Game of Thrones (TV talk) (CLEARLY MARK AND TAG BOOK SPOILERS IF YOU POST THEM) SEASON 7

[Tyrath]

where did i say she was a political genius

It's my point that she's bad at politics and that she shouldn't have burned the Tarlys because she needs allies. If you're gonna make a "oh look she has made allies" comment you're either trying to put forth a counter argument to that point or you're making useless post.

and the ones that are gone are so because of Tyrion's failed military strategy

Yep. But she still needs more and burning lords of noble houses isn't gonna do it. Tyrion was outplayed by Jaime. That doesn't make all future advice by him bad.

[Andalusian girls]

no, she doesn't. regardless of her having by far the most powerful military she has 4.5 of the kingdoms in Westeros either pledged to her or at least in loose cooperation and intractably opposed to the Lannisters. and how loyal do you think, say, the Riverlands are going to be to the good Queen Cersei? team Lannister basically consists of the Westerlands and House Tarly and Euron. if Dany ignored the Night King the war would be over in a fortnight.

and this may be difficult to comprehend but there are shades between 'shit-tier' and 'genius'. she, with Varys's help of course, did a fine job courting every disaffected house in Westeros, who were so primarily because of how terrible at politics Cersei is (though she is real good at killing people). Dany then destroyed the second strongest house allied with the Lannisters after giving them an option to submit.

[Zetanio]

her support basically consists of the Westerlands and House Pile of Ashes.

FTFY FAM

[Rhyis.]

When your two smartest advisors think what you did was a mistake, chances are you fucked up and there's gonna be consequences for that fuck up.

[Tyrath]

no, she doesn't. regardless of her having by far the most powerful military she has 4.5 of the kingdoms in Westeros either pledged to her or at least in loose cooperation .

Wrong. She's lost Dorne entirely. Tyrell's bannermen were fighting with Lannisters. None of the Ironborn supporting her are left.

All she has is loose cooperation with the Starks and they don't want to be involved in fighting Lannisters until White Walkers are done.

She hasn't done shit to cultivate relationships with anyone (besides eyeing Jon's dick). It was her advisors and my whole point is that she needs to go back to listening to her advisors because her "kneel or burn" approach is bad.

[Moss]

This is how conquest works. The families on the losing side may cease to exist. Then you raise up a new house in their place, loyal to you.

[Moss]

I don't think it matters if families join her side initially out of fear. If she proves a fair ruler and they prosper, they will be loyal.

[Tyrath]

This is how conquest works. The families on the losing side may cease to exist. Then you raise up a new house in their place, loyal to you.

She wants to be different kind of ruler. She can't fall back on the same old conqueror BS. The whole reason some of the people support her is because she won't be more of the same.

She can't break the wheel by becoming a spoke on the wheel.

[Andalusian girls]

Wrong. She's lost Dorne entirely. Tyrell's bannermen were fighting with Lannisters. None of the Ironborn supporting her are left.

All she has is loose cooperation with the Starks and they don't want to be involved in fighting Lannisters until White Walkers are done.

She hasn't done shit to cultivate relationships with anyone (besides eyeing Jon's dick). It was her advisors and my whole point is that she needs to go back to listening to her advisors because her "kneel or burn" approach is bad.

to repeat, she did not lose any allies because of her being "shit-tier at politics" she lost them because of Tyrion, who no one seems to be calling shit-tier at anything.

and with the Starks come the Vale. and though the Dornish leadership is dead they don't exactly seem likely to forgive the Lannister family that mudered, like, all of them. you're correct that the Reach is split but with both her greatest allied house and the greatest enemy house gone and their armies destroyed it seems something of a spent force likely to acquiesce to whoever wins. all that to say she has most of the strength left in Westeros either with her or against the Lannisters. more allies never hurt but she doesn't need them to win the war.

and i would reiterate it's p rich the standard Dany is being held to after years of 'Stannis the Mannis' acting with far less concern for human life than she ever has.

[Tyrath]

to repeat, she did not lose any allies because of her being "shit-tier at politics" she lost them because of Tyrion, who no one seems to be calling shit-tier at anything.

I never said she did. I said she's shit tier because after losing them she's going in a direction that won't gain her anymore.

and with the Starks come the Vale. and though the Dornish leadership is dead they don't exactly seem likely to forgive the Lannister family that mudered, like, all of them. you're correct that the Reach is split but with both her greatest allied house and the greatest enemy house gone and their armies destroyed it seems something of a spent force likely to acquiesce to whoever wins.

The Starks aren't going to join her in battle against Cersei until WW are dealt with. Moot point.

and i would reiterate it's p rich the standard Dany is being held to after years of 'Stannis the Mannis' acting with far less concern for human life than she ever has.

It's not. Because like I posted above, Dany herself keeps setting up higher standards for herself. She claims to be different. "Bend the knee or burn" is more of the same. She can be a savior or she can be a conqueror. It's fine if she's the latter. But she can't have it both ways.

[Rhyis.]

Stannis the Mannis was crazy. He burnt his daughter alive to gain power ups.

[Zetanio]

Stannis the Mannis was crazy. He burnt his daughter alive to gain power ups.

wasn't with dargons though. totes different.

[Moss]

I never said she did. I said she's shit tier because after losing them she's going in a direction that won't gain her anymore.

So is the idea that Tarly will eventually join after being held as prisoner?

If other houses see her as too merciful, what's the penalty of rising up against her? If you lose, meh, just join up.

You keep going to the "spokes on a wheel" speech. That is definitely relevant here, but I think her early losses this season point to the difficulty in fighting a war with an arm tied behind your back. The more ruthless side has a distinct advantage. Dany and co. are realizing this.

[Tyrath]

I'm pretty sure Stannis lost most of his support for burning his daughter.

He also really only had support because he was the rightful heir to Robert. Nobody came in here claiming he was the second coming of jesus like some people do for Dany.

[Rhyis.]

wasn't with dargons though. totes different.

Got to screw a hot red-head so I actually understand it.

[Andalusian girls]

I never said she did. I said she's shit tier because after losing them she's going in a direction that won't gain her anymore.

The Starks aren't going to join her in battle against Cersei until WW are dealt with. Moot point.

It's not. Because like I posted above, Dany herself keeps setting up higher standards for herself. She claims to be different. "Bend the knee or burn" is more of the same. She can be a savior or she can be a conqueror. Can't have it both ways.

uh fam since asking Cersei nicely to step down probably isn't going to work she's gonna need to conquer to save anything. is there moral ambiguity in that conquest? of course, said that pages ago.

and lawlz @ getting two of the major kingdoms on her side a moot point. no they won't help her win the war against Cersei immediately but she doesn't need their help to win against Cersei. did you not see her destroy the armies of Tarly and Lannister with a single dragon and the Dothraki, while the unsullied took Casterly Rock? she can win the war against the forces opposed to her as is, quite easily, without any other major allies. she's gone out of her way to do so with minimum bloodshed though.

[Tyrath]

You keep going to the "spokes on a wheel" speech. That is definitely relevant here, but I think her early losses this season point to the difficulty in fighting a war with an arm tied behind your back. The more ruthless side has a distinct advantage. Dany and co. are realizing this.

Well that's what happens if you want to be a different, better ruler. It's okay if she gives up on that and decides to just stomp/burn asses to the ground. But then you need to acknowledge that she's no different. That is the literal thing both Tyrion and Varys (and even Jon) are trying to get her to avoid. They support her because of the promise of her being a better ruler. This isn't the way to do that.

[Tyrath]

uh fam since asking Cersei nicely to step down probably isn't going to work she's gonna need to conquer to save anything.

and lawlz @ getting two of the major kingdoms on her side a moot point. no they won't help her win the war against Cersei immediately but she doesn't need their help to win against Cersei. did you not see her destroy the armies of Tarly and Lannister with a single dragon and the Dothraki, while the unsullied took Casterly Rock? she can win the war against the forces opposed to her as is, quite easily. she's gone out of her way to do so with minimum bloodshed though.

Can you follow from one post to the other? I didn't say she needs to ask Cersei to step down. I said she needs to work on building relationships with other lords in the realm so they are on her side rather than by default being on Cersei's.

She can win the war just fine. Uniting the realm is gonna take more than fire and blood. And bullshit she's gone out of her way to minimize bloodshed. She was doing that at Tyrion's behest and the whole fucking point is that she is starting to ignore them and I'm saying that's bad.

[Moss]

Well that's what happens if you want to be a different, better ruler. It's okay if she gives up on that and decides to just stomp/burn asses to the ground. But then you need to acknowledge that she's no different. That is the literal thing both Tyrion and Varys (and even Jon) are trying to get her to avoid. They support her because of the promise of her being a better ruler. This isn't the way to do that.

Soldiers will die regardless. If she's taking pains to minimize civilian deaths then she is different. She could easily burn KL with Cersei inside and win the kingdom in a day

[Tyrath]

Soldiers will die regardless. If she's taking pains to minimize civilian deaths then she is different. She could easily burn KL with Cersei inside and win the kingdom in a day

Agreed. She had to be held back from that and I'm glad she did.

But after she wins the war she needs to unite the kingdom. Burning the leaders of a major house is simply not the way to go about doing this no matter how easy it is for her to beat Cersei.