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    Yoshida/Hino Full Interview Translation from Dengeki Playstation

    Here’s a full translation of the interview with Akihiro Hino of Level-5 and Naoki Yoshida discussing Ni No Kuni II, Final Fantasy XIV, and some views on game design and game development. Let me know if anything seems unclear and I can recheck the translation. The original interview appeared in Dengeki Playstation volume 659, a Japanese print magazine.

    The two of you are privately good friends, but have you been keeping in touch lately?

    Yoshida: I haven't seen much of him lately. I think the last time I saw him was when we had dinner in Fukuoka?

    Hino: Maybe at events, but it's been quite a while since we've met each other on personal time.

    Yoshida: I didn't get to the New Year's Party, but Hino's been at a variety of events recently.

    Hino: Yeah, we're all so busy in this industry that I thought it would be good to meet up.

    When you get a chance to have dinner together, what kinds of things do you talk about?

    Hino: Probably still games (laughs).

    Yoshida: Really, though, we mostly talk about games. The conversation will go like "what interesting things are you working on?" or "how did that go?" and "why did you do that?"

    Hino: FFXIV continues to introduce more and more new systems. Each time, I like to talk about what went wrong from the user's perspective (laughs).

    Yoshida: Level-5 is running a number of different projects including crossmedia work. Amazingly, Hino is involved in all of them. He's not only working as the producer, but he's also working on the projects themselves like on developing the scenario, so I'm really just wondering how he pulls it off.

    On Ni No Kuni II as well, you worked as both the general director as well as having involvement in the scenario, but what kinds of things did you work on specifically?

    Hino: I wrote for the main scenario and I judged the systems that the planners came up with. Sometimes I proposed suggestions for systems myself. However, honestly, the development of Ni No Kuni II was difficult. I think it came out quite well in the end, but it felt like a lot of trial and error along the way. In that sense, it was a lot of work for me. It was a huge project, and when I was informed that things were running late, enough time had passed that we were already in a position that we couldn't work around it. Of course, there are tons of moving parts that could cause it, but since schedule management was left to me this time, it was very challenging.

    Were you tasked to provide more support than usual this time?

    Hino: No, I always like to put my two cents in, but I enjoy it. You know, like "well, that's good... but can you do something like this?" But this time was a bit different.

    Yoshida: What was the most difficult part?

    Hino: The most difficult... well, I think it's that we're not really accustomed to handling the huge titles. At Square Enix, when you need to perform rework in development, it's taken for granted that the work will move through the organization. However, at Level-5, the structure for rework is weak, so the flow of information would get stuck. Even though we had decided to rework something, it wouldn't get done.

    That's a bit surprising to me as I had imagined that you only dealt with the bigger items, like the crossmedia effort. Does the feeling of production differ with different methods?

    Hino: It's totally different. Sometimes I'd like to do what Yoshida does. With Level-5, we have an apparent problem that we need to work on to streamline big projects. For the crossmedia effort, rather than looking at individual projects, I'm working on building relationships with various companies like anime companies and toy companies.

    On that note, Yoshida, it's been five years since A Realm Reborn, and if you include the development period as well, it's really been a while since you took over the development team of FFXIV. What's your take on that?

    Yoshida: It's not good to develop games from just one angle, you need to take a view from all directions. You have a program organized to keep things moving on track, but there are still many things that can go awry. I think the staff of Level-5 totally respect Hino's opinions, but it may be difficult for them to judge for themselves whether something is Hino's true intent or if it's more someone's idea of what Hino would want. As your direction gets cascaded down to lower levels in the organization, it gets lost little by little, which can be tough to manage.

    Hino: Of course, it might be different if the specifications are perfect, but when we meet with the core project team, we'll have a whiteboard to record our intent. However, it's difficult to get that message out to the team on a large project.

    Yoshida: The trick to doing that well is to come up with a set of core values and choosing people you trust to focus on leading specific elements. Fortunately, there are a lot of staff like that with FFXIV. The leads can then convey the message and instruct their team "it's not about doing everything Yoshida says, he's not so particular about the details, so let's decide about this on our own."

    Hino: Well, it was good in that we had everyone working together on the last corrections to end up with a good product.

    During the flow of game production, in addition to developing the game you [Yoshida] also regularly conduct the live producer letters and other things to actively communicate with users. Do you take back any ideas for game development from these interactions with users?

    Yoshida: In the case of MMORPGs, we have to be constantly changing the service. Although the developers have some time to play ourselves, there are many players with longer playtime than us. It's important to us to gauge how players are feeling, and what they are thinking about things that can be made more convenient or how content can be made more fun.

    Hino: I'm actually a bit jealous of Yoshida when I watch the producer letters (laughs). Being able to engage in those sessions with users is one of the benefits to making large-scale games. Actually seeing the faces of the people you entertain is a real pleasure for those of us who make games. I'm always thinking "isn't this nice" when I watch it (laughs).

    Yoshida: Certainly, we do have fun and it's great for development. When we listen to players' opinions and get good results in development, it's even more of a pleasure, so it keeps us at our best.

    Hino: With the users happy, it motivates you to keep going, and it's overall a great feeling. From a player's perspective, it really does come across that the development team enjoys making the game. I think one of the big points in game development is that it's important to have fun making them.

    Yoshida: Also, there are different points of view. Hino is working on projects like Yo-kai Watch that have expanded across various types of media. On the other hand, I am concentrating on just one project that involves multiple development aspects. Since Hino is looking at projects as integrated works from a bird's eye view, I think there's a difference.

    Hino: Of course, different things will be enjoyable for different jobs. However, when you're creating something, there's nothing better than feeling the enjoyment of the users. That's where I'm a bit jealous. I'm doing my best for our distribution, but I'm not quite at Yoshida's level (laughs).

    I think the charm of an RPG is that it allows you to experience an interactive story, but in this era of games, it's becoming the norm that rich stories are developed not only in RPGs, but in other genres like action games and FPS. What do the two of you think about the unique charm that remains special to RPGs?

    Hino: Fundamentally, it's about enjoying another world freely, doing things which are impossible to do in reality. I like the idea of having virtual experiences that differ from the real world.

    Yoshida: You can enjoy stories by just reading books. Compared to the interval in which major RPGs come out, a hit writer can get works out faster. However, with the epic, so-called triple-A RPGs, there's an incredible visual component and a sense of immersion in the world. Episodes are drawn out for the characters. You can experience the world by controlling the characters. You'll develop your characters, save up money to buy weapons, and experience meetings and partings. Instead of just passively observing the story, you can play an active part and be impacted much more. Only RPGs offer an experience that you can directly feel. The meaning behind "role playing" is really the biggest part. In my case, with FFXIV, I thought it would be best to be able to provide the type of experience that a stand-alone work could provide, which is why I've placed a major emphasis on the story side.

    There's a considerable amount of lore built into the story of FFXIV. I heard that during development for Stormblood, Banri Oda and Natsuko Ishikawa opened up a "story camp."

    Yoshida: A story-driven MMORPG is very rare for the genre. However, as FFXIV is one of the numbered Final Fantasy titles, there are many people who would naturally expect a full story. Therefore, unless you're thinking "the story was entertaining" as the credits roll, we haven't done our job. Because of that, FFXIV takes away some of the freedoms unique to MMORPGs until the credits roll. This is one aspect that's unique to the game. For those who aren't familiar with MMORPGs, making them easy to get into is important, so I think this was the right decision for a Final Fantasy numbered title.

    In the past, the command-based RPGs had felt more akin to adventure games, but recently things have become more action-oriented. In Ni No Kuni II, the battles are totally active.

    Hino: In the first Ni No Kuni, battles were menu-based, but now they are action-oriented. Even from foreign media, we frequently got the question "why did you change it?" However, it seems that it was positively received. The reason for the change was the different experience in that you feel more unified with the character when pressing a button activates a technique instead of entering a command. In either case, with most mainstream RPGs today, characters besides the one you're controlling fight with auto-battle. With that, you're more able to enjoy the atmosphere of the battle. Another recent trend is the emphasis on power and experience instead of a fine-tuned strategy. I also felt that it was fun, so we changed the system to make the battles feel more real compared with inputting menu commands.

    With FFXIV as well, as compared to old MMOs, there are many more action elements.

    Hino: That's for sure.

    Yoshida: In RPGs, I think it's better to not create a barrier to actions by using menus. Back in the day with our generation, we didn't have a choice besides using commands to fight. This grew out of tabletop RPGs. But today's kids are not used to that. For example, if you hand a controller to a child who has no RPG experience and you tell them "fight that enemy," they'll probably mess around with the character for a second, and then walk towards the enemy and push a button to try to hit it. In simple terms, I think with the advances in technology, it's now possible to give a straightforward expression of attacking without having a command wedged in between.

    In a way, it feels like things are moving towards becoming genre-less. We now have RPGs packed with action elements, and action games packed with rich stories.

    Yoshida: Monster Hunter is a good example. From people who grew up playing tabletop games one step at a time, getting used to the fast pace of Monster Hunter and being able to see everything with the camera can be very difficult. However, younger players can adapt and play the game without issue. That's because it's a straight action game. Get close to the monster and hit it, pay attention and dodge. As the ages of users become more and more mixed, there's not much sense in classifications like "action RPG" anymore.

    Hino: In Japan, RPGs without the word "action" tend to beg the question "do you have to select commands?," but there aren't classifications like that overseas. Even today, command-based RPGs tend to be associated with Japan's culture. It's not a love it or hate it story, though, as a lot of interesting work has come out of it like Dragon Quest.

    Talking a bit about FFXIV, the "Forbidden Land Eureka" was implemented which added a different flavor from before. It was a blend of traditional MMO elements with modern elements, can you give us an idea behind the implementation of this content?

    Yoshida: I had hoped that it would go over well, but we are performing trial and error in FFXIV. It's like "laboratory" content. The Sea of Clouds Diadem exploration was part of that. Hino said earlier that you need "pretty butterfly" elements to keep going long term. We're making things at a very fast pace. Because of real life changes the percentage of players that will stay with the service for 10 years or more isn't very high. Keeping in mind that the player turnover is about a year and a half to three years, we need to continue changing enough to satisfy those who are getting started, otherwise it will become a barrier to new players and the current model will fade away.

    As a MMORPG, there's always a sense that eventually it's going to end. So even if a project fails once, we need to keep challenging ourselves while maintaining the stability. This is true for both the players and our development team. If the nature of the game is "well, the number of people playing the game is falling anyway so we're going to switch to microtransactions because the people who really enjoy it will stick around anyway," that will only accelerate the problem.

    That said, some day you will get tired of it. If we're getting bored in development, we plan challenges like this one. The Forbidden Land Eureka is literally like a "forbidden land" for FFXIV. Like a newly started first generation MMORPG, it's all about hunting monsters and leveling up.

    Hino: After hearing you say that, I'll have to check it out!

    Yoshida: Things may happen there that we haven't seen since MMORPGs from a long time ago. Someone might be running along with a train of monsters and as a healer you might think you should help and heal them... then all the monsters are coming your way and your whole party is incapacitated and levels down. You might think "why would you bring that kind of craziness into this era?" But that's the reason we built it only into one piece of content. Since it's not affecting the whole game, it allows us to create challenges like this.

    Hino: I think that's good. With the cycle of high difficulty content, it's often said that people leave and new users come in. Having new content like this is a challenge to see whether players can accept new things in the middle of that.

    Yoshida: I don't think there's any content that everyone plays in a MMORPG. Looking at the data, even the main scenario isn't completed by 100%. Some people just enjoy taking pictures of the world's scenery. When we think about this, "Forbidden Land Eureka" is just one new play element, like a new type of roller coaster that may give you a bit of a thrill. I think there will be some people for whom this content doesn't fit.

    Hino: You think it's about the scale of a roller coaster? I thought it was a bit bigger than that....

    Yoshida: It will continue to expand. As I said earlier, we just launched the content. New play elements will be added to the leveling foundation after the first "Anemos" version. If we added all that from the beginning, it would just look like FFXIV. We didn't want that, we want to test the boundaries.

    In a system like that, there should be a lot more communication among users. Engaging in communication like that might make the content more fun than ever before.

    Yoshida: I agree. Now that people are accustomed to the convenient ways to recruit parties, I want to pay attention to how they communicate.

    Hino: MMOs are exciting when there are elements you don't understand. You'll have conversations like "what does this do?" So the more things are figured out, the less conversation there tends to be. If there are a lot of hidden elements to the content, conversation should increase a lot.

    Changing the topic a bit... it takes a huge amount of time and effort to develop a world, and with those limitations you have to draw the line somewhere. What did you emphasize when creating the world in Ni No Kuni II?

    Hino: We created a world view with Studio Ghibli in Ni No Kuni. Continuing on from the previous work, Yoshiyuki Momose from Studio Ghibli and Joe Hisaishi participated in the production to give an air of familiarity. From there, I wanted to place an emphasis on creating a feeling of joy when exploring freely, and whether or not you feel that, that you'd want to live in the world of Ni No Kuni II even once the quest has been cleared. So as we were developing the artwork, we made sure to include a feeling of lightness, and variety from one city to the next to keep things from getting boring.

    Indeed, it does feel like it has continuity from Studio Ghibli with the previous work but also has its own distinctive world view.

    Hino: That's right, that was a conscious decision.

    Yoshida: There's not so much opportunity to play games of this size from Japan. I hope there are more games with wide appeal like Hino's.

    Hino: Instead of pure RPGs, today's mainstream games like Monster Hunter World and FFXIV are popular games that many people enjoy. If you're developing a single-player game and it's not on the scale of something like "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim" or "Origins," it's hard to advertise it as a "true RPG" and it may not be accepted as a single-player game.

    When I started playing Ni No Kuni II, the first thing I felt was that it was like an old-fashioned RPG, and I think there are many others who felt the same. Yoshida has said before that having traditional large-scale RPGs like this has been on a downward trend.

    Hino: I'm happy you felt that way. I wondered how it would go over while it was being made. The number of million-sellers is growing overseas, but there are a lot of problems with advertising in Japan. A game like Monster Hunter World is very easy to understand...a bunch of players get together to defeat big enemies. On the flipside, there aren't many people who still place an emphasis on single player gameplay, so I feel it's more difficult to advertise single player games. We may be entering a time where games need to have other points of appeal.

    Yoshida: It's become a time where getting the game into players' hands and making the game interesting are no longer equal. It's a sad situation to be in when you're thinking more about plastering ads on social networks than competing with your content because you just want to get the game out there. This isn't just about ads themselves, but everyone knows that ads can contain lies, so if you set aside the ads and the voices of doubt you can instead try to focus on creating interest to get the game into players' hands. Then, whether it's interesting or not would come first.

    The most important barrier to break is to get the game into players' hands. You can look at the schedule and the money, it's a tremendous cost, but there's now also a lot of effort involved with the passion and technology to release a game. Among those players who experienced the first game, it developed a very high reputation abroad, so what do you think was the reason for that?

    Hino: Certainly it had a lot of impact outside of Japan, so it sold a tremendous number. I was surprised myself with all the awards that we received. I had the feeling like "huh??" (laughs) One thing I'm thinking is that it was like a new world view for people abroad. Thinking of works from overseas, most of them have protagonists that range in age from young adults to middle-aged, but only a few RPGs have boy heroes. In addition to that scarcity, from there a drama also develops with pure interactions with other characters from a boy's perspective. I think it was also important that Studio Ghibli played a part in the development. I think the way the story handles certain events gives it a different dimension from other works from overseas. It left an impression with the beautiful Japanese animation from Studio Ghibli which was reinforced by Joe Hisaishi's score.

    So you're saying that uniqueness of something that could only be made in Japan is what made it a hit overseas.

    Hino: That's right. On a global level, I think it makes sense that you'll have the most familiarity with works from your own country. But, as I often work abroad, I also understand that there's a feeling among players who love to get a global perspective and play games from all over the world. In the past, there used to be a game series called Prince of Persia. Until I played that, I had thought the heroes in Dragon Quest were the best, but when I saw the artwork for that, it felt like something totally different from what we had in Japan. It made me think, "I would really like to see more of what's out there." I felt really drawn to that. In the same way, Ni No Kuni has a distinctively Japanese feel, but also a sense of unity and personality that drew people in.

    Yoshida: By the way, one thing that has bothered me about Ni No Kuni II, why is the subtitle in English? "Revenant" isn't a familiar word to Japanese people. Although there may be people who have seen the word because a movie with the same name came out not long ago.

    Hino: That was done for overseas. At first, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to have it separate for the Japanese version. We were fully behind the Japanese version as well, we went all out with the casting (laughs). But I think making a product for those who told us they liked it by giving us money is the basis of entertainment. Ni No Kuni was accepted by people overseas and received a lot of awards, so we wanted to target that audience. Because of that, we made the title English and had the romaji subtitle.

    Yoshida: I see.

    Hino: Certainly the word "revenant" has negative connotation, and it was controversial among the development team saying it might not match the content of the work very well.

    Yoshida: The result probably came out of thinking about the people who would be out purchasing the game.

    Hino: It isn't as interesting just to say positive things, so we were thinking of titles that talked about how the kingdom was in a crisis and had to be saved.

    So what's the core part of the story, the part you wanted to most portray?

    Hino: The theme of the work is leading people. You can lead the advance of soldiers in battle, or scout people you meet during your adventure for new citizens. You can also gather people during the hack and slash portions of the game. Rather than nurturing individuals, the idea is that you're developing a country. That's the theme of the story, and also the theme of the systems.

    You can also collect higgledies.

    Hino: That also got a very good evaluation from our own internal check team. We didn't really convince them until a few months ago, but the quality really increased from there. It was in good shape by the end. We were able to confidently deliver the version that was finally released.

    Yoshida, I think you still haven't tried it out, but how was it to see the video previews that have been published so far? [[this interview was done before the release of Ni No Kuni II]]

    Yoshida: I've been impressed with it at overseas events, and Ni No Kuni II really does look different on the screen. I saw it for the first time with the local staff while we were live streaming, and it gathered some attention. As Hino said, the world really did stand out, just looking at one location I could still sense that. One of the important parts of epic RPGs that has continued through time is that the world really pulls you in, and I knew Hino was serious about that. When I heard that the release of Ni No Kuni II was delayed, I knew that it had to be for quality reasons and that's something that comes along with the territory and probably couldn't be helped. I thought that maybe once Hino got involved he found things he wanted to change that took time to fix. I'm sure everyone on the staff felt this way, but I also saw a lot of complaining among Japanese players who were looking forward to it but disappointed with the delay, although it should have been expected (laughs). It's rare that a major domestically produced RPG sails smoothly to a worldwide release. On top of that, this isn't a Final Fantasy, or a Dragon Quest, or a Kingdom Hearts. It's a game that only Hino could really deliver, so I hope everyone checks it out.

    Hino: I think by the time it was completed it came out really well.

    Yoshida: As an example, if we decided today, let's make "Ni No Kuni III", if we wanted it to exceed this quality, it would probably take at least three years.

    Hino: Yeah, it would take about that long.

    Yoshida: Thinking about that, it means that this may be one of the last domestically produced RPGs that we see during this home console generation.

    That's true. I hope fans of Japanese games try this out because you don't see many games like this today.

    Yoshida: For sure, I think this is something that you can look at and say it looks awesome. People may agree or disagree on the greatness of the game, but I think if you check it out it will become clear.

    Hino: We've also got new elements in the system for users and I want people to experience it. The emphasis in the story is that many people will come to your side, and we want you to feel it as part of the system as the number of your allies increases.


    This year will be the 20th anniversary since Level-5 was founded. How do you look back upon those 20 years?

    Hino: How do I look back on 20 years.... I think we've always strived to do our best all along. It feels like I just registered the company recently...it's been really fun.

    One thing on that note... at the end of last year, you made a statement that your 20th anniversary commemorative work would be an online game?

    Hino: I might have let my mouth run away there (laughs). Well, I've also been talking to Yoshida about that, so I'd like to create some work in that direction.

    I'd be very interested to see what kind of online game you'd make.

    Hino: Like our conversation earlier about "what is an RPG?," I think there's also a discussion about "what is an MMO?" I don't really care about defining it as MMO or MO, or whether there are online elements or it's single player. I would like to look into the technology to develop the system I want to make and develop it into a unique work.

    Yeah, it's definitely been more ambiguous defining what is an online game in recent years. There aren't many big games this era that come out without having at least some online elements."

    Hino: The phrase "online game" itself is already antiquated, isn't it?

    Along those lines, it seems like "FFXIV" isn't really bound by the MMO form anymore.

    Yoshida: I'm not really conscious of it, that classification often comes from the media. If anything, I think of it as an RPG that many people can play together.

    There are also many asynchronous online games.

    Hino: I think "asynchronous online" is a key phrase that will be the next major trend.

    Yoshida, you mentioned before that the Forbidden Land Eureka was like a new trial piece of content. Do you have plans for other such trials for FFXIV in the future?

    Yoshida: We're working on a powered up version of existing content, as well as some other things which players might react to like "you were working on that?!" but I don't want to ruin the surprise.

    Hino: Oh! You want to work on other projects, don't you? Are you working on the next MMO? (laughs)

    Yoshida: Should I say it clearly? I'm not making that!! If you want to win today, you have to put all your effort into one thing. There's no point in making two. Otherwise with the huge MMORPG market it you wouldn't be able to win. We're all competing for the limited time that gamers have, so we can't win unless we stay focused. By working on another one, FFXIV would then become a competitor and it wouldn't be efficient at all.

    Hino: Yeah, I was thinking that it would also be a MMORPG, but listening to what Yoshida said convinced me. It's easy for me to open my mouth and say to make an online game, but you can't actually do that without dedicating staff to it. With the company focused on a single effort, you can pour all your staff into that.

    It would be a pretty challenging project.

    Hino: If Yoshida can't do it, I certainly couldn't (laughs).

    So, to conclude, can you give a message about each other's work?

    Hino: I built a new PC recently and I'm still hoping for FFXIV-2. Of course I'm also looking forward to the next expansion, but I like the idea of entering a totally new place that I've never seen before where everything is fresh. I want that newness of "how far does this field go??" I think Square Enix and Yoshida can make that happen, so please do your best!

    Yoshida: I would do it if I could have another one of me.... In terms of traditional Japanese RPGs, Ni No Kuni II may be the last one of this generation. Because of that, as I told Hino during development, I would like to see it reach as many people as possible. It would be a waste if it didn't. I know how difficult it can be to make such a large scale game in Japan, so I definitely want to try it out myself. I'm looking forward to the launch!

  2. #2
    Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
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    Thanks for the translation Slycer!

    I hadn't really thought about next gen since I feel like it was just yesterday that I picked up my PS4 Pro...... I'm not fucking ready to drop a ton of money on a PS5.

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    From a marketing standpoint after seeing how well the consumer is fine with purchasing mid cycle hardware refreshes for better experiences. It honestly makes more sense for them to continue to bump up the hardware slightly and keep the platform the way it is.

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    Great job, Slycer.

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