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  1. #21
    D. Ring
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    I see you listed blowing up your turret immediately after Wildfire, and that made me think of two questions.

    1) Shouldn't you keep your turret up until it's done its full 20s of Hypercharge?
    2) Does blowing up your turret count as damage from you, or from it? I assume from it, but I was mainly wondering if it's damage can go toward Wildfire, or if doing it while overheated would bump the damage.

  2. #22
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    I see you listed blowing up your turret immediately after Wildfire, and that made me think of two questions.

    1) Shouldn't you keep your turret up until it's done its full 20s of Hypercharge?
    2) Does blowing up your turret count as damage from you, or from it? I assume from it, but I was mainly wondering if it's damage can go toward Wildfire, or if doing it while overheated would bump the damage.
    Good questions!

    1) Right after wildfire pops seems to be about the 20s mark for me and SD's openers, so that gets the last shot of hypercharge off but also lets the turret blow up while the mob is still affected by vulnerability.
    2) I can confirm that turret damage doesn't count towards Wildfire (easy test on a target dummy if you want to check for sure), but I don't know if overheating conveys the extra damage bump to your turret.

  3. #23
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaera View Post
    That's interesting, using flamethrower to get a Coolown in during WF. I feel like that last Heated Slug won't land before WF pops though, since I haven't been able to get 6 shots into a WF window yet.
    You might be right on that.

    Cooldown and Slug both have the same potency with ammo (edit: couldn't read earlier). Plus it means you gotta use flamethrower for a few seconds. What do you think Spider-Dan?
    I had mixed results between this and the previous (non-flame) rotation, but this one hit the highest high (both in total DPS and WF damage). Maybe that was just lucky direct/crit procs?

  4. #24
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    I had mixed results between this and the previous (non-flame) rotation, but this one hit the highest high (both in total DPS and WF damage). Maybe that was just lucky direct/crit procs?
    Could be! You'd need a large sample size to know for sure with all of the different random things that could come up in a 15-20 second opener, but at least based on our analysis the flamethrower rotation will at worst be a wash, and at best maybe an improvement if it flows better etc. The only drawback I really see is having to do 3 ticks of Flamethrower, which could be another global with a different opener. I think that 3 ticks of flamethrower is 180 potency, and even a base heated split shot is like 190 or 200.

  5. #25
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    So after doing some number crunching, flame doesn't seem like it's worth it. I think this is my "final" rotation for now:

    (Infusion of Dexterity, 30s)
    Hot Shot
    Quick Reload, Barrel Stabilizer
    Heated Split
    Gauss Round, Hypercharge
    Heated Slug
    Heated Split
    Wildfire, Ricochet
    Heated Clean
    Reload, Rapid Fire
    Heated Slug
    Heated Split
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean
    Quick Reload
    Heated Slug
    Gauss Round
    (wildfire proc)

    Separately, here is a MCH/BRD FAQ with some useful tips.

  6. #26
    Ho Mamthra
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    The FAQ you linked is a good read and I think it covers a lot of stuff! They bring up the question of stat priorities at the end--I don't think that anyone's done the work and posted any kind of numbers/weights yet. I've just been doing my own thing, prioritizing Crit and Direct Hit over the others when possible and melding materia accordingly. I have enjoyed the results with DH, it ramps up very quickly compared to other stats, and a DH+Crit Rook Overdrive is a beautiful thing.

    What have you been aiming for so far?

  7. #27
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    TBH I really don't even care about secondaries in this game anymore. For materia, I would probably go crit or DH unless they were vastly more expensive than DET.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Separately, here is a MCH/BRD FAQ with some useful tips.
    This is quite the interesting read, thanks. I wanted to pull this nugget out, since it hadn't even occurred to me.

    If doing overheated AOEs:
    spread shot into overheat, then more spread shots. at 1s left on overheat, flamethrower for 10s to snapshot the overheat buff on flamethrower
    I had only ever thought to use flamethrower to get myself overheated, and didn't even consider that it could keep the overheat buff if used right before overheat wore off. As a filthy casual that so far has only dabbled in dungeons with MCH, this will be very useful when I run my daily expert.

  9. #29
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    Here's another interesting part:

    Net expected potency on 123 series (no ammo, no Gauss, no heat) is 155.55.
    Single-target potency of overheated Flamethrower is 768 (it's actually 11 ticks in 10 seconds).
    You need at least five 123s in 10 seconds to beat that, which isn't happening (?).

    So if everything is on cooldown and you have 10+ seconds remaining on Hot Shot, you should use Flamethrower right before Overheat ends, even on single-target. That would consume your entire lockout phase, and you'd go straight into Gauss/Barrel Stabilizer after.

    edit: oops, forgot that Flame turns AA off. What's the formula for calculating AA, again?

  10. #30
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    I'm ashamed to admit that I don't know the formula for calculating AA damage. I like the flamethrower idea though. I'd like to try that out in practice and try to find a way to quantify it.

    One thing that I'm noticing, for any new MCH who might be browsing this thread, is that intermediate-level MCH skill seems to be having an awareness of your cooldowns (specifically ammo) and using all your other abilities to maximize them. My favorite thing now is getting a proc on a non-ammo split shot, and letting enhanced slug shot sit there while I hot shot (if it's about to drop off), cooldown (if I'm at 75+ heat), anything to burn off some time before one of the reloads come up. There is no danger to this as long as you don't lose the enhanced proc, and you should definitely do it if you have the opportunity to ensure that slug goes off with ammo.

    Another observation from last night's raid: Rook Overdrive is so incredibly strong! I'm sure they'll nerf it at some point, but right now I am seriously enjoying the occasional 25k-30k (!!!) hit.

    Finally, I managed to get 6 shots into a WF last night during O2S. The only buff I had at the time was the arrow, but I think latency was favorable and I delayed WF long enough to get my last clean shot off. I plan on experimenting to see if I can recreate it once I can find a bored AST to throw Arrows at me.

  11. #31
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    Well, time to finally train myself to overheat for wildfires...

    Damage increase when overheated changed from 10% to 20%.
    :/

    Edit: I'm getting the feeling that my opener will remain the same, but that I'll OH every WF after that. I'm not seeing a way to OH on the opener without completely blowing any kind of staging we had previously. For instance a new opener might be:

    Hot Shot
    Gauss Round
    Flamethrower to 85 heat
    Random shot (90)
    Hypercharge + pot?
    Random shot (95)
    Wildfire
    Random Shot (Overheated)
    Rapid Fire + Reload
    *Split Shot
    Ricochet
    *Slug Shot
    *Split Shot
    Reassemble
    *Clean Shot
    Gauss Round, Quick Reload, WF Pop
    *Slug Shot
    10 seconds of filler garbage for GB to come back
    Barrel Stabilizer

    * this is assuming the worst but completely possible situation where you don't get procs leading up to WF, but it would all be very random.

    Worst case scenario, our WF will now have 3x Split shots, a Slug and a Clean. It'll improve depending on your proc luck, but we had previously been getting 2x Clean, 2x Slug and 1x Split. So the new rotation incl OGCD skills is 1570 potency + 20% OH (not quite, but we'll say 20% for ease of math) worst case, and the old one was 1690 + no bonus for OH but no shot downtime afterwards (+120 potency and 5% GB damage)

    So 1884 potency opener w/ OH and the resulting downtime vs >1810 potency opener w/o OH and no downtime. Tough call but I'm probably wrong--randomthrower opener is probably stronger with even a single proc.

  12. #32
    Ho Mamthra
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    My previous post was shortsighted--it's clearly too early for theorycrafting! On second thought, I have come up with this:

    Start with 3 ammo and <10s on Reload CD
    Hypercharge
    Hot Shot
    Quick Reload, Gauss Round
    Heated Split
    Heated Slug
    Optional: potion
    Heated Split
    Rapid Fire (use before FT), Flamethrower to OH Wildfire
    Heated Clean
    Reload
    Heated Slug
    Ricochet
    Heated Split
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean
    Quick Reload
    Heated Slug
    Gauss Round
    (wildfire proc)
    Heated Clean
    Rook Overdrive

    The only change now is there's a 5 second pause to Flamethrower, but you use WF to cancel FT and get right into your rotation. I was afraid this would burn off too much OH time before you got to the first shot, but it's only like .5 seconds in practice.

    I feel much better about this. I like predictable.

    I think it would be a good time to revisit whether or not the damage boost from OH affects Overdrive. Will test this when I get home from work this evening.

  13. #33
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    So this is what I had settled on in 4.05 (WF proc was right after second Gauss Round). With the Overheat changes, you basically have to use Flamethrower in your opener, and I had the same idea as you: just add FT and use WF to cancel it when you Overheat.

    So I think max DPS should be very close to this:

    3 ammo start
    Hot Shot
    Quick Reload, Barrel Stabilizer
    Heated Split
    Gauss Round, Hypercharge
    Heated Slug
    (potion)
    Heated Split
    Rapid Fire
    Flamethrower to Overheat (3 ticks)
    Wildfire
    Heated Clean
    Reload
    Heated Slug
    Ricochet
    Heated Split
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean (with 1 ammo)
    Quick Reload
    Heated Slug
    Gauss Round
    (wildfire proc)
    Heated Split
    (last application of Hypercharge debuff)
    Rook Overdrive

    I feel pretty solid about this rotation. There is some question about potion at start (max ammo) vs. potion where I have it, but I believe getting more potion time during Hypercharge defense down is the better solution.

  14. #34
    D. Ring
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    Wouldn't swapping your last two Split/Cleans under Wildfire out for Cooldowns give you slightly higher potency (40)? You wouldn't have a Clean Shot proc waiting for you at the end, but I'm not sure if that makes up for the slightly lower damage during Wildfire. If you're not going to make it all the way to Clean Shot on the last bit of Overheat, Cooldown should do more damage since it's higher damage than using Split. Unless I'm missing something...?

    Using cooldown should get you a difference of 40 extra potency, the +20% makes it effectively 48 potency, and the 50% bonus from wildfire puts it at 72 potency. Losing the Clean Shot proc loses you 80 potency, so ... no nevermind, your rotation is better once I bother to do the math. Dang. I do really like to just spam Cooldown when overheated. It's so much less hectic.

    I'm also confused why you have a Heated Split after your wildfire, since overheat should be gone after wildfire goes off, and with it, your Gauss Barrel. Also, I think you should have a Clean Shot proc waiting (using your posted rotation) if I'm looking at this correctly. You may as well use that, since your Gauss isn't coming back up before the combo falls off.

  15. #35
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Quick Reload, Barrel Stabilizer
    The only question I have for you S-D is with using Barrel Stabilizer in your opener here. You might have to start with 0 heat and FT for longer, so that you have BS up once you finish the coolown period and can put GB back on. I'm not sure how you'll get back up to 50 heat otherwise. Thoughts?

    I'm with Raldo on irrational love of Cooldown, I enjoyed using that shot for some reason lol

  16. #36
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    You're both right, I didn't account for the fact that Stabilizer will be down. It's probably better to lose potency on the first section of the opener so you can restabilize coming out of Overheat, which is also good because your Wildfire and Stabilizer timers will stay synced. I do need to confirm whether Overheat affects Rook Overdrive potency, though I'm relatively certain it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Also, I think you should have a Clean Shot proc waiting (using your posted rotation) if I'm looking at this correctly. You may as well use that, since your Gauss isn't coming back up before the combo falls off.
    Yeah, my mistake. Heated Clean (more likely just Clean) was in the rotation script that I linked, but I forgot to transcribe it.

    So then:

    3 ammo start
    Hot Shot
    Quick Reload, Barrel Stabilizer
    Heated Split
    Gauss Round, Hypercharge
    Heated Slug
    (potion)
    Heated Split
    Rapid Fire
    Flamethrower to Overheat (3 5 ticks)
    Wildfire
    Heated Clean
    Reload
    Heated Slug
    Ricochet
    Heated Split
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean (with 1 ammo)
    Quick Reload
    Heated Slug
    Gauss Round
    (wildfire proc)
    (Heated?) Clean
    Split
    (last application of Hypercharge debuff)
    Rook Overdrive

    Gauss Round or Hypercharge could potentially be moved up before Split, but if you move up Hypercharge then you also need to move up Overdrive.

    tbh I am getting tired of relearning my rotations after every micro-patch

  17. #37
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    tbh I am getting tired of relearning my rotations after every micro-patch
    Seconded! I wanted to just say "fuck this!" when I saw the patch notes and realized I was going to have to retrain myself again.

  18. #38
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    Well, if it's any consolation, you could replace all of the split/slug/cleans (Clean, Slug, Split, Clean, Slug) in that opener with nothing but cooldown and you'd only lose about a Split Shot (not even a Heated Split!) worth of damage. Not gonna lie, there's no way in hell I'll bother going through the effort for that, since I'm not doing savage.

    Edit: Was going to edit in a new rotation, but it took me too long so I just posted below.

  19. #39
    D. Ring
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    Now that the opener has been revised to starting with 3 unheated shots, I think you might be better off trimming down the unheated stuff. I would propose the following:

    3 ammo start
    Hot Shot
    Quick Reload, Hypercharge
    Split (unheated!)
    Rapid Fire
    Flamethrower to Overheat (5 ticks)
    Wildfire
    Heated Slug
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean
    Gauss Round
    Heated Split
    Reload
    Heated Slug
    Ricochet
    Heated Clean
    (Wildfire proc)

    Unless I'm mistaken, this should keep the damage during Wildfire exactly the same, while trimming out two of the unheated shots at the beginning. This allows you to get back to your heated shots 2 GCDs faster, which should hopefully make up for the loss of that (unheated!) Clean Shot proc that you miss out on by doing it this way.

  20. #40
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    121321 is just about the easiest part of the rotation, since that is read-and-react. It's unlearning the muscle memory of OGCD rotations that's the real problem.

    There has to be something between Hot Shot and Rapid-FT-WF because you need time to get Hypercharge and potion out. But supposing you use those before you engage (and excluding common factors), if you compare the most recent rotation I listed to a FT->Cooldown opener:

    Rotation 1: Heated Clean (270pot) x1, Heated Slug+ammo (255) x2, Heated Split+ammo (215) x1, Heated Clean+ammo+Reassemble (~443) x1 for ~1437pot. WF increase of ~359 for a total of ~1797pot.
    Rotation 2: Cooldown+ammo (255) x4, Cooldown+ammo+Reassemble x1 (~383) for ~1403pot. WF increase of ~351 for a total of ~1753pot.

    That's a 2.5% increase - almost exactly the same as the increase from coordinating Overheats with WF. So if you don't care about that, you really shouldn't even bother with timed overheats in the first place. Just stop using Cooldown if Stabilizer is up and let the rest solve itself.

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