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  1. #41
    Ridill
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    Ah I see. I just meant it was a crappy example since it's the only one that talks about multiple elements changing and doesn't show it. Especially since everything else is about single element.

    Hehe well prepare to get mind blown. Elemental staffs and obis (well ok this is really day/weather) with right element do as well as Magic dmg stat (though really crappily)

    So some testing. Went to do some level 80 Heraldic imps on pld/sch (easy way vary my hit rate from what should be pretty low to capped without increasing dmg while also being highly survivable) and helixes all do the same dmg with the same stats unless resist/sdt and only element they have under 60% is dark at 30%.

    In the gear I was in all elements were dealing 42 for full dmg except dark which did 23 (it was dark day so that's why numbers are slightly higher). Take off my ilvl joy toy and resist rate goes thru the roof and got almost all resists at 5, 10, 21 for non dark so no 1/16. For nocto though did 2, 5, 11, 23. So clearly a 1/16

    Tried sleep. Actually got full 1 minute duration multiple times so.... yeah no resist or anything. Blind also lasted full 3 minutes when I did it as a sch.

    So went back and tried testing out the percentages. No mdmg or affinity or anything. Based on the chart lvl 1 fire should do 57.5% of closing skillchains dmg (115% light *.5). 540 fire led to 310 liquefaction. Yep perfect.

    lvl 1 dark should deal 15% of closing skillchains dmg (30%*.5) 16.5% if get day proc. 335 noctohelix gave 50 dmg compression. 15% golden.

    So the skillchain dmg thing lines up great but looks like they jumped the gun on the whole guaranteed resist thing though my assumption of sdt as we normally know it (since that is supposed to effect debuffs too. Though who knows maybe we've been wrong all along about that too and they just lined up coincidentally sometimes) was off too. Not large enough sample of mobs etc but -50% dmg to that element that isn't applied to the skillchain though not sure about specific -element dmgs applying I'd assume they would. About only thing I can think of that would defensively effect a nukes dmg but not skillchain would be MDB so maybe try some breaths next and maybe another mob

  2. #42
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    We are going to have to fix the wiki to accommodate this new information

  3. #43
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicyryan View Post
    We are going to have to fix the wiki to accommodate this new information
    Yeah now that we have 2 things we talking about with elements for mobs lol. Not sure how to handle that. Though I guess very few mobs have specific -element dmg outside of what's related to this whole under 60% thing so could just put this info in the already existing elemental boxes and regulate the others to notes?

    Of course skillchain page needs to get updated and probably a page for elemental resistance made

    All right onward to 103 Zoldeff pugils. Doing 45 dmg now in same gear... kind of funny how a 103 war mob apparently has less int than a 80 blm mob lol. Anyways 22 max dmg from hydro with full resist going down to 2 so 1/16 compared to other elements. And full 90 second poison duration.... random pugils and leeches in qufim that I tested a long time ago that definitely had 50% duration still got full. fml wtf have you done SE and when.

    Edit: Poison breath on random low level dudes in Qufim at full hp no gear changing 241. Pugils and leeches took 120... so definitely not some kind of mdb thing. Guess elemental dmg adjustments maybe don't effect skillchains but somehow affinity does lol? Probably gunna wait to find a good mob to test with that has a high resistance and an elemental reduction of the same element

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Yeah now that we have 2 things we talking about with elements for mobs lol. Not sure how to handle that. Though I guess very few mobs have specific -element dmg outside of what's related to this whole under 60% thing so could just put this info in the already existing elemental boxes and regulate the others to notes?

    Of course skillchain page needs to get updated and probably a page for elemental resistance made

    All right onward to 103 Zoldeff pugils. Doing 45 dmg now in same gear... kind of funny how a 103 war mob apparently has less int than a 80 blm mob lol. Anyways 22 max dmg from hydro with full resist going down to 2 so 1/16 compared to other elements. And full 90 second poison duration.... random pugils and leeches in qufim that I tested a long time ago that definitely had 50% duration still got full. fml wtf have you done SE and when.
    http://prntscr.com/gqkx8l

    It is a page that has supposed to have existed for years and still doesn't

    If someone just types it up then I can wikify it. As for the template adjustments for families and stuff, I put that in the BG discord to the other wiki "staff" so we can start addressing the idea

  5. #45
    Ridill
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    Ah ok. Well I started a bit of the mob info and think Nyarklo finished it so there's that and random sampling suggest the numbers are correct so far. The first page has a decent translation of the mechanic though a few points could use more verification but it seems more or less correct with some addendums but that's detail stuff that can get changed when it's figured out. I can fill out individual stuff when I got time at work too just no idea how to make the tables and new pages and shit lol

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Hehe well prepare to get mind blown. Elemental staffs and obis (well ok this is really day/weather) with right element do as well as Magic dmg stat (though really crappily)
    Kinda figured that if Pixie+1 works, then other elemental things like staves would too. Nice to have confirmation tho. ^^ Does this mean that if you are closing a sc, then the best belt option will be Hachirin-no-Obi, excluding "bad" days/weather? Incoming melees griping about not getting storms. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Ah ok. Well I started a bit of the mob info and think Nyarklo finished it so there's that and random sampling suggest the numbers are correct so far. The first page has a decent translation of the mechanic though a few points could use more verification but it seems more or less correct with some addendums but that's detail stuff that can get changed when it's figured out. I can fill out individual stuff when I got time at work too just no idea how to make the tables and new pages and shit lol
    The files I've posted contain the full listing as of yesterday. It's in AIUEO family order tho, and all mobs are named in katakana, so while it's not organized for easy access for English readers, everything is grouped up properly. The questionable/unclear stuff just needs a better translator than myself to go over it so that we can get all of the details.

    For the notes, how should I handle it? Should I clean up everything or trim out the non-gameplay affecting information like mob descriptions and "no changes from the main family's base stats"?

  7. #47
    Chram
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    Speaking of the Imp test, is it possible that Sleep actually has two resist states that correspond to the full duration? For example:

    No resist: 60s
    1/2 resist: 60s
    1/4 resist: 30s
    1/8 resist: Doesn't land.

    If so, then a forced 1/2 resist would still give you 60 seconds if you otherwise would have landed it fully.without the SDT.

    Did you get any full damage noctohelices at all, or any 15 second sleeps?


    Tomorrow, I'll see if I can replicate your full duration sleeps using absorbs.

  8. #48
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Kinda figured that if Pixie+1 works, then other elemental things like staves would too. Nice to have confirmation tho. ^^ Does this mean that if you are closing a sc, then the best belt option will be Hachirin-no-Obi, excluding "bad" days/weather? Incoming melees griping about not getting storms. lol



    The files I've posted contain the full listing as of yesterday. It's in AIUEO family order tho, and all mobs are named in katakana, so while it's not organized for easy access for English readers, everything is grouped up properly. The questionable/unclear stuff just needs a better translator than myself to go over it so that we can get all of the details.

    For the notes, how should I handle it? Should I clean up everything or trim out the non-gameplay affecting information like mob descriptions and "no changes from the main family's base stats"?
    Only if the closing skillchain's element matches the day and/or weather.

    I'll look thru it when I get a chance.

    I'd trim out the non game play stuff. It's mostly just fluff that could possible be put under monster descriptions or obvious conclusions based on numbers

  9. #49
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    The fluff would be stuff like:
    Ahriman (Scowlenkos, Uleguerand Range)
    A monster devil always floating with two wings. Skillfully manipulate human language and magic. Serving the king of the darkness, he lives mainly in the northern part of Quon Continent.
    Daemons tend to be strong in darkness and weak in light, the Ahriman tribe is typical.
    Or like:
    Vanguard Eye (Dynamis - Xarcabard)
    Subspecies added along with Dynamis implementation. The tendency of tolerance is the same as the original species, but the numbers are strengthened as individuals in Dynamis are all treated as NM.
    Things like when the mob was added can sometimes be useful to categorize them when it's a certain subspecies that has actual differences from base mobs, but family resist tendencies feel kind of redundant and lore-type descriptions feel somewhat unnecessary. Up to whoever is adding all of this to the wiki though. It will take me longer, but I don't mind sorting out as much as is wanted.

  10. #50
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    Speaking of the Imp test, is it possible that Sleep actually has two resist states that correspond to the full duration? For example:

    No resist: 60s
    1/2 resist: 60s
    1/4 resist: 30s
    1/8 resist: Doesn't land.

    If so, then a forced 1/2 resist would still give you 60 seconds if you otherwise would have landed it fully.without the SDT.

    Did you get any full damage noctohelices at all, or any 15 second sleeps?


    Tomorrow, I'll see if I can replicate your full duration sleeps using absorbs.
    Are you asking if you can get a resist and it not be any different than a non resist? Not really sure how you could call that a resist lol.

    I mean I guess the game could be coded any way you want but that totally flies in the face of all old debuff resist state testing and well just sounds crazy lol. Note also applied to blind AND poison on 2 different lower mobs.

    No full dmg noctos even with arts and ilvl weapon and no 15 second sleeps though wasn't really trying for low accuracy where I was just missing most of them. Should be noted doing a quick look thru the list I don't see any non nm that has a value under 30% except elements and umbrils for any element (though only like 1/4 the way thru it right now holy hell is the list long lol). Given the absolute resist of elementals went to try a lvl 100 umbril (Dark 10%). And yeah even with elemental seal on macc geared sch/blm couldn't land sleep or blind but was hitting immunobreaks like crazy... but once I got the immunbreaks which eventually allowed me to land a full duration sleep II.

    As far as absorbs that's kind of a different beast. Was getting only 1/4 and 1/2 durations on imps. Dark elementals were super weird where vast majority wouldn't land and the one that did was some super weird 15 sec

    Almost makes me think SDT is still on in general but they changed it works for the spells applicable with the immunobreak update and I guess also skillchains need not apply either. Given how far back it's been since I did debuff duration with SDT that sort of fits lol

  11. #51
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    The fluff would be stuff like:
    Things like when the mob was added can sometimes be useful to categorize them when it's a certain subspecies that has actual differences from base mobs, but family resist tendencies feel kind of redundant and lore-type descriptions feel somewhat unnecessary. Up to whoever is adding all of this to the wiki though. It will take me longer, but I don't mind sorting out as much as is wanted.
    First is super fluff lol.

    2nd sort of is too but more of the obvious. Also only done quick check so far but it looked to me that only true subspecies they had that had different values were things that con ITG. Actually quick go thru only time I see them testing more than 1 non ITG of a family is when it's a different job or completely different element like well elementals

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    First is super fluff lol.

    2nd sort of is too but more of the obvious. Also only done quick check so far but it looked to me that only true subspecies they had that had different values were things that con ITG. Actually quick go thru only time I see them testing more than 1 non ITG of a family is when it's a different job or completely different element like well elementals
    Just a few examples that I noticed: snow rabbits, snow lizards and eruca all have different resist values than their normal brethren. Wouldn't be surprised if there were others w/ similar obvious elemental leanings as well.

  13. #53
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Are you asking if you can get a resist and it not be any different than a non resist? Not really sure how you could call that a resist lol.

    I mean I guess the game could be coded any way you want but that totally flies in the face of all old debuff resist state testing and well just sounds crazy lol. Note also applied to blind AND poison on 2 different lower mobs.

    No full dmg noctos even with arts and ilvl weapon and no 15 second sleeps though wasn't really trying for low accuracy where I was just missing most of them. Should be noted doing a quick look thru the list I don't see any non nm that has a value under 30% except elements and umbrils for any element (though only like 1/4 the way thru it right now holy hell is the list long lol). Given the absolute resist of elementals went to try a lvl 100 umbril (Dark 10%). And yeah even with elemental seal on macc geared sch/blm couldn't land sleep or blind but was hitting immunobreaks like crazy... but once I got the immunbreaks which eventually allowed me to land a full duration sleep II.

    As far as absorbs that's kind of a different beast. Was getting only 1/4 and 1/2 durations on imps. Dark elementals were super weird where vast majority wouldn't land and the one that did was some super weird 15 sec

    Almost makes me think SDT is still on in general but they changed it works for the spells applicable with the immunobreak update and I guess also skillchains need not apply either. Given how far back it's been since I did debuff duration with SDT that sort of fits lol
    To the contrary; I think that coding it that way would be the most natural way to do it, given that it means they only need one "system" of resist states, and that correlating the states like that would be simple.

    How does that fly in the face of old debuff resist state testing? Without things like possible forced resists like SDT, the only manifestation something like this would have is that it would seem slightly easier to get a full duration sleep, something that could easily have been blamed on Sleep having a higher innate MACC than it actually does, or on the mob having lower dark resistance than it actually does.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Just a few examples that I noticed: snow rabbits, snow lizards and eruca all have different resist values than their normal brethren. Wouldn't be surprised if there were others w/ similar obvious elemental leanings as well.
    That's actually kind of what I meant by elements lol. Like things that actually shoot out magic dmg of different elements vice just slight reskins and maybe slightly different move sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    To the contrary; I think that coding it that way would be the most natural way to do it, given that it means they only need one "system" of resist states, and that correlating the states like that would be simple.

    How does that fly in the face of old debuff resist state testing? Without things like possible forced resists like SDT, the only manifestation something like this would have is that it would seem slightly easier to get a full duration sleep, something that could easily have been blamed on Sleep having a higher innate MACC than it actually does, or on the mob having lower dark resistance than it actually does.
    If you are assuming that they did this all at the same time and it's being applied sure. Though that doesn't explain all the other debuffs (did poison and blind too) how it didn't used to be like that or elemental magic clearly getting another reduction... I'm willing to bet every spell that can immunobreak and has a set duration will be the same... so I guess slow and silence is left? Hmmm but I don't think other versions of spells can so maybe try blu debuffs....

    As far as resist testing that's simple matter of rates and caps. In fact that would be literally the only way to see it since there is no other way to differentiate between the full durations. Particularly individual resist states are based on total resist rates. And for a given magic hit rate we'd get the same number of half dmgs as half durations and 1/4 dmgs as full resists.

    But what really makes it obvious is how it would interact with caps/floors particularly the floor. Min land rate outside of weird things that have 0 and will only lands with immunobreak is 5% (which does seem determined by these super low values random testing makes it seem like under 30% is the cutoff based on element though some will be based on debuff type and resist traits)... now that is for full no resist. With 5% hit rate you'd also have 4.75% chance to get 1/2 resist with only 1 resist partial resist that'd put your odds of full resist 90.25%. But add in a 1/4 resist state and you'd have a 4.5125% chance of getting that 1/4 resist. So now your chance to just land the debuff is 14.2625% even with floored macc.

    I suppose it's possible they could've changed it at some point (though unlikely given how much of a boon that is) but the semi recentish testing I did on sleeping mosquitos suggests not though could certainly use for a slightly bigger sample size to definitely rule it out.

  15. #55
    Ridill
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    Whelp scratch that theory. Full duration dark element blu sleeps on imps. While no immunobreaks on skeletons.

    Next theory only debuffs that have resist traits circumvent which technically are the only things that can get the completely resist and immunobreak messages (at least of the ones we can directly cast) but it seems only when using spell of the same name. Oddly enough looks like only set duration ones left that I haven't done are still slow and silence. Slow on protoamoeban (50% earth) full duration... also the duration on bg wiki was lower than it actually was so for a second thought I got 50% increased duration. So yeah had to fix that. And having a hard time finding a good one for silence. It is difficult as heck finding any mob with lower than 60% that either doesn't con ITG isn't extreme gunna full resist anyways like elemental or isn't an "nm type" of mob

    Only a couple of set duration enfeebling spells that don't fit that category being frazzle and distract. Frazzle imps, Distract on frost gigas both couldn't get above half duration. Though a bunch of other enfeebling effects like stat down that also fit so need to look those up I guess.

    Only other resist trait debuff players can apply with fixed duration is blade bash but lol sam.

  16. #56

    It seems pretty much every Aht Urghan variant of monster families has higher elemental resistances across the board compared to Vanilla/Zilart/CoP. It's no wonder the expansion killed off mages and magic bursting, SE was really trying to stick it to BLM in multiple ways

  17. #57
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    I'm a little fuzzy on the timing, but I think when they did the GEO bugfix, the devs explained how debuff accuracy works. Basically, mobs have status resist & elemental resists, and status trumps elemental. In the case of where a mob does not have a set value for a particular status resistance, it then defaults to the elemental resistance value.

    In other words, those confusing results on skeletons may be due to them having a rather low preset value for "Resist Sleep" that is overriding their dark elemental resist. It could also be due to quirks with blue magic occasionally behaving differently than expected. They may not technically count as "Sleep" effects and your macc is enough to overcome their dark resist value.

    Should note that there is no clearly stated connection between the percents given and debuffs from that site. The percents given are only indicative of elemental damage results.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I'm a little fuzzy on the timing, but I think when they did the GEO bugfix, the devs explained how debuff accuracy works. Basically, mobs have status resist & elemental resists, and status trumps elemental. In the case of where a mob does not have a set value for a particular status resistance, it then defaults to the elemental resistance value.

    In other words, those confusing results on skeletons may be due to them having a rather low preset value for "Resist Sleep" that is overriding their dark elemental resist. It could also be due to quirks with blue magic occasionally behaving differently than expected. They may not technically count as "Sleep" effects and your macc is enough to overcome their dark resist value.

    Should note that there is no clearly stated connection between the percents given and debuffs from that site. The percents given are only indicative of elemental damage results.
    That explanation seems about right though I'd say probably more like adds together than trumps. This is kind of noticeable in well sleep. Some things with medium dark resist can't be slept with dark based but things with higher dark can while both can be easily slept with light based. And similar with light based

    It seems I missed a bit on sleep part which has caused you to misunderstand the skeleton part and well sleeping skeletons in general. Was meant to be full duration on imps. No immunobreaks on skeletons.

    Skeletons do in fact have a "soft immunity" to dark based sleep completely independent of their dark resist (in that you can sleep more dark resistant mobs). You will never land a dark based sleep on them without immunobreak or stymie. And indeed after like 30+ of them on the low level gusgen ones I hadn't so clearly still counts as dark sleep.

    But that wasn't what I was there for and testing. I was testing to see if I could get an immunobreak because well half the point of immunobreak system was to provide a method of debuffing all those nms they had made immune to debuffs while still making it so you'd fail with elemental seal lol. Basically was trying to prove if it was immunobreak spells weren't subject to the SDT and it looks more like the whole debuff associated with them. Also blu quirks are purely elemental in that spell element is different than the debuff associated with it. And most of that really has to do with either inflicting multiple statuses or being a dmg spell that also does a status. Not all the absorbs do that too.. the spell is dark but the stat down varies from stat to stat.

    As far debuffs I think you haven't been keeping up with the conversation. But to repeat myself the site states (or at least the translation does) under 60% guarantees half resist on all spells... which you'd think included ya know all even though their example seems to only really be about nukes. Even more so since Fwahm noted it applying to absorbs. Side note it also includes non spell magic dmg in case you are wondering though not skillchain dmg but probably because that's already accounted for the in the exact precentage. And then we got to discussing how there example hints that it's more likely SDT than a real resist since they included an extra resist state. Debuffs would be the next logical step since well that's how SDT has traditionally worked it acted as 1/2 resist separate and multiplied with normal resists. And for some things it worked. For others not so much. So the whole point of the last several tests I've been doing was to see what debuffs were hit and which weren't. Should also be noted the talk about extreme resist with the very low percentages also apply to debuffs and seems to also apply to the ones this sdt isn't

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    That explanation seems about right though I'd say probably more like adds together than trumps. This is kind of noticeable in well sleep. Some things with medium dark resist can't be slept with dark based but things with higher dark can while both can be easily slept with light based. And similar with light based

    It seems I missed a bit on sleep part which has caused you to misunderstand the skeleton part and well sleeping skeletons in general. Was meant to be full duration on imps. No immunobreaks on skeletons.

    Skeletons do in fact have a "soft immunity" to dark based sleep completely independent of their dark resist (in that you can sleep more dark resistant mobs). You will never land a dark based sleep on them without immunobreak or stymie. And indeed after like 30+ of them on the low level gusgen ones I hadn't so clearly still counts as dark sleep.

    But that wasn't what I was there for and testing. I was testing to see if I could get an immunobreak because well half the point of immunobreak system was to provide a method of debuffing all those nms they had made immune to debuffs while still making it so you'd fail with elemental seal lol. Basically was trying to prove if it was immunobreak spells weren't subject to the SDT and it looks more like the whole debuff associated with them. Also blu quirks are purely elemental in that spell element is different than the debuff associated with it. And most of that really has to do with either inflicting multiple statuses or being a dmg spell that also does a status. Not all the absorbs do that too.. the spell is dark but the stat down varies from stat to stat.

    As far debuffs I think you haven't been keeping up with the conversation. But to repeat myself the site states (or at least the translation does) under 60% guarantees half resist on all spells... which you'd think included ya know all even though their example seems to only really be about nukes. Even more so since Fwahm noted it applying to absorbs. Side note it also includes non spell magic dmg in case you are wondering though not skillchain dmg but probably because that's already accounted for the in the exact precentage. And then we got to discussing how there example hints that it's more likely SDT than a real resist since they included an extra resist state. Debuffs would be the next logical step since well that's how SDT has traditionally worked it acted as 1/2 resist separate and multiplied with normal resists. And for some things it worked. For others not so much. So the whole point of the last several tests I've been doing was to see what debuffs were hit and which weren't. Should also be noted the talk about extreme resist with the very low percentages also apply to debuffs and seems to also apply to the ones this sdt isn't
    I may be a bit fuzzy on the details of what was stated as well, but I am pretty sure that it was in response to Frazzle being horrible to land vs some mobs, and that the dev response was that there was no "Resist Frazzle" trait so the system was defaulting to dark resist values after trying to check the non-existent resist trait.

    The thing about debuffs is that site does not say "all spells" anywhere in the explanation. It is specifically addressing magic damage only. The only mention that I see about buffs/debuffs is that even with things like Frazzle and Focus up it will be impossible to deal full magic damage if the rating is 50% or lower (indicating that the ratings are independent of macc,) that Rayke only bumps up damage by +1 rank per rune (so 1-3 to the right on the scale), that during MB windows you bump up damage by +1 rank, and that Subtle Sorcery does something funky/unique. There is no indication that the ranks affect magic accuracy at all in fact.

    I am following the conversation fine. XD The translation from Tarowyn does not use the words "all spells" anywhere in it, and in Fwahm's absorb testing he said "I'm not sure how it corresponds to nuke resists" and there could be no connection at all. There is no current evidence based on that site that says or shows that the damage resistances have any correlation with non-damaging magic accuracy. Could try Rayke'ing some things to see if that reduces their debuff resistance if you want to test directly? I'm thinking Velkk w/ their apparent baseline of water+50% + Poison might make a good test subject?

    TBH, I've never understood the finer points or benefits of the Immunobreak system since most of the time that I get them, I'm getting a wall of resists and more Immunobreaks without the spell ever landing. ^^;;

  20. #60
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    Sylph

    You'll have to find that post for us, as the Resist Frazzle post is something else. In that post, they only said that Frazzle cannot get Immunobreaks because there is no specific Resist Frazzle trait, so they gave Frazzle a higher than normal magic accuracy boost to try to help compensate for that. There was nothing in that post about enfeebles ignoring elemental resistance when they had a resist trait.

    I'm not saying that they never said this is how it works, but if they did, it's in a different post, and I'd be interested to see it. It'd explain the difference between the normal enfeebles being able to hit full duration even with <50%, while it being impossible with Absorbs, Distract, and Frazzle.

    However, about the sleep thing, IIRC, there's a wrinkle in that Ghosts are fairly vulnerable to dark magic sleep, but are incredibly resistant to lullaby. Unless Lullaby and Sleep are categorized differently despite both hitting Resist Sleep traits and both having the same complete immunities on NMs, that doesn't seem to be consistent with the Status Resistance > Elemental Resistance theory.

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