Batwoman (CW) - Season 2 January 17, 2021

[Zetanio]

Any news on which actress will play the character?

Dude you fucking suck at posting.

[Zetanio]

Representation in comics isn't about change because of the matriarchal conspiracy, it's because comics are better when they are true to life (beyond the necessary suspension of disbelief regarding the superhero vigilantism). Having a cast of characters that better represent the composition of society (i.e. not everyone being white, not everyone being straight, the women with their own story arcs) makes storylines more compelling and helps them resonate better with readers.

I agree. I think the best comics end up being those that are compelling at a base level. It also isn't a conspiracy that these broader appeal comics sell REALLY well because they are very very well done.

Gred, that might the best post of yours that I've read.

[Gredival]

Say what you will about the affirmative Avengers but Jane Foster and Riri Williams made excellent characters in their roles while they lasted. Amadeus Cho and Sam Wilson, eh.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I think in general the comics industry needs to invest more in the creation of heroes with minority origins rather than just trying to hot-swap parts of characters' identities. In a way it's symbolic of continuing failure by the industry if the solution to diversity isn't to create a more realistic setting filled with more persons of color and non-males but to just jam a label onto an existing product and call it a day (for example, increasing diversity in The Flash and Teen Titans by making Iris, Wally, and Starfire black)

To its credit Marvel tried a different approach by looking at its characters as not about certain people but about ideals -- that what mattered was the mask and what it stood for. However the reason I think the Affirmative Action Avengers line-up failed to succeed, despite having quite a few great stories, was that fans weren't fans of titles, they were fans of characters. People didn't want to read about Falcon-Cap because their loyalty wasn't to Captain America the "mantle" it was to Steve Rogers. So when Marvel basically replaces every founding member of the Avengers with new versions of the characters the readership will decline because this wasn't the product they are attached to.

Marvel did a great job with some of the new characters. Kamala Khan and Kate Bishop were great and the Thor-ized Jane Foster probably had a better run as Thor than Odinson did. However I think they are held back by the fact they have been given iconic code-names/identities as a cheap way to harvest old-readership into an essentially new title. Trying to just replace the old versions of characters with a hip new "diverse" upgrade, when there is loyalty to those characters and the source versions of them, is always going to fall flat.

Instead, focusing on propping these characters up on their own would have been a better approach. Or put them in alternate universes, like Miles Morales. You can use titles like the Avengers to better highlight heroes of color as well. For example, if you want diversity on the Avengers then Blue Marvel should take up the bruiser slot of the Avengers for a run instead of Thor.

[Zealot]

Blue Marvel hasn't been around since Secret Wars and now that the Sentry is back I really hope we see him again, too. I'd love to find out who wins in that fight.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[NynJa]

We're at the point now where characters in starring roles being something besides a straight, white, male isn't an automatic dead on arrival.

Tell that to the human torch.

Oh wait, that was just a bunch of angry hetersexual white males who were triggered at Johnny Storm undergoing a race change, and their triggering was a blip on the radar because Fantastic Four was a box office success.

[Gredival]

Tell that to the human torch.

Oh wait, that was just a bunch of angry hetersexual white males who were triggered at Johnny Storm undergoing a race change, and their triggering was a blip on the radar because Fantastic Four was a box office success.

1. The idea that casting Michael B. Jordan was the sole, or even primary, cause of F4ntastic bombing.

2. Reducing your entire defense of stories centering around straight white males to "Well that's what's commercially successful."

3. Black Panther.

4. Literally right above your post

I think in general the comics industry needs to invest more in the creation of heroes with minority origins rather than just trying to hot-swap parts of characters' identities. In a way it's symbolic of continuing failure by the industry if the solution to diversity isn't to create a more realistic setting filled with more persons of color and non-males but to just jam a label onto an existing product and call it a day

[dasva]

Nothing can save a Fox made Fantastic 4

[Zealot]

The perfect Fantastic Four movie is so easy to make.

Have their origin. Don't do any other dimension stuff, use Reed Richards trying to revolutionize private space travel. Cosmic rays, boom.
Mole Man, FF save NYC from giant monsters.
Doom in the extra credits scene.

[NynJa]

1. The idea that casting Michael B. Jordan was the sole, or even primary, cause of F4ntastic bombing.

2. Reducing your entire defense of stories centering around straight white males to "Well that's what's commercially successful."

3. Black Panther.

4. Literally right above your post

Black panther was obviously a success because hollywood finally gave a black dude a headlining role in a superhero film.

[TummieGaruda]

Black panther was obviously a success because hollywood finally gave a black dude a headlining role in a superhero film.

Meteor Man would like to have a word with you

Spoiler: show

The movie wasn't a success but still...

[dasva]

I think you mean Blade... man I miss Wesley Snipes

[Zealot]

People also forget that Blade invented bullet time years before The Matrix.

[Kalmado]

I think you mean Blade... man I miss Wesley Snipes

That's Wesley Pipes to you!

[Gredival]

Black panther was obviously a success because hollywood finally gave a black dude a headlining role in a superhero film.

No nitwit. I said that we're at the point where narratives about non-"straight, white, males" can be successful. Then you argued F4ntastic was a box office bomb. Black Panther would thus be a counter-point of one successful narrative of the type I'm describing, fulfilling the only criteria you argued for initially: box office success.

Moreover the fact that issues of Africa and the experiences of African slaves descendants were front and center in Black Panther demonstrate that the cultural narrative was crucial to the movie. Killmonger's entire schtick is reversing the effects of slavery.

[NynJa]

Meteor Man would like to have a word with you

Spoiler: show

The movie wasn't a success but still...

I was going for Blade. All things considered, it did become a trilogy (even of the latter two werent that good). Meteor Man was considered too.

[NynJa]

No nitwit. I said that we're at the point where narratives about non-"straight, white, males" can be successful. Then you argued F4ntastic was a box office bomb. Black Panther would thus be a counter-point of one successful narrative of the type I'm describing, fulfilling the only criteria you argued for initially: box office success.

Moreover the fact that issues of Africa and the experiences of African slaves descendants were front and center in Black Panther demonstrate that the cultural narrative was crucial to the movie. Killmonger's entire schtick is reversing the effects of slavery.

Black Panther didnt trans-race a character from the comics the way Fantastic Four did with the human torch. Nor (afaik) did it deviate from the source.

[Gredival]

Holy shit, again, that wasn't the argument.

You objected to this:

We're at the point now where characters in starring roles being something besides a straight, white, male isn't an automatic dead on arrival.

With this:

Tell that to the human torch.

Oh wait, that was just a bunch of angry hetersexual white males who were triggered at Johnny Storm undergoing a race change, and their triggering was a blip on the radar because Fantastic Four was a box office success.

In that post you're asserting that these narratives (i.e. characters besides straight white males) do in fact fail. F4ntastic bombing is proof it's not just angry heterosexual white males who don't like this crap.

Then I responded with three points:

1. The idea that casting Michael B. Jordan was the sole, or even primary, cause of F4ntastic bombing.

2. Reducing your entire defense of stories centering around straight white males to "Well that's what's commercially successful."

3. Black Panther.

First, that casting Michael B. Jordan was nowhere close to the sole, or even primary, cause of F4ntastic bombing. In other words, you're assuming causality that does not exist.

Second, that you're conceding that in your opinion it would be fine to continue to have nothing but stories centering around straight white males so long as it's commercially successful. In other words, representation doesn't matter companies should only make what sells.

Third, Black Panther's success proves that these media about characters other than straight white males can be successful. And, because you've previously made the argument that the only thing that matter is what sells, that means it would be fine to erase the representation of straight white males as long as that's what sells.

Now I expect you're going to back pedal and say something about how the only thing you're talking about is how we should be faithful to source material and not race-change based off you saying this:

Black Panther didnt trans-race a character from the comics the way Fantastic Four did with the human torch. Nor (afaik) did it deviate from the source.

However that HAS NOTHING to do with Batwoman since there's no race-change and because she's gay in the comics too.

Also your initial complaint...

Seriously how is that at all relevant to being a super hero?

...is you griping about the fact that being gay isn't related to being a super hero.

So it was never about fidelity to source material, it's you just finding it annoying that there's stories about characters who aren't straight.

[NynJa]

[grantlogan]

Say what you will about the affirmative Avengers but Jane Foster and Riri Williams made excellent characters in their roles while they lasted. Amadeus Cho and Sam Wilson, eh.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Riri was terrible. TERRIBLE

[dasva]

Riri was terrible. TERRIBLE

I'd say more highly mediocre and barely a temp stand in