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  1. #1
    Old Odin
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    Red Mage General - Be Just or Be Red

    So for the uninitiated, I've been making the comparison that RDM is basically 3.X's MCH as a caster, with melee-range burst/finisher. If you don't know 3.X MCH then... welp.

    Dualcast is a centralizing trait around RDM's style: every spell with a cast time will generate a Dualcast proc which makes the immediate next cast instant. Note that if you Swiftcast a spell that ordinarily HAS a cast time, Dualcast will NOT activate although Swiftcast is still okay for skipping a proc spell or Jolt. Dualcast will also cancel if you autoattack or use pretty much any other action. Even Sprint. So weave that crap in after every even spell.

    As an aside, Vercure can be used to charge a Dualcast proc outside of combat.

    The job gauge mechanic is based around the Balance Gauge; this encourages/forces you to spam your 2 primary "combo" chains about equally (if one mana is 30 higher than the other, the gauge will turn that color and the low mana's gain will be halved until it catches up). A bunch of RDM spells generate mana on use; Jolt and Impact are neutral and raise both (as does the aoe spell Scatter), while Veraero/Verstone raise white and Verthunder/Verfire raise black. The first in each pair there (Aero/Thunder) give 11 mana and have a 50% chance of getting you a proc that lets you cast Stone/Fire, which gives 9 mana.

    Stone/Fire, Jolt (filler, +3 both mana), and Impact (procs from Jolt, +4 both mana) are all normal cast times and "low" MP cost. Aero/Thunder have long cast times (5s) and slightly higher MP costs.

    RDM's cast pattern will pretty much always be:

    1) Use procs, or filler if not available.
    1a) Verstone or Verfire procs
    1b) Impact procs
    1c) Jolt
    2) Use Veraero or Verthunder, via Dualcast, depending on which mana you need more of.

    When both Black and White mana are 80+, it's time to melee burst. Rush with Corps-a-corps, then 123. At this point you can either backstep and use your finisher spell, or use spell and then backstep. Backstep is optional I guess but it's free damage and autoattacks mess with Dualcast anyways. Alternately if you're already in melee range you can use them the other way around. AA damage is extremely minor so don't worry too much about being thrown out of position.

    The melee combo generates a spell finisher "combo ender", either Verholy or Verflare. You are free to use either one you want and have a 50% chance of a free Stone/Fire, but if you use the correct one (Holy if black is higher, Flare if white is higher) you get that proc 100%.

    Now both the black and white sides of both "combo" sets have equal potency. In fact all 3 proc-based spells have the same potency (270). There's literally no difference other than managing 2 different sets of procs and maintaining equal-ish mana. Procs all last 30 seconds so you're free to hold one that threatens to mess up mana balance.

    tl;dr

    1. (Stone/Fire) > (Impact) > Jolt. As priority order.
    2. Aero/Stone with dualcast
    spam until 80 mana, swishy slash, do it again

    As far as off-gcds go, Fleche and Contre Sixte are generic attacking ogcds, Acceleration guarantees a proc of Stone/Fire off of Aero/Stone once every 35s, and Manafication doubles current mana values + resets timers on Corps a Corps (gapcloser) and Displacement (backstep). You'd use Manafication when both mana are 40+, obviously. Finally, Embolden is an AoE buff that raises your magic damage and nearby party members' physical damage (10% each), and drops off over its 20s duration (8>6>4>2).

    RDM has pretty decent AoE as well. Spam Scatter (100pot), every 30 mana you can throw out Enhanced Moulinet (200, fast gcd). Scatter has a 25% chance of making the next Scatter give 8 mana each instead of 3.

    As a minor note, Embolden does not buff your melee WSs at all but it does not seem to buff Fleche and Contre Sixte either. The most optimal time to start it would be in your melee combo (to give melee DPS the physical buff) before using Verflare or Verholy. Pre-68/70 you could just use it wherever I guess.

    ---

    Brief aside on mana: while the gauge balancing is a factor, also consider just that every spell generates certain -total- amounts out mana, which can weigh into your decisions on what is or isn't worth casting (and why Jolt is always last priority).

    Verthunder/Aero: 11 Black/White
    Verfire/stone: 9 Black/White
    Impact: 4 Black + 4 White
    Jolt, Scatter: 3 Black + 3 White, Scatter having 25% chance to have next cast be 8 Black + 8 White.

    Verflare/Verholy: 21 Black/White
    -Can be considered a small refund on your 80+80 investment in the melee combo, plus a free proc of the opposite side to balance out your +21.

    Note also that (not personally confirmed yet) if you have equal mana going into the Flare/Holy finisher, neither will have 100% chance of giving your respective proc spell. You must have at least 1 point imbalance to get that 100%.

    ---

    Overall I'm having fun with job but I can't begin to speculate on its future. RDM/BLM could be a strong caster pair since RDM will appreciate a steady supply of MP, as they lack ANY job-native MP recovery except for the cross-role Lucid Dreaming. RDM does benefit from having Swiftcast every other cast due to Dualcast so it's about as mobile as BRD or MCH in 3.0 were, if not slightly more.

  2. #2
    Relic Shield
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    RDM's MP costs are so low that you shouldn't have to worry about MP loss. I've only been using Lucid Dreaming for if I died or for cutting my threat down. So having a BLM in the party comp does nothing for us.

    Swiftcast seems to be worth using as you can Dualcast + Swiftcast to skip having to use a jolt if nothing procced.

  3. #3
    Ironing this Thread
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  4. #4
    Relic Shield
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    Also I've tested Fleche, and it seems to not be affected by Embolden at all.

    Spoiler: show
    (Fleche)
    5659
    5503
    5216
    5527
    5570
    5223
    5713
    5356
    5710
    5283

    Avg: 54,760

    (Fleche + [email protected] stacks)
    5280
    5260
    5439
    5339
    5297
    5371
    5516
    5654
    5701
    5464

    Avg: 54,321

    Averages show a ~1% Difference.


    Someone else has also tested the oGCDs (Fleche, Contre, Corps, Displacement) and it seems that they're considered Melee Piercing. So it will be affected by Disembowel. I assume the regular melee combo is also considered melee piercing.

  5. #5
    Running Hell
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    For the record, Auto-Attacks do not cancel Dualcast (it's either a typo or they missed it) so you have no real reason not to be engaging in melee range. Ideally any melee burst would begin with Displacement followed immediately by Corps-a-corps to regain the distance otherwise if you end it with Displacement you have to waste time running back into melee range which is time spent not casting or auto-attacking.

  6. #6
    Relic Shield
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    Yeah auto attacks do no affect dual cast, which means you have free movement. That pretty much means that Corp/Displacement can be used on cooldown. Do not use Corp to "initiate" a melee phase.

  7. #7
    Old Odin
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    Whoops. Serves me right for not testing. Corps/Disp on cooldown, use Dualcasts to run back into AA range. (edit: or Disp/Corps starting from melee range)

    Worth noting that Sprint will eat Dualcast though. And the melee combo is worded like it's a physical piercing without mana but it says it deals "unaspected" damage when Enhanced so I'm inclined to believe it becomes magical when you would actually use it. No hard proof tho.

  8. #8
    Puppetmaster
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    idunno if i'd bother using corps-a-corps on cooldown, you do gain a low amount of potency over time but in exchange you're having to deal with mechanics that target ranged interfering with your melee since you're going to be in range for more than the time it takes to do your melee combo, whereas if you corps ---> melee combo --> displacement you're in and out in under 3 seconds. and if you ever mess up and think you have a dual cast proc and try to move when you didn't, you're immediately losing out on more potency than you'd ever gain.

    maybe for absolute bleeding edge cases where you HAVE to squeeze out every last drop of damage you can, but otherwise it's such a small gain for such an increased risk/hassle that i'd say it's not worth it. for the same reason I wouldn't stay in melee, since red mage's auto attacks scale with STR it's an extremely petite damage gain.

  9. #9
    Running Hell
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carth View Post
    Also I've tested Fleche, and it seems to not be affected by Embolden at all.

    Spoiler: show
    (Fleche)
    5659
    5503
    5216
    5527
    5570
    5223
    5713
    5356
    5710
    5283

    Avg: 54,760

    (Fleche + [email protected] stacks)
    5280
    5260
    5439
    5339
    5297
    5371
    5516
    5654
    5701
    5464

    Avg: 54,321

    Averages show a ~1% Difference.


    Someone else has also tested the oGCDs (Fleche, Contre, Corps, Displacement) and it seems that they're considered Melee Piercing. So it will be affected by Disembowel. I assume the regular melee combo is also considered melee piercing.
    Was damage increased when another RDM used Embolden on you or does it just not get affected at all?

  10. #10
    Smells like Onions
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyttyn View Post
    since red mage's auto attacks scale with STR it's an extremely petite damage gain.
    I've only really done PotD so far but when I was hitting for 2k on spells I was hitting for 50 per auto attack. I personally won't be trying to take advantage of autos.

    Note that I didn't really test this, I more just saw the damage and stopped bothering. I could be wrong.

  11. #11
    Old Odin
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    I mean, SMN still liked book autos despite being in the same boat. I don't think we're that much different. It's a very minor dps boost but those with a SMN background are probably already used to it.

  12. #12
    Hyperion Cross
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    If we can reignite RDM Meleeing in 2017 I'm all for doing it hahahaha

    I want that to replace healer DPSing arguments. Then we've come full circle!

  13. #13
    Atheist Douchebag.
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    The real question is:

    Should I sub /WAR to add more UMPH to my en- spell damage or sub /DRG for Jump damage?

  14. #14
    Black Guy from Predator.
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    Our autoattack means pretty much nothing; the only time I find it beneficial to personally be in melee is to jump in, hit embolden for everyone else, do my big three, and get the fuck out of dodge.

    As far as burst goes, I find myself starting off with (assuming 80+ of both)

    Corps
    Embolden
    Fleche
    Contre
    Riposte
    Zwerchhau
    Redoublement gum
    Displacement
    Swift/Accel
    (thunder/aero, whichever is lower)

    While running the first dungeon, I find this combo easily ripping off 2/5-1/2 of a mob's hp, crits allowing. RDM hits hard, yall.

  15. #15
    Relic Horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    I mean, SMN still liked book autos despite being in the same boat. I don't think we're that much different. It's a very minor dps boost but those with a SMN background are probably already used to it.
    pretty sure this hasn't been a thing on SMN for 2 years now. STR fell incredibly behind due to stat bloat and fewer reasons to R2

    EDIT: top Creator kills with SMN present have their AAs contributing between 0.05% and 0.4% of their total dmg, it's at the point where I wouldn't even call it "a very minor boost" and it's going to be even lower at 70

  16. #16
    Old Odin
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    I see. My views are like 2 years outdated so that's my bad.

  17. #17
    Salvage Bans
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    Can't tell if the class will be any good DPS wise, but it can be handy in some off shoot situations. Did that story primal and immediately lost two healers to some mechanic. I was able to raise them both, shoot some mana over to the whm and cure the tank while they recover. Then you can just pop Lucid and get back into it. That plus apoc and embolden is pretty nifty, though at the end of the day it feels like their deeps might be kind of wack.

  18. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetanio View Post
    The real question is:

    Should I sub /WAR to add more UMPH to my en- spell damage or sub /DRG for Jump damage?
    /DRG for the accuracy bonus trait. Berserk isn't going to be helping your en-spell

  19. #19
    Atheist Douchebag.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinktheDeme View Post
    /DRG for the accuracy bonus trait. Berserk isn't going to be helping your en-spell
    Good point. Maybe just /SAM instead.

  20. #20
    New Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetanio View Post
    Good point. Maybe just /SAM instead.
    Uh, dude, everyone knows /DRG is best for the Haste.

    http://www.ffxiah.com/item/14737/wyvern-earring

    How quickly we have forgotten..

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