn't just worse than the other two tanks, it was so objectively inferior that people were basically forced to switch off it. WAR isn't even close to being as bad off as PLD was but the point stands that some jobs really do get fucked over, and when it happens the precedent so far has been "you're fucked until the next expansion." In WHM's case (and maybe MNK's) it may be an even longer timeline.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The argument people are making is that it really *isn't* always terribly well-balanced. The state PLD spent Heavensward in was an embarrassment. PLD wasn't just worse than the other two tanks, it was so objectively inferior that people were basically forced to switch off it. WAR isn't even close to being as bad off as PLD was but the point stands that some jobs really do get fucked over, and when it happens the precedent so far has been "you're fucked until the next expansion." In WHM's case (and maybe MNK's) it may be an even longer timeline.
    I don't think anyone who rode the DRK-WAR train to high deeps and the glory of Alexander Savage when relevant is even remotely upset about PLD getting the desperately needed improvements it frankly should have gotten no later than 3.2. What they are pissed about however, is all of what DRK and WAR were throughout Heavensward getting gutted for.. whatever the fuck this is now, especially WAR. I still think they should have left WAR alone (nerf or maybe replace Path with something else) and improved the stance dancing experience for DRK and PLD (ontop of any further improvements like what they'd done so far).

    We're never going to achieve absolute balance, but if PLD launched as is with the information we have, it'd probably be pretty close to relative balance against virtually intact versions of DRK and WAR circa Heavensward. It would probably be necessary to tailor some numbers slightly upward post-launch, but it wouldn't result in the same fucking situation we had in Heavensward, but this time starring WAR. Buffing the numbers for WAR is only part of the problem with what it looks like right now; there's fundamentally retarded design decisions and nigh-worthless abilities (hello Shake it Off, Onslaught, Upheval) that would have actually been great back in Heavensward, but almost assuredly will serve no meaningful purpose due to "balance."

    I'm not really on board with the "GAUGES FOR EVERYONE!" thing either; they frankly feel very tacked-on for everything that isn't a DPS-role (and maybe WAR, I guess). But, I guess this is what we're stuck with.

  16. #36

    The fact that they radically changed the jobs as well as changed...pretty much everything people have been asking them to change outside of the actual base game components (such as content and the base foundation of the battle system) makes it look like they are trying hard to listen and react rather than just doing whatever and licking up people's salty tears while they collect their $12.95/mo.

    It's enough to make even the worst cynic raise an eyebrow, at least. I'm not saying we should all worship SE now but some of the mad over an expansion that hasn't even been released yet is actually pretty ridiculous.

    Getting mad before you know all the details or how anything plays or synergizes, y'all are just some jaded sons of bitches :D

  17. #37
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    I don't know who was asking for what was done to DRK and WAR this round, but alright. About the only thing I even have positive reception for is the PLD improvements; everything done to DRK and WAR seems either neutral or very negative. The Blackest Night is a pretty good addition to DRK utility, but then there's a myriad of other things I really dislike about locking Blood Price behind Grit, etc.

  18. #38
    Impossiblu
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silenka View Post
    y'all are just some jaded sons of bitches :D
    I wonder whose fault that is.

    Couldn't possibly be God Emperor Yoshida...

  19. #39
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    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    Honestly I feel like the meter idea suits DRK and WAR way better than PLD, in theory. The implementation may end up leaving something to be desired though. With only two abilities that use it (Intervention and Sheltron) and only being able to build it through AA or blocking depending on which oath, it just feels really shoe-horned into PLD.

  20. #40
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Meters were only created so people wouldn't spend 90% of every fight staring at their bars instead of at the actual fight in question. How much it'll actually help... who can say at this point in time. I get why they did it, though. WoW could still use something along those lines; its so easy to tunnel vision and only stare at your hotbars until its time to move left or right.

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