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  1. #41
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Now that the opener has been revised to starting with 3 unheated shots, I think you might be better off trimming down the unheated stuff. I would propose the following:

    3 ammo start (3)
    Hot Shot (2)
    Quick Reload, Hypercharge (3)
    Split (unheated!) (2)
    Rapid Fire
    Flamethrower to Overheat (5 ticks)
    Wildfire
    Heated Slug (1)
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean (0)
    Gauss Round
    Heated Split (no ammo )
    Reload (3)
    Heated Slug (2)
    Ricochet
    Heated Clean (1)
    (Wildfire proc)
    Spider-Dan is right that this might be hard to execute in practice if you're mixing in pots, but I like what you're thinking. One issue is ammo (I added ammo counts in bold above) but you could resolve that by swapping Gauss Round and Reload. I'll mess around with this on a dummy for a little while once I'm done with this overheat overload stuff.

  2. #42
    Ho Mamthra
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    So I spent a couple hours doing Rook Overload on a target dummy and got some data. The dummy was a level 60 one, I wore no gear except my gun (to try and keep crit/dh down), and the only buff I had was gauss barrel.

    I did 20 overloads with just gauss barrel, no heat, nothing. Of those 20 shots, only 1 crit and none had DH. The average of all of the non-crits was 2,598 damage.

    I did 21 overloads with gauss barrel, but I used Flamethrower to OH before I used overload. Of the 21 shots, only 1 crit here as well and I had no DH procs. The average of all of the non-crits was 2,635.

    The difference between the two is about 1.4%, so even with this small sample size I'd say for sure that at this point in time, OH does not affect Rook Overload.

  3. #43
    Ho Mamthra
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    So I took Raldo's idea of shortening the opening sequence (since mine did have some dead space anyways), and Spider-Dan's comments about not cramming too much stuff in between skills, and added a dash of my 3.0 rotation for this:

    Start with 3 ammo and <10s on Reload CD
    Hypercharge
    Hot Shot (2)
    Quick Reload, Gauss Round (3)
    Slug Shot (yes slug) (2)
    Potion
    Split Shot (1)
    Rapid Fire (use before FT), Flamethrower to OH Wildfire
    Heated Clean (0)
    Reload (3)
    Heated Slug (2)
    Ricochet
    Heated Split (1)
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean (0)
    Quick Reload (1)
    Heated Slug (0)
    Gauss Round
    (wildfire proc, overheat off)
    Clean Shot (0)
    Rook Overdrive

    This gets you into heat faster, spaces out your stuff better, and both of your Clean Shots under WF get ammo too. I don't worry too much about using an unbuffed Slug to open with, and the opener flows really well.

    What do you guys think? Best of all currently available worlds for now?

    Edit: Practicing in Omega normal. Overheating for WF ruins all of my rhythm and is absolutely frustrating. Ugh.

    Edit 2: Absolutely frustrating was an understatement, this is awful. Overheating requires you to almost never use Cooldown, and Cooldown was my filler to hold shots for ammo, so I now end up wasting procs on shots without ammo and it's always right before WF comes back up and I OH. Jesus.

  4. #44
    D. Ring
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    Whoops, I guess I miscounted the ammo when I posted that rotation. I do like your idea in theory, it does give you time for the potion and gets your Gauss Round rolling sooner (both of which I couldn't think of a way to reconcile when I suggested my change), but I am concerned that doing a non-combo slug loses you 100 potency. I'm starting to lean back toward SD's 3-unheated opener.

  5. #45
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Whoops, I guess I miscounted the ammo when I posted that rotation. I do like your idea in theory, it does give you time for the potion and gets your Gauss Round rolling sooner (both of which I couldn't think of a way to reconcile when I suggested my change), but I am concerned that doing a non-combo slug loses you 100 potency. I'm starting to lean back toward SD's 3-unheated opener.
    I agree with your concern 100%. I don't know how to quantify the value of that unbuffed Slug, or how much (if anything) you gain from it. I also think I'll settle on a number of unheated shots in the opener.

    Another thought for the opener, based on a video I watched earlier, is that while we're under the effect of OH we can use Cooldown at "no cost" since it won't reduce our heat. If I remember right, Cooldown is right between buffed Slug and Clean damage, so it may be of value to position yourself for two Cleans during OH, then Cooldown the rest.

    So maybe go into OH with Clean and Slug buffed
    Clean > Slug > Clean > CD > CD (pop) > CD (OH off)

    I plan on investigating this when I get home tonight and will report back some findings.

  6. #46
    D. Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaera View Post
    Another thought for the opener, based on a video I watched earlier, is that while we're under the effect of OH we can use Cooldown at "no cost" since it won't reduce our heat. If I remember right, Cooldown is right between buffed Slug and Clean damage, so it may be of value to position yourself for two Cleans during OH, then Cooldown the rest.

    So maybe go into OH with Clean and Slug buffed
    Clean > Slug > Clean > CD > CD (pop) > CD (OH off)
    Cooldown is equivalent in damage to Heated Slug (230 +25 w/ ammo), and three of them is equivalent to a full Heated combo (190+230+270 = 230+230+230; +25 per ammo). I brought up this idea several posts ago, but then I ran a strikethrough all of it, since I did the math and it turns out to be ever-so-slightly less DPS (by like 8 potency) due to a lost Clean Shot proc. The math shows that the only time Cooldown should be used during Overheat is if you've screwed up and run out of ammo to ensure combos, and a Clean Shot proc isn't up.

    Also, you have listed 6 GCD shots while overheated, and I thought we could only fit 5? I'm not sure what your (pop) is indicating.

    Here's what I wrote earlier, if you're curious. It was an edit to the post, so you may have missed it if you checked as soon as I posted (I have a bad habit of doing that).
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    Wouldn't swapping your last two Split/Cleans under Wildfire out for Cooldowns give you slightly higher potency (40)? You wouldn't have a Clean Shot proc waiting for you at the end, but I'm not sure if that makes up for the slightly lower damage during Wildfire. If you're not going to make it all the way to Clean Shot on the last bit of Overheat, Cooldown should do more damage since it's higher damage than using Split. Unless I'm missing something...?

    Using cooldown should get you a difference of 40 extra potency, the +20% (Overheat) makes it effectively 48 potency, and the 50% bonus from wildfire puts it at 72 potency. Losing the Clean Shot proc loses you 80 potency, so ... no nevermind, your rotation is better once I bother to do the math. Dang. I do really like to just spam Cooldown when overheated. It's so much less hectic.

  7. #47
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    I brought up this idea several posts ago
    I'm sorry man, I didn't realize--I must have skipped right over the strikethrough.

    If I understand correctly, when you did that analysis it was based on S-D's rotation of Overheat & wildfire > clean > split > slug > clean > slug, so if you did two WF on the end it would be swapping out the clean and ammo slug that would give you the next slug. I agree with your analysis in this case.

    However based on stuff I was reading while I was supposed to be working today, there are two things we should consider:

    1) It doesn't seem possible to get 6 shots in on WF, but people are reporting that they CAN get 6 shots in on OH. I tried it on a dummy and just barely got the 6th shot in, and I think it is due to the way you engage after each skill.

    For instance, with Wildfire you can hit your WF button, but no matter how quickly you mash your next shot you always have that ~.25 second delay before it'll activate. Overheating seems to work differently, since you can activate your next shot the very instant that you hit 100+ heat and OH is triggered. This gives you the full 10 seconds, unlike with Wildfire where it's maybe like 9.5-9.75. Have you noticed this in your own experiments?

    2) Since we can in theory get 5 shots in WF and 6 shots in OH, we can prep to optimize both windows. I can't claim credit for this (I got it from a youtube video that had some success with it), but the rotation could be:

    Start with 2 or 3 ammo, no heat, GB on
    Infusion & Hypercharge
    Hot Shot (1)
    Gauss Round
    Split Shot (0)
    Reload (3)
    Slug Shot (2)
    Flamethrower 5 tick + Overheat
    Heated Split (1)
    Rapid Fire & Wildfire
    Heated Clean (0)
    Quick Reload (1)
    Heated Slug (0)
    Reassemble
    Heated Clean
    Gauss Round
    Cooldown
    Ricochet
    Cooldown (WF pop, OH ends)
    Rook Overload
    Split Shot

    If this works, it gets you a split, 2 cleans, a slug and 2 cooldowns during OH. And all that minus the split during WF, which is pretty solid. To top it off, the author claims that using reload early in this rotation makes timings line up much better later so it flows well. This was the #1 most frustrating thing while I was raiding last night. I'm going to shoot a target dummy for a little while to see how it goes.

    What do you guys think?

  8. #48
    D. Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michaera View Post
    Since we can in theory get 5 shots in WF and 6 shots in OH
    Aren't WF and OH both 10 seconds? If you use WF immediately after you enter OH, how can you get 5 shots in WF, but 6 in OH? Not saying that you can't do 6, but if you can do 6 in OH, you should be able to do 6 in WF too. I'll admit, I've approached this all as theory and haven't actually manually run anything in game yet.

    Edit: Oh, I see you've modified the rotation to do a GCD between Overheat and Wildfire, hmmmm... That's what I get for posting before reading the whole thing.

    Yeah, at a glance that looks like it could be more powerful, though I'll admit I didn't do any math yet. The problem I have with it, is that if you're going to bother with a potion, I think it's safe to assume a 3-ammo opener, which means you're wasting an ammo as your currently have it. If you move your reload, you could also move your potion to get more bang for your buck out of it (popping it before you fire anything means it'll probably wear off right before your overheat is done). I think a fraction of a second delay on overheat might be worth keeping that extra ammo (25 potency, potential combo). I would rearrange your beginning bit to look like this:
    Hypercharge
    Hot Shot (2)
    Gauss Round
    Split Shot (1)
    Potion
    Slug Shot (0)
    Reload
    Flamethrower to overheat
    [...]


    If you don't like that, you could alternatively do this:
    Hypercharge
    Hot Shot (2)
    Gauss Round, Quick Reload (3)
    Split Shot (2)
    Potion
    Slug Shot (1)
    Flamethrower to overheat
    Heated Split (0)
    Reload
    [...]

    This one might even allow you to jam another Quick Reload in during Overheat, depending on how the timing lines up, but it does slow down getting your Reload on cooldown, so it's really hard to math out what's better with all these nuances.

    Shoot, I overanalyzed the beginning of the rotation so much I didn't even look into Cooldown.

  9. #49
    Ho Mamthra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raldo View Post
    This one might even allow you to jam another Quick Reload in during Overheat, depending on how the timing lines up.
    I think the second one you posted is very similar to another opener that the author of this one posted, in which they start with 3 ammo and use reload after you OH. It looks like this:

    Spoiler: show
    3 ammo loaded, GB on
    (Infusion) (Hypercharge) → Hot Shot (QR + GR) → Split Shot → Slug Shot (Flamethrower 5 tick + Overheat) → Split Shot (Reload + Wildfire) → Cooldown (Rapid Fire + Reassemble) → Clean Shot (QR) → Slug Shot (GR) → Clean Shot (Ricochet) → Cooldown → (Rook Overload) → Split Shot


    But they go on to say that using reload this late makes it difficult to set up for the next OH/WF 60 seconds later, since it won't come up again until you're already in OH again. I haven't tried this yet though to verify, but I think that without that reload, my second WF would be setup super sloppy.

    So far it all seems to fall apart after the 4th or 5th WF though either way.

  10. #50
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    I guess one of my earlier posts was eaten. I was going to say that I really disagree with opening with Slug because the 60 potency you throw away there basically nullifies whatever gain you are getting on the back end in WF.

  11. #51
    Ho Mamthra
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    Yeah let's go ahead and scrap the unbuffed Slug option. It worked well for me in 3.x, but you guys are right.

    The 2-3 ammo rotation I posted above seems to be all right, but after running some pug raids it still gets clunky for me after a few OHs. Have you guys tried the new mechanics in a longer term fight yet?

  12. #52
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    With the way MCH timers are set up, if you are not using abilities literally the second they pop, you're going to fall out of sync... and it's impossible to use everything that quickly in fights that have boss jumps, gaze attacks, Churning-style attacks, etc. So I've basically just been trying to get my opener out and then Overheat by ear after that.

    I really think I'm just going to stick with this. I feel like it does a better job of optimizing my timers - I'm not just sitting on QR or GR - and I'm not wasting any Hypercharge or potion time in pre-engage. I'm certainly open to a rotation with a big gain, but that's still a solid WF, and I think it's worth getting back into heat 2 GCDs later for the improved timer and buff optimization on the front end.

    BTW, does anyone know offhand if DEX potion affects Overdrive?

  13. #53
    Ho Mamthra
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    Cool--let us know if you're satisfied with that rotation over the next couple weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    BTW, does anyone know offhand if DEX potion affects Overdrive?
    I am strongly assuming that it does, since I believe the medicated effect is actually applied to your turret on its buff bar. Have not done any extensive testing to confirm though.

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