Dragonball Z/Super (2015) TOP and Beyond (109+) II

[Tymon]

Multipliers aren't canon, they're just Daizenshuu stated stuff that was never confirmed by Toriyama. Toriyama makes insane statements all the time that completely contradicts all of those numbers.

He once said that Super Saiyan was like, double power or something. Which would make x20 KK Goku 10x more powerful than SSJ Goku on Namek.

Power level discussions are dumb as hell.

[Cream Soda]

Multipliers aren't canon, they're just Daizenshuu stated stuff that was never confirmed by Toriyama. Toriyama makes insane statements all the time that completely contradicts all of those numbers.

He once said that Super Saiyan was like, double power or something. Which would make x20 KK Goku 10x more powerful than SSJ Goku on Namek.

Power level discussions are dumb as hell.

That interview was actually something along the lines of double power of anything he's currently capable of.

He was capable of kaioken x20; double that would be x40 multiplier, which is near the line of the x50 that came to be.

and this is from the time period where power levels were still relevant. Trunks arc on, aside from Trunks hiding his power and show up at 5 on the scouter, then they were no longer a thing.

[Boyiee]

[Tyrath]

My reaction when the power level shit comes back into this thread every 10 pages.

Like I said, goddamn weebs!

[Salodin]

But it ends the same every time, they just make up power levels as they go along. Why people hold that shit to some sort of canon-cy that applies here is beyond me. Power levels stopped being relevant when using scouters stopped being relevant.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Xno Kappa]

Posts like these make me wish there was a “like” button on BG.

[Tomino]

Actually I find that the DBS manga did an excellent job in chapter 29 trying to provide some sort of context / measurement regarding transformations.

By using Toppo, they basically reviewed every saiyan form by comparing it to him as Goku was showcasing them to Zeno.
So we have:

- SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 are nowhere near Toppo's power. That's an obvious power creep from DBZ to DBS. Note that SSJ Vegito was on a whole another level than SSJ3.
- SS God is closer to Toppo base level but he isn't worried by it. Note that the gap from SSJ3 is considered "huge" from anyone witnessing it. Again, power creep since SSG serves at the "entry level" for DBS and Toppo is a major opponent.
- SSB is even with Toppo, so it pretty much serves as the new entry level for DBS stronger enemies.

Back to the ToP, things may start making some sense:

- Califlua & Kale at SSJ2 are of course inferior to SSG because of the immense power gap.
- Califlua has more battle instincts but Kale has some kind of immense Ki battery
- From DBZ, we know that Potara fusion combines two power levels and then boosts them by a very large amount
- So Califlua gets to use Kale's "infinite" Ki reserve

It makes sense that a SSJ Potara fusion would then surpass SSG and threat SSB as well.

[Cream Soda]

Episode informations

Spoiler: show

Episode 115: Goku vs Kefla! Super Saiyan Blue Defeated?!

Fighting Universe 7's son Goku, Universe 6's Caulifla and Kale use the "Potara" earrings that Kaioshins wear to merge. Facing Goku as "Kefla", they overwhelm him with stupendous power. Witnessing this, the people from the other universes wonder if they too should use Potara to merge, and begin forming plans...

Episode 116: The Comeback Omen! Ultra Instinct's Great Explosion!!

Through his extreme battle with Kefla, Goku once again utilizes "Ultra Instinct", a region which even gods cannot easily obtain. Goku triggers a further power-up in his opponent Kefla.

Episode 117: Grand Love Showdown! Androids vs Universe 2

Grand Love Showdown! Androids vs Universe 2

Episode 118: Accelerating Drama: A Universe Disappears...!

[Tyrath]

Spoiler: show

I saw on reddit something about Vegeta not being serious yet either.

Also Andoids vs Universe 2 followed by a universe disappearing. Wonder who it could be lol

[Cream Soda]

Spoiler: show

I saw on reddit something about Vegeta not being serious yet either.

Also Andoids vs Universe 2 followed by a universe disappearing. Wonder who it could be lol

Spoiler: show

Fajita shit is just speculation. No official announcements/spoilers given on that.

That said, he's pretty much the only person we didn't see training for the tournament. His was purely off screen minus the 2 secs of the time chamber being blown up again. So we'll have to see what he learned

[Tymon]

Spoiler: show

Witnessing this, the people from the other universes wonder if they too should use Potara to merge, and begin forming plans...

[Cream Soda]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Doubt it tbh. Toriyama actually even had no intentions of Vejito coming back. He said it was Toyotaro's (Guy who does the manga) idea to bring him back. Fan service and shit, which is probably why the fusion didn't last long enough for him to do anything worth a fuck.

Compounding w/ the fact that a fused character has never won anything (either fusion ends or w/e; minus movie 12, which isn't canon; nor written by Toriyama) and I'm not expecting Vejito and even if so, he's not gonna accomplish anything.

[Boyiee]

So Vegito only lasts a few minutes because whatever but Kefla has no time limit with a Brolly character...

[Tyrath]

That just means Vegito has way more power than her duh

[Cream Soda]

That just means Vegito has way more power than her duh

Pretty much this. Not to mention she's still in base. She's nowhere near as strong as Vejito blue.

That said, she's going to follow the fusion character trope and defuse prior to the time limit (or may actually just straight up get knocked off). I don't expect her knocking any major players off, but only minor characters (if that)

[Tymon]

Spoiler: show

Doubt it tbh. Toriyama actually even had no intentions of Vejito coming back. He said it was Toyotaro's (Guy who does the manga) idea to bring him back. Fan service and shit, which is probably why the fusion didn't last long enough for him to do anything worth a fuck.

Compounding w/ the fact that a fused character has never won anything (either fusion ends or w/e; minus movie 12, which isn't canon; nor written by Toriyama) and I'm not expecting Vejito and even if so, he's not gonna accomplish anything.

Agree that it probably won't happen, but you're actually partially incorrect about the Toriyama statement.

In fact neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro had Vegito in their drafts. Toei top dogs figured that reinserting Vegito would sell more merchandise (correct) so they added him to the script in the anime. Toyotaro then decided to add him to the manga to appease the fans, because he got a lot of feedback from people looking forward to seeing him in the manga.

Technically Vegito was never supposed to appear again, period.

In a way this actually makes it even more likely for him to appear (though still unlikely overall) because he was purely inserted to sell toys. And boy Jesus does he sell toys, so never count that out. I'm pretty sure if Toei saw a market for Ultra Instinct Vegito figmas that he would show up eventually.

This actually goes a little further with comments by Toei executives in Mexico a few weeks ago at a convention. They basically said something along the lines of "the ratings don't matter, the only thing that matters to us is the merchandise sales" and explained that Kai got canned because it didn't sell any merchandise. Super is selling merchandise like crazy already. Been to the toy store recently? There's Super action figures in Toys R Us, Walmart, etc. First time I've seen Dragon Ball toys in any store other than niche anime shops in at least a decade. That's why Super ain't getting cancelled any time soon.

[Cream Soda]

In fact neither Toriyama nor Toyotaro had Vegito in their drafts. Toei top dogs figured that reinserting Vegito would sell more merchandise (correct) so they added him to the script in the anime. Toyotaro then decided to add him to the manga to appease the fans, because he got a lot of feedback from people looking forward to seeing him in the manga.

I mean there was an interview released less than a week ago with Toyotaro and Toriyama

Toriyama got the inspiration for Goku Black from "copies of the hero" characters such as Fake Ultra Man, Fake Kamen Rider, and...Kamen Rider Black.

Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse in Toriyama's original draft. Toyotaro says that to meet "fan expectations", it was therefore necessary to create a situation where they had no choice but to fuse, since their personalities would probably prevent them from ever fusing again after the Buu arc. Toriyama says this was a good idea.

As part of the above, Toyotaro says that "Zamasu" wasn't all that strong in Toriyama's original draft; though immortal, two Super Saiyan Blues could handle him (this might be the part Toyotaro mentioned on Twitter is supposed to say "Merged Zamasu")

Interview in japanese if you can read that

https://twitter.com/YonkouProd/statu...13742560051200

The manga only releases 1 chapter a month, but it Toyotaro said he was ahead of the anime (which would make sense since they used mainly manga pages for the ToP preview video)

[Ohemgee]

Thoughts on where we're at and what to expect beyond 118..

109-114 - is it just me or has the animation seriously took an awesome upturn? 109 and 110 are episodes I've rewatched just for the sake of choreography, the music, and Goku's transformation.

115 & Potara

Spoiler: show

I get they allowed Master Roshi to use his flask, but shouldn't we get confirmation next episode on the rules of fusion? The Grand Priest is pretty open to exploits and we're guaranteed to see this through for the next 2-3 episodes. Kefla will probably defuse shortly after the Goku instinct fight.

116: - but does he stay like this?

117:

Spoiler: show

I really hope U2 is eliminated. DBS is meant to sell new toys and characters in video games, Ribrienne has run her course. Filler episode, but I know they're going to drop lore nuggets to set up the next episode

118:

Spoiler: show

Great. But the word disappear doesn't necessarily mean erased - but I'm leaning on erased. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if either Universe 2 or is eliminated via the previous episode or the least involved (3&4) are on the chopping block. I'm expecting Frieza to get bored and start fucking everyone up.

Beyond 118 and the phrase "The time of Gods has come to an end", are we eventually going to end episodes premiering in 2017? At what point does Goku's gi is removed and what triggered him to do that? Episode 116?

[Tymon]

"The time of Gods has come to an end" is just what the Grand Priest says before he unveils his evil plan.

[Dantrag]

The ONLY animation issue I had last episode was when Goku was in red and controlling his ki blast. The only thing moving was his hand/wrist. And it looked weird.