Dragonball Z/Super (2015) TOP and Beyond (109+) II

[Xno Kappa]

lol

[Zealot]

Question, is Vegeta's brother canon?

[Cream Soda]

Question, is Vegeta's brother canon?

Was, but retconned.

The special itself was not considered canon. He was mentioned in BoG, which was canon at one point; but when they redid it in Super, Super is considered the canon.

Tarble was mentioned in BoG when looking for a 6th saiyan. That line was removed from Super, so he no longer is seen or mentioned anywhere in canon

[Fwahm]

I thought Toriyama wrote the story for Yo! Son Goku, meaning that until we get further info, it's tentatively considered canon?

[Cream Soda]

I thought Toriyama wrote the story for Yo! Son Goku, meaning that until we get further info, it's tentatively considered canon?

He was involved w/ it, not sure if he wrote the whole thing though. That said, he actually wrote a good chunk of filler for Z (like Yamcha being a baseball player was him. The Saiyan's past was also him (and not the one where frieza blew it up but the history King Kai gave Goku) etc.

[Xno Kappa]

Apparently the English voice actor for Frieza has some kind of fucked up lung disease and requires a transplant.

https://twitter.com/RPGSite/status/930910351842951168

[Cream Soda]

Food for thought (and yes, power levels were relevant at this time, so I'm going to use math).

People complaining about all the asspulls may realize they've been doing it forever, but don't realize one of the biggest ones in the series.

Goku on Namek. His power level is 90k when he arrives (from 8k on earth and 5 days training on the ship). This is verified by Ginyu getting a reading of 180k when he uses kaioken (which doubles your power).

So Goku gets the largest Zenkai in the series from a battle he didn't even participate in (Vegeta vs Ginyu in Goku's body) and came out of the rejuvenation tank at 3million base. Then gets ssj1 and has a power of 150m.

90k to 150m in the same day for doing nothing but getting angry is a 1,666x boost in power.

Comparatively speaking, if he didn't get the Zenkai and merely skipped to ssj3 instead of ssj3, he would have had a battle power of 36 million.

Let's take ssj1 out of the equation all together. Zenkai alone, he's a 3 mil. He also used kaioken x20 before getting ssj1. 3m x 20 = 60 mil. (almost twice as strong than going ssj3)

People complain a lot about more recent ass pulls but swear by Namek as being the best saga by far. (in terms of consistency, etc.)

TLDR; Turn off your brain. Enjoy the show for what it is. Everyone gets ass pulls.

[Vaspinne]

Hey man, emotions are a big deal in Shonen manga. How else do you explain the hax that is the Sharingan Tank?

[Cream Soda]

For those who theorized that Vegeta was hiding something, you're in for a treat. 117 spoilers

Spoiler: show

The android combo rescues Goku from danger!

Ribrianne targets Goku right as he's worn out from fighting! But then 17 and 18 appear! 18 takes Goku's place in battling Ribrianne, while 17 takes on Rozie in one-to-one combat. Can the two of them prevail against Universe 2's strongest?!

Vegeta This Week
In order to use "Ultra Instinct", Vegeta mimics Goku and tries to act unconsciously! However, ultimately he fails and is attacked by Katopesla!

[DrClout]

For those who theorized that Vegeta was hiding something, you're in for a treat. 117 spoilers

Spoiler: show

The android combo rescues Goku from danger!

Ribrianne targets Goku right as he's worn out from fighting! But then 17 and 18 appear! 18 takes Goku's place in battling Ribrianne, while 17 takes on Rozie in one-to-one combat. Can the two of them prevail against Universe 2's strongest?!

Vegeta This Week
In order to use "Ultra Instinct", Vegeta mimics Goku and tries to act unconsciously! However, ultimately he fails and is attacked by Katopesla!

Lmfao

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[BWYuko]

90k to 150m in the same day for doing nothing but getting angry is a 1,666x boost in power.

While your comment is about how asspulling isn't new (and I completely agree - it's a staple of the entire series), this is the only part I take issue with, and only because it's so hard to be totally accurate about this.
With Namek having 3 suns, time is completely fucked through that whole arc.
It's really, REALLY hard to determine whether Goku's arrival, Ginyu fight, healing, and Freezer fight all happened in a single day.

Bulma says Goku will take 7 days to arrive. In that span, no one eats or rests at all. We barely have any references to pinpoint passage of time.
In fact the only person I can ever remember resting is Vegeta, who did so twice: first in the healing tank after his loss to Zarbon, and then he took a nap while Goku was in the tank after fighting Ginyu.

How long was Goku training at 100G - 5 of those 7 days?
How long was he in the healing tank after Ginyu? Seemingly about as long as he was in transit to Namek.
We have no way to tell if it was actually longer or shorter, but it's certainly presented as a similar wait cuz it's an early 90s shonen plot.

Then there's the infamous "5 minutes" it took the planet to blow up. The whole concept of time is a joke at that point.

And not to be picky but...

Let's take ssj1 out of the equation all together. Zenkai alone, he's a 3 mil. He also used kaioken x20 before getting ssj1. 3m x 20 = 60 mil. (almost twice as strong than going ssj3)

Yes, 2nd form Freeza is clocked at 1M, and that's our reference, but I thought Goku's base out of the tank was maybe only like 1.3-1.5M - near Piccolo+Nail's strength? Not anywhere near 3M.
After already exhausting most of his strength, he had to resort to effectively full-timing Kaioken to keep up with final form Freeza before the Genki Dama was thrown, no?
So KKx20 multiplier was adding bonus to his reserves, not his full strength. Could've sworn King Kai said something like that to the dead Z fighters.

[Cream Soda]

Yes, 2nd form Freeza is clocked at 1M, and that's our reference, but I thought Goku's base out of the tank was maybe only like 1.3-1.5M - near Piccolo+Nail's strength? Not anywhere near 3M.

His official battle power was 150m. ssj1 is 50x. That's 3m base. Kaioken x20 had him at 60m which is half of frieza's full power.

[Zealot]

I thought the biggest jump on Namek was Piccolo going from ??? (no idea if he actually gained anything on King Kai's world so potentially <5000) to ~1M after fusing with Nail.

Then again jumping from 1M+ to strong enough to evenly fight Android 17/first form Cell on Earth, both of whom were stronger than SSJ Goku/Vegeta.

[Cream Soda]

I thought the biggest jump on Namek was Piccolo going from ??? (no idea if he actually gained anything on King Kai's world so potentially <5000) to ~1M after fusing with Nail.

Then again jumping from 1M+ to strong enough to evenly fight Android 17/first form Cell on Earth, both of whom were stronger than SSJ Goku/Vegeta.

Nail was like 30 or 40k though; we don't have any sort of Namek multiplier but even if it was something as (A + B) x20, that'd put him right there w/ Frieza form 2

Edit: and I'm basing the timeline on the fact that Gohan, Vegeta, etc. never stopped fighting to go to sleep or eat. So on that, naturally, has to be in one day from the time they started fighting Frieza till the time Namek blew up

[Fwahm]

Plus, Nail said that Piccolo had amazing power, so he might have been even stronger than Nail was before the fusion.

[Zealot]

Man, Goku and Piccolo both die and the first thing they do is start training, no days off.

[Elcura]

Man, Goku and Piccolo both die and the first thing they do is start training, no days off.

They died cause they didn't train enough, makes DBZ amounts of sense.

[Inshiya]

Not to mention training is what they both do on their days off. Training is like vacation to Goku.

[Vaspinne]

Not to mention training is what they both do on their days off. Training is like vacation to Goku.

Not true. On their days off they do things together like get their driving licenses.

[Korietsu]