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  1. #61
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I may be a bit fuzzy on the details of what was stated as well, but I am pretty sure that it was in response to Frazzle being horrible to land vs some mobs, and that the dev response was that there was no "Resist Frazzle" trait so the system was defaulting to dark resist values after trying to check the non-existent resist trait.

    The thing about debuffs is that site does not say "all spells" anywhere in the explanation. It is specifically addressing magic damage only. The only mention that I see about buffs/debuffs is that even with things like Frazzle and Focus up it will be impossible to deal full magic damage if the rating is 50% or lower (indicating that the ratings are independent of macc,) that Rayke only bumps up damage by +1 rank per rune (so 1-3 to the right on the scale), that during MB windows you bump up damage by +1 rank, and that Subtle Sorcery does something funky/unique. There is no indication that the ranks affect magic accuracy at all in fact.

    I am following the conversation fine. XD The translation from Tarowyn does not use the words "all spells" anywhere in it, and in Fwahm's absorb testing he said "I'm not sure how it corresponds to nuke resists" and there could be no connection at all. There is no current evidence based on that site that says or shows that the damage resistances have any correlation with non-damaging magic accuracy. Could try Rayke'ing some things to see if that reduces their debuff resistance if you want to test directly? I'm thinking Velkk w/ their apparent baseline of water+50% + Poison might make a good test subject?

    TBH, I've never understood the finer points or benefits of the Immunobreak system since most of the time that I get them, I'm getting a wall of resists and more Immunobreaks without the spell ever landing. ^^;;
    I think you are mixing up different frazzle talks. They've talked about how suck it up a lot of mobs resist dark before and those mobs will resist all dark stuff and they've talked about how because there is no resist trait it can't immunobreak but also ends up having higher macc (which doesn't matter at all for things you need immunobreak to land spells). If there was one I'd like to see it and well if it is true then they've made it hard to figure out since everything with a high elemental resistance corresponding resist traits for debuffs of those elements lol. But I guess that would explain why SDT isn't applied anymore when it used to be but why the extreme resistance still works. But fuck what a work around that is lol.

    Like I added at least according to the translation in the OP. As far as the rest like said talking about SDT not an actual resist though they term it as resistance. That said from the update notes when this was done these dmgs follow resistances so.... It also talks a ton about resisting at the bottom Yes for nukes that is displayed by dmg it's still a resist.

    No offense but not sure you are. You kind of keep going back to this but the site only said this for a response ignoring the further testing in this thread. Like how we are talking about SDT not an actual resist. They aren't the same. As far as the translations no the exact words "all spells" doesn't appear. So here I'll quote "For elements in which the skillchain damage multipler is 50% or less, spells of that element get guaranteed resists" Yes it goes on and only talks about damage spells but it also talks about tiers and . Or how Fwahm already pointed out the update notes said there is a direct correlation between skillchain dmg modification and resistance. Or how Poison wouldn't be a good example because as already explained above it is one of the ones not being effected <.<. Based on the work I've done so far seems like everything that uses a resist trait is unaffected. So would have to use things like elemental debuffs, absorbs, frazzle, distract etc. Which have been doing and it has corresponding to the 50% or less thing (well up to a point under 20% things get a bit more extreme but that's testing for another day) but yeah haven't done Rayke yet. I only work so fast man and still got content and other testing to do lol. Was really just trying to nail down what spells were and weren't effected last night

    Overall you seem to be getting really really hung up on the percent modifiers that only apply to skillchain dmg when that isn't the point of the current line of talks. Aside from verifying more values that seems exactly as they said and values have lined up so far. What is being discussed and tested now (and not just on the site) is how a certain point (what they call 50% or lower) that increased resistance translates into reductions in other forms of magic that mimic a separate resist commonly known by the English side as SDT. Basically elemental resistance is playing double duty here. First it's making things noticeable harder to fully land spells by some amount based on the exact number and then at certain thresholds (I use plural here because they seem to imply at even lower amounts it does something different and everyone and there mom sees how crazy it gets on things with extreme elemental resistance like elementals) it causes reductions similar to but independent of resistance calculations.

    NA side testing of Immunobreak is kind of meh. But from what I've gathered and SE has stated it procing seems to basically be a 2nd calculation similar to landing the spell but only really accounts for macc/meva. So like a mob you would definitely land a certain debuff on if it wasn't for having a resistance to that debuff or element but can't because of that you'd likely get an immunobreak. As the example above even a fully decked out rdm with elemental seal wont land Sleep on a skeleton even though it's not "completely immune". No really I've set my character in max haste/fast cast for a couple of hours and not once. But with all that macc got immunobreak procs fairly often (though each one made the next one less likely).

    Now what exactly the immunobreak does is hard to say going by bg wiki, testing I've done and seen it seems to give some measure of reduction in whatever it was preventing landing spells regardless of macc though not sure if it does anything for your macc. This gives you a chance to land spells on otherwise impossible to land mobs though still dependent on normal macc/meva calculations. Like my odds of landing sleep on those skeletons was pretty high after 1 and 100% after 2 but on higher level ones yeah would still have to worry about normal resist. According to bg wiki after 4 if you have enough macc aka use elemental seal you will have 100% chance. Given those 2 it would suggest there is varying levels of what I've termed "soft immunities". Some might take more or less immunobreaks to overcome.

    Reason why I'm bringing up immunobreaks is 2 fold. One is the already gone over how things with resist traits (which are also the things that can get immunobreak) seem immune to the SDT... which is also somewhat weird because they definitely didn't a long time ago. It was one of the defining characteristics of it and how it differed from just random percent damage reduction to an element. But also bringing it up because like 50% guesswork and needs a bunch of testing that it doesn't look like they wanted to go into (or maybe they did on a completely different page lol) so bear with me but based on how this chart is working with SDT and their talk of how extreme resistances get at even lower values and just common knowledge of how things do that there may a link between the 2. Like let's say 10% or lower guarantees a full resist on normal casting (it does for debuffs pretty sure nukes too but not 100%) let's say 15% gave 50% chance to full resist independent of macc and 20% you went back to normal. If something like that was happening based on how we've seen immunobreak working it's possible immunobreak is moving you up a rank or so. So things ridiculously low might require all 4 while things closer might only require 1-2. Of course this is more complicated with debuffs due to resist traits. My thought would be most likely it'd just add on so like if you were 30% on dark in general you could land most dark stuff albeit a little harder but if you tacked on a resistance to sleep on their dark sleep specifically might be more like 10% tier while light based would still be 80% (no idea what skeletons base light is so made that up but you get the idea). That said more testing and who knows your dev note idea might be it but it also happens to correspond with elemental anyways

    Yes I get a decent portion of this isn't on the site or well anywhere right now. That's actually kind of part of the point of this page. Not only to bring over and verify what they did but to make next logical steps/fill in gaps in it. And that's what most the last part of the page or I've been doing has been about. Like how do you talk about automatic resists and only use nuke examples lol. It's a work in progress but I'm trying to be careful in what I state as theory/to be tested and what I'm stating as fact and I've already tested. So if I'm stating this is how it's working and corresponding that's things I've tested and might not 100% be on the site but was likely given the idea by what was on the site or wasn't on it in some cases

  2. #62
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    You'll have to find that post for us, as the Resist Frazzle post is something else. In that post, they only said that Frazzle cannot get Immunobreaks because there is no specific Resist Frazzle trait, so they gave Frazzle a higher than normal magic accuracy boost to try to help compensate for that. There was nothing in that post about enfeebles ignoring elemental resistance when they had a resist trait.

    I'm not saying that they never said this is how it works, but if they did, it's in a different post, and I'd be interested to see it. It'd explain the difference between the normal enfeebles being able to hit full duration even with <50%, while it being impossible with Absorbs, Distract, and Frazzle.

    However, about the sleep thing, IIRC, there's a wrinkle in that Ghosts are fairly vulnerable to dark magic sleep, but are incredibly resistant to lullaby. Unless Lullaby and Sleep are categorized differently despite both hitting Resist Sleep traits and both having the same complete immunities on NMs, that doesn't seem to be consistent with the Status Resistance > Elemental Resistance theory.
    I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is that Sleep (Spell) and Lullaby while haveing different Elementals aligend also check against different stats while also possibly haveing different base m.acc values? (as in one is Magic and checks against INT/MND and the other is a song and checks against CHR) Songs were allways different in 11, they dont draw magic aggro etc.

  3. #63
    Ridill
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    So for further reference and testing compiled a list various spells that give debuffs. Purposefully left a bunch out. Ones with resist status obviously got the axe since they in some way work differently it seems. Also left out ones attached to damage spells because those tend to be very odd and the resist of the debuff attached is usually the element generally associated with that debuff not the dmg but sometimes it does weird stuff like impact. Also left out ones that give multiple debuffs for similar reason. And of course left out ones with variable durations as they are just unsuitable for testing anything but full resist. Should be enough for testing but if anyone can think of others... also yes drk spells are weird but I included them because it's really easy to tell resist is dark based despite the debuffs element

    Fire- Sound blast (30 sec int down), Lowing (wiki says 40-60 sec but could swear it was static need more testing. Anyways disease), Ice Threnody (1 min Ice resist down), Burn (90 sec int down)

    Wind- Stinking Gas (60 sec vit down), Frightful Roar (3 min def down), Earth Threnody (1 min Earth resist down), Choke (90 sec vit down)

    Lightning-Water Threnody (1 min Water resist down), Shock (90 sec MND down)

    Light- Dark Threnody (1 min Dark resist down),

    Ice-Infrasonics (60 sec evasion down), Distract (5 min eva down), Wind Threnody (1 min Wind resist down), Frost (90 sec agi down)

    Earth-Lightning Threnody (1 min Lightning resist down), Rasp (90 sec dex down)

    Water-Awful Eye (30 sec str down), Aisha: Ichi (2 min attack down) Fire Threnody (1 min Fire resist down), Drown (90 sec str down)

    Dark- Frazzle (5 min meva down), Light Threnody (1 min Light resist down). Absorbs stat (90 sec stat down)

    Now to go thru that huge list for things with specific high resistances that aren't nms. Never before realized how few existed lol

  4. #64
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    Stuff.
    So apparently when I quote what was actually said BG is blocking me... sorry to snip your stuff lol.

    I think that was part of the point. That just a sleep resistance wasn't the only thing being accounted for but also the elements. Though it could possible count it as a completely different stat not sure. Doesn't the jt resist sleep work on both? Shit is weird I'm sure I'll run across some jp blog that has more info as they appear to be figuring some stuff out and I actually know of one that was doing macc testing so plan on going back and delving thru once I get this basic filling in and expanding of this well and verification. Actually Maybe Tarowyn knows...

    The Aggro thing though is really a case of detects spellcasting is really detects spells that consume mp. Ninjitsu, Trusts, And enchantment spells also don't

  5. #65
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    I've gone thru every linkable page on that site and did not find any other explanations, theories, connections, etc from what their database is recording (just damage taken resistances, and I agree that we might need to rework naming conventions.)

    I wasn't playing at the time of the related 2014 update, and I don't remember much about skillchain mechanics from BITD since I was spoony4life back then so didn't get to whack mobs all that often, so I can't speak to exactly how skillchain damage was determined back then. From that site, it sounds like prior to the update, skillchain damage was "skillchain damage" and used it's own formula with fixed/static damage, and after the update skillchain damage basically became "magic damage" for calculation purposes.

    Since there is no mention of how macc/debuffs other than how even massive amounts of macc won't overcome the 50% or lower rankings, I am only disagreeing with you stating that the site says it does. I don't know yet if there are any correlations between the resist ranks and debuffs, and I personally don't believe that they are likely to directly correlate, but I am definitely looking forward to the testing results that you guys come up with.

    I've gone crawling thru the EN dev tracker on OF, and didn't find what I remembered, so I'm probably just misremembering something somewhere. ^^;; I'll try JPside later JIC it was a trans error or the like.

  6. #66
    Chram
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    Before the update, SC damage was pure magic damage, in that it was based on your MACC vs foe's MEVA in general, and could be resisted the same as a nuke. Back then, the monster's elemental affinities did not affect the base damage at all, and only affected resist chance and SDT cuts.

  7. #67
    Chram
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    Now that I think about it, I think Repose has the same problem on ghosts as lullaby, meaning it's not due to a magic vs song divide.

  8. #68
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I've gone thru every linkable page on that site and did not find any other explanations, theories, connections, etc from what their database is recording (just damage taken resistances, and I agree that we might need to rework naming conventions.)

    I wasn't playing at the time of the related 2014 update, and I don't remember much about skillchain mechanics from BITD since I was spoony4life back then so didn't get to whack mobs all that often, so I can't speak to exactly how skillchain damage was determined back then. From that site, it sounds like prior to the update, skillchain damage was "skillchain damage" and used it's own formula with fixed/static damage, and after the update skillchain damage basically became "magic damage" for calculation purposes.

    Since there is no mention of how macc/debuffs other than how even massive amounts of macc won't overcome the 50% or lower rankings, I am only disagreeing with you stating that the site says it does. I don't know yet if there are any correlations between the resist ranks and debuffs, and I personally don't believe that they are likely to directly correlate, but I am definitely looking forward to the testing results that you guys come up with.

    I've gone crawling thru the EN dev tracker on OF, and didn't find what I remembered, so I'm probably just misremembering something somewhere. ^^;; I'll try JPside later JIC it was a trans error or the like.
    Bah I was hoping they would. Guess I'll have to see if the jp blogs I've seen doing macc stuff have made enough headway that I can combine the testings lol. Or at the very least steal their methodology (they had some really cool way of using automatons to immediately gauge changes in either hit rate or macc/meva without having to do long samples collecting hit rates)

    Fwahm's description is spot on for skillchain dmg though should add that it had terrible acc for melees and was just basically full resist every time even on low level nms which kind of made it pointless to do unless to setup MB which iirc was part of why the changed it.

    I suppose they just meant nukes but it said spells which I took to mean well all spells. Turns out neither is completely correct lol. Also took it to mean sdt where they said resist because well 1/16 resist doesn't exist lol which does seem to be correct. If you scroll thru you can see so far it works with spells without resist traits but not ones with so far with mobs at 30% and 50%. Getting impossible 1/4 resist on debuffs with only 1/2 and full resists and getting 1/2s with overwhelming macc. But yeah Maybe doing rayke in a bit. Heck it could be right... but they shift the ranks for the cutoff or rayke/skillchain wont help but otherwise the follows the rank etc. How it works with resist trait debuffs.... that's for another week since apparently they haven't looked into at all

  9. #69
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    Now that I think about it, I think Repose has the same problem on ghosts as lullaby, meaning it's not due to a magic vs song divide.
    Not sure really myself. Dark and light sleeps should all be lumped together though and they actually have a different buff ID for light and dark sleep

  10. #70
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    I mean, 1/16 being a resist or not is just a matter of how you look at it. When what we call SDT is active, it would be equally valid to call the lowest state a 1/16 resist, or a 1/8 resist with a separate 50% damage cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    I mean, 1/16 being a resist or not is just a matter of how you look at it. When what we call SDT is active, it would be equally valid to call the lowest state a 1/16 resist, or a 1/8 resist with a separate 50% damage cut.
    I agree. It's not really a new resist state. I think the way it's worded on the db would be like:
    +60% = .6*(expected damage) ; normal resist rates based on macc/meva
    +50% = .5*(expected damage) ; guaranteed resist, macc/meva only affects resist state

    This would mean that there is not a new resist state since "full damage" would be 50% (or less depending on rank,) then the standard resist states are applied to that value. The only new part there is that the 50% or lower ranks include a guaranteed resist (outside of Subtle Sorcery.)

  12. #72
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    Sorry late to respond but it's more akin to an extra state or a separate reduction (which are basically semantics differences until we get to potential weird rounding which I suppose would be one way of figuring it out). It's not really a matter of how it's worded but how the game works. We can't really look at it as just a guaranteed at least 1/2 resist. You literally cannot get a 1/4 duration or a 1/16 dmg (outside of mdt/bdt or specific element reductions) without what we call sdt.

    On another note apparently (verification needed. Crap already forgotten what all I still need to verify lol) these ranks can in fact effect dmg outside the sdt and weird stuff at really low values. It's says just MB but not sure if they tested other stuff.

    http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luteff11/...b/eb58ab1e.png

  13. #73
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Sorry late to respond but it's more akin to an extra state or a separate reduction (which are basically semantics differences until we get to potential weird rounding which I suppose would be one way of figuring it out). It's not really a matter of how it's worded but how the game works. We can't really look at it as just a guaranteed at least 1/2 resist. You literally cannot get a 1/4 duration or a 1/16 dmg (outside of mdt/bdt or specific element reductions) without what we call sdt.

    On another note apparently (verification needed. Crap already forgotten what all I still need to verify lol) these ranks can in fact effect dmg outside the sdt and weird stuff at really low values. It's says just MB but not sure if they tested other stuff.

    http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luteff11/...b/eb58ab1e.png
    We absolutely can get a 1/4 duration or 1/16 damage if you include what WE call SDT. Just because it's not possibly normally doesn't mean it's impossible under certain conditions (namely, enemies that have enough resistance to include what we call "SDT".

    Unless we can find data pointing to whether SDT guarantees another resist state (outside of stuff like Rayke) or whether it's a simple multiplier, it's equally valid to call it a 1/16 resist or a 1/8 resist with an additional 50% cut.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    We absolutely can get a 1/4 duration or 1/16 damage if you include what WE call SDT. Just because it's not possibly normally doesn't mean it's impossible under certain conditions (namely, enemies that have enough resistance to include what we call "SDT".

    Unless we can find data pointing to whether SDT guarantees another resist state (outside of stuff like Rayke) or whether it's a simple multiplier, it's equally valid to call it a 1/16 resist or a 1/8 resist with an additional 50% cut.
    I.... um... why did you just make a quote to just repeat what it said?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    I.... um... why did you just make a quote to just repeat what it said?
    Because I misread this:
    "We can't really look at it as just a guaranteed at least 1/2 resist."
    as
    "We can't really look at it as just an additional guaranteed at least 1/2 resist." (which it could very well be)

  16. #76
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    Ah so was looking into trying to verify or develop a test to see which it is and looked at bg wiki's dmg calculation and it shows them separate with SDT coming right before resist... only 2 problems.

    1. Most the links related are broken so can't see how they verified order though I know a bit was done back in the day....

    2. Was looking into numbers and using how things it floors each step and quickly realized I'm dumb and pretty sure there is no number that would give a different result if it was separate or either order.

    So guess we just gotta ask Mr. Owl

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    Here's a txt file of a current rip of the raw GTrans'd database. I was kinda planning on cleaning it up like Dasva did for the above entries, but wasn't sure if it was needed or exactly what I should do to it.

    Link here

    What format would be best to make it simpler to import the data into the wiki?
    Should I use element names (ie: "Fire") or keep the skillchain element names like in the source (ie: "Liquefaction")?
    Is it worthwhile to clean up the notes for non-impacting information (ie: beetles have a lot of the species they are patterned off of listed)?
    Would an Excel spreadsheet be easier to work with for whoever is importing it into bgwiki?
    Could you do a replace all on the elements in here so I actually know what they are?

    Some are written with similar but different names (just relevant for replacing all names), and aren't all in the same written order. I started eliminating what they must mean based on Dasva listing values, and then I got to Absolute Virtue and had Light as 30% when Dark was 30% so I said fuck it and closed it since I clearly was replacing the wrong things.

  18. #78
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    It goes MDT/MDB
    then it does the same order as the equipment screen which is why there is 2 rows of 4... but the translated version at least shows slightly different names each time. Also for porting it into wiki think we definitely just going to need a page for this that links to the things like skillchain and MB pages to explain dmg differences. But as far as individual values... wonder if we should have a page for groups of mobs like that or just find a way to put it on their pages?

    Side note got to do a tiny bit of testing this weekend though not as much as I wanted thanks to the fire. Went to skeletons 50% dark and sure enough half duration on absorbs each time. Single dark rune rayke and bam full duration. But even with 3 runes couldn't even land sleep. Makes me think there might be some merit to Nyarlko's idea even if a dev didn't say it. Also tried +6 song which had no effect on either sleep or absorbs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicyryan View Post
    Could you do a replace all on the elements in here so I actually know what they are?

    Some are written with similar but different names (just relevant for replacing all names), and aren't all in the same written order. I started eliminating what they must mean based on Dasva listing values, and then I got to Absolute Virtue and had Light as 30% when Dark was 30% so I said fuck it and closed it since I clearly was replacing the wrong things.
    I posted the link to the cleaned up / no notes version earlier, but here it is again. Looking at it again, I can see why it got lost. ^^;; All notes have been stripped out, I tried correcting all zone names, and corrected/replaced all of the elements to their related skillchain element names.

    Would you prefer it in an Excel or is text file fine?

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyarlko View Post
    I posted the link to the cleaned up / no notes version earlier, but here it is again. Looking at it again, I can see why it got lost. ^^;; All notes have been stripped out, I tried correcting all zone names, and corrected/replaced all of the elements to their related skillchain element names.

    Would you prefer it in an Excel or is text file fine?
    It will likely all be by hand anyway, and changes need to be made first in the templates to accommodate the info. I will have to get the others together to decide

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