Star Trek: Picard (CBS:AA/P+) - Season 2 2022

[kuronosan]

Wow that's one heck of a throwback.

[Virg]

As a long time watcher and somebody who is usually 95% in agreement with RLMs takes on pretty much everything, I heavily disagree with a lot they´re saying in here, especially with the "Federation is portrayed as a bunch of xenophobe Nazis" take. Federation´s management level has always been portrayed as willing to do a LOT of shady shit, from initially accepting to exploit Android´s and Hologramms as slaves more or less (as portrayed in Measures of a Man in TNG and Author, Author in VOY) to working together with Section 31 to draw the Romulan´s into the Dominion War, assassinating a Romulan Embassador for the same purpose (though that one is kind of on Garrack but Sisko knew very well what was going to happen and his inital plan wasn´t any less shady), to turning a blind eye on Section 31 essentially using Odo as a living bio weapon to commit genocide wiping the Founders out, to relocating a whole species to exploit their resources for the benefits of the Federation (Insurecction). Hell 90% of the Admirals of SF are portrayed as evil bastards with no concious whatsoever it´s kind of a running gag in the show lol. So yeah SF was never as noble as Rich and Mike make them out to be here. Also disagree with a lot they´re saying about Picard´s relationship with Data and the reasons why he wants to do everything in his power to protect Dahj and to a greater extent all "synths". It´s clear that he feels tremendous guilt about Data sacrificing his life to save him from Shinzon who he failed to "save" or "turn back to the good side". To me their take feels like they went in way too biased, which is a shame and rarely ever happens. There´s a ton more I could say here but I don´t wanna write essays here. We all know they´ll keep watching and I´ll wait until their mid-season review to see if STP managed to win them over by then.

[kuronosan]

Starfleet has always been shady af. Picard and Janeway were always the atypical captains that went against the grain.

[Karbuncle]

I want to lead with this: - I'm not telling you what to enjoy, or even that the show is bad. I'm not arguing the show is trash, or dog shit, or anything like that. I'm just here to have a very nerdy discussion about the Politics of Star Trek.

A few Starfleet Admirals doing bad things sometimes is really quite different than having the implication that Media propaganda machines still operate in full swing even going so far as to paint saving a race from near extinction as a bad thing because they were our enemies at one point. I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I don't care that politics are being pushed anymore than I care what politics are being pushed, its how they're being pushed thats tacky and forced. Star Trek has always been political as with much of our lives, but amidst all of that still exists the idea that The Federation has more or less evolved beyond the prejudices of today... a fact that is repeated many times over Star Treks long history... well, at least before Roddenberry died.

Plus, Starfleet is NOT The Federation. Starfleet is to earth what the Klingon Defense Force is to Kronos. The Federation is a part of a much larger collaboration of planets, not just Earth. I don't think Vulcan would have appreciated Starfleet just letting the Romulans die and tossing the finger to them. Starfleet answers to the Federation as does anyone, the Federation is a much larger United Nations type deal. The lady interviewing Picard is something you'd expect to hear from a Klingon, or a Cardassian, within the lore of Star Trek... but not a Human, they were always painted as the moral foothold of the universe, with Vulcan really high up there too.

So yes, there's still seeds of corruption, theres still shady stuff, that exact topic has been covered in many Star Trek episodes, from fighting for Data's right to be labeled a sentient being, to "The Drumhead" episode, and many more which would take too long to list... but those things have always been painted as disgusting, the outlier, immoral, etc, a throwback to a worse time in human history, the seeds of evil still exist in humans, its not a Utopia, its a realistic Utopia... with this situation, while we the audience are suppose to despise it, in the reality of the world it exists in, it paints the implication she's asking the question people want asked or she's trying to stir a pot, either way, personally i think that bends over and fucks The Federation's ideals as a whole and paints Earth as being just as political and divisive as it is today.

[Kachiko]

I don't think we've ever really seen what the people of Earth think about the rest of the universe. Starfleet certainly projects a certain view, but they aren't Earth. At the time, the Federation was reeling from recent engagements with the Borg and the Dominion war (less than 10 year span), and are now are being asked to help their current greatest enemy. It's not like anyone ever came to earth's defense when it needed it, and humans make up the bulk of Starfleet, so it's not hard to think there are people there that think Earth gets the short end of the stick when it comes to alien conflict. In addition, synthetics recently blew up Mars, which would only lend credence to that idea.

Or you could just say it's a poorly thought out plot point, shaped by current events, that pushes Picard to get back into the fight. Either way, I'm fine with it.

[Karbuncle]

I don't think we've ever really seen what the people of Earth think about the rest of the universe. Starfleet certainly projects a certain view, but they aren't Earth. At the time, the Federation was reeling from recent engagements with the Borg and the Dominion war (less than 10 year span), and are now are being asked to help their current greatest enemy. It's not like anyone ever came to earth's defense when it needed it, and humans make up the bulk of Starfleet, so it's not hard to think there are people there that think Earth gets the short end of the stick when it comes to alien conflict. In addition, synthetics recently blew up Mars, which would only lend credence to that idea.

Or you could just say it's a poorly thought out plot point, shaped by current events, that pushes Picard to get back into the fight. Either way, I'm fine with it.

We see some life of people of Earth in both Starfleet Acadamy, and a bit in DS9 though Benjamin's father... though very little. Which is why its almost entirely more the world building that took place through day to day interactions with the crew of each Starship. Not to mention explicitly stated in several episodes with those kinds of political messages how much we've "evolved" beyond the pettiness of our current time. There may be no camera on Earth, but you can definitely get a feel for it.

As for Romulans being a current enemy, "great' or otherwise, that was left ambiguous at the end of Star Trek: Nemesis but pointed heavily toward the positive. While there is nothing covering the space between now and then, even back when Romulans were our enemies you see interactions like in DS9 and on TNG where its shown not all Romulan's are "bad" or War Hungry. From the episode with Troy being altered to look like a Romulan and being of the Tal Shiar, to the Dominion War episodes on DS9, to the defector in TNG, the episode where they discover the ancestor of all life in our galaxy, etc etc. They try to show us that Romulans are a diverse a people as any, and not all of them want to follow a war hungry military. So, Romulan's may never have been firm allies but the Federation has not been one to stand by and let an entire (advanced) species just get wiped off the grid. Regardless of their allied status, it goes against everything the Federation stands for to just watch them die and turn a blind eye.

Which of course brings me to the fact the one shining example of good writing was that Picard defied orders and decided to help them, which is exactly what he would have done to extend the hand of diplomacy. So at least they've got the Picard character right, so its not all bad. Just seems like another Star Trek series written by people who either know very little or care very little about Star Trek. We're talking just confusing story here, not even taking into account the factual inaccuracies of the series, such as Utopia Planetia, the shipyards that ORBIT mars, was shown to be on the surface of the planet being bombed. Spaceships, surprisingly, are built in Space.

Edit: As far as the Synth plot line goes, we'll have to see how that evolves. Not enough to work with for me to get my nerdy little fingers on.
Edit2: Because I want to restate this again, I'm not trying to pass judgment on the show or anyone for enjoying it, perfectly happy just discussing Star Trek nerd shit. If ya'll want a 2009 Action reboot of TNG then you'll love this show, and hey it could also go really uphill from here for people like me.

[Rulke]

I haven't seen this yet, but its been enjoyable to see people discuss the series in this manner of explanation and curiosity rather than the usual "wtf is this crap" from the Discovery thread which I ceases to lurk in. That alone means ST: P is doing something right imo.

[Kachiko]

We see some life of people of Earth in both Starfleet Acadamy, and a bit in DS9 though Benjamin's father... though very little. Which is why its almost entirely more the world building that took place through day to day interactions with the crew of each Starship. Not to mention explicitly stated in several episodes with those kinds of political messages how much we've "evolved" beyond the pettiness of our current time. There may be no camera on Earth, but you can definitely get a feel for it.

Yes, but we also see main characters struggling with this exact issue.

• Kirk and the Klingons
• Worf and the Romulans
• O'Brien and the Cardasians
• Picard and the Borg

Part of their character growth is learning to over-come or at the least, recognize their bias, however justified it is, but it's always been in Star Trek, and part of the reason we reject the reporter is because we know that's not how it should be, giving us another insight that things just aren't right on Earth anymore.

[Virg]

It´s also been ~20 years since we´ve last been there. A lot of shit can happen within 20 years. And we pretty much don´t know anything about what happened in that timeframe.

[Karbuncle]

Yes, but we also see main characters struggling with this exact issue.

• Kirk and the Klingons
• Worf and the Romulans
• O'Brien and the Cardasians
• Picard and the Borg

Part of their character growth is learning to over-come or at the least, recognize their bias, however justified it is, but it's always been in Star Trek, and part of the reason we reject the reporter is because we know that's not how it should be, giving us another insight that things just aren't right on Earth anymore.

You make good points. I've mentioned that a common theme in many episodes is the seeds of these past failings still exist within us. This kind of topic to some degree was covered in "The Drumhead", where it was shown that if we let it, that kind of evil can take over us again. Which I hope you can understand this is why I take such issue with specifically the scene with the reporter. It doesn't paint that a "seed" is within human kind that could bring back evils we had presumably long since learned to control with eachother, but more than its still very much thriving. That the same "Us vs Them" political beefs still exist, the same prejudices, the same racism... except now its universal instead of inner? To try and provide a reason why I believe this represents a wider audience of the Earth, This wasn't some blogger talking to Picard, it was a huge News Network for the Federation or at the very least Earth, you don't get to that kind of position without spouting what at least some number of people want to hear. The scene could still have worked without the reporter being such a cunt, honestly if the reporter was Vulcan and addressing this from a logical concern point you could argue the logistic of it without it looking like just a bad modern political insert.

As for your individual examples, I'm not disproving them or nothing, I'd just like to include some "Well, Technically's" to it. Worf isn't human, thats one of his like, strongest character points. He was raised by humans, but his heart is still Klingon, and Klingons H A T E Romulans. While he is a lot loss Klingon than other Klingons, he's way more Klingon than other humans... His hatred for Romulans stems from them murdering his parents too, but he even still questioned this hate to some degree during the episode where they rescued the Romulan survivors on Galorndon Core, if only very briefly.

Picard may hate the Borg, he even wanted to destroy them entirely in that anger but eventually decided "no", after seeing the "human" side to them. Before then, it would be worth arguing he thought of them as nothing more than mindless automatons bent on assimilating all life. Unable to be reasoned with, and vastly superior. Still, he decided against genocide, and the morally strongest man of the series let his anger overtake his convictions when it came to the Borg.

O'brian, I'd like to point out during the Rodenberry era, has stated "Its not you I hate Cardassian, I hate what I became because of you". I do recall his prejudice being more "I hate Cardies" during DS9, and I can't dismiss that because it exists in lore, but again, post Rodenberry a lot changed.

It´s also been ~20 years since we´ve last been there. A lot of shit can happen within 20 years. And we pretty much don´t know anything about what happened in that timeframe.

I believe they threw away STO lore, can't blame them its huge, but the last we know of it was ST:Nemesis and to some degree the Star Trek comic that was released with the 2009 reboot. The movie ended on a positive note and a hopeful alliance between Romulans/Federation. I'm sure they could write it any number of ways, but based on what we know the implications were perhaps it was time to make some level of peace, especially since most if not all of the Romulus High council were killed during Nemesis and their planet was in shambles because of Shinzon. It would be difficult for me to imagine during such a time of crisis they would choose to remain political and military enemies with the Federation. I mean they could have rebuilt themselves and then pulled a "Thanks suckers" on us, its up in the air, I hope they explore this more TBH and its not just "Romulans bad because thats all the writers know about Star Trek".

The Comic only shows small bits, but it does show Data being Data again, having asserted himself over B-4 due to the emotion chip Geordi installed into B-4. but since in this timeline B-4 apparently was just straight up chopped into bits, that must be a different timeline or they said "eh fuck it"... IDK which lol.

[Virg]

I'm sure they could write it any number of ways, but based on what we know the implications were perhaps it was time to make some level of peace, especially since most if not all of the Romulus High council were killed during Nemesis and their planet was in shambles because of Shinzon.

I´m actually leaning towards the idea that the Tal'Shiar took over a good portion of whatever remained of the Romulan Empire and were possibly also involved in the sudden and still unexplained "spontaneous" Hobus supernova.

[Karbuncle]

I´m actually leaning towards the idea that the Tal'Shiar took over a good portion of whatever remained of the Romulan Empire and were possibly also involved in the sudden and still unexplained "spontaneous" Hobus supernova.

It was revealed during STO that there was some funky stuff going on that caused the Supernova, Romulan experiments with some stuff. I'm not very clear on STO lore, but I also believed they threw that away for ST: Picard. So its a toss up how they're going to handle it, because you know... Stars don't just explode randomly lol. Also, I could definitely see the Tal Shiar "taking over" after the Romulan government was killed off, I'm trying to remember if the Tal Shiar was caught up in that wiping though, the Nemesis movie is... a blur sometimes.

Its worth noting there was a Federation collaborater planted as one of the leaders of the Tal Shiar in DS9, Koval... this was thanks to Section 31 though.

[theprofessor]

im a huge trekky.. and that new show lookz dope

[Azat]

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[Virg]

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Shut up Wesley! Also, video not available for me ;;

[Virg]

Allrighty then after watching EP2:

Spoiler: show

Turns out my gut feeling was at least partially right, it is the Tal'Shiar (well their precursors whose name I can´t pronounce nor spell properly) who are behind it all. Along with major players in the SF command section. Surprise surprise. Also, fuck man Picard has Iromodic Syndrom. All in all very much enjoyed this episode again apart from the totally unecessary f-bomb that Admiral dropped.

[Karbuncle]

I'm more shocked the writers remembered "All Good Things..." as an episode TBH. I wonder how they'll handle Iromodic Syndrom since its said to basically be Space Dementia with no cure.

[ronin sparthos]

Allrighty then after watching EP2:

Spoiler: show

Turns out my gut feeling was at least partially right, it is the Tal'Shiar (well their precursors whose name I can´t pronounce nor spell properly) who are behind it all. Along with major players in the SF command section. Surprise surprise. Also, fuck man Picard has Iromodic Syndrom. All in all very much enjoyed this episode again apart from the totally unecessary f-bomb that Admiral dropped.

Spoiler: show

Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud when Picard made his request and got that as a response. If there needed to be an F-bomb in Trek, that was a proper place for it to be.

Picard walks into a room, unfurls a conspiracy theory, demands a crew, a warp capable ship and reinstatement into Starfleet after trashing his former employer on TV and figured they'd be like np Jean-Luc, we'll give you one of our old ships like this is Bond film or some shit lol.

[Takiwaki]

The modern day slang they throwing around in a certain places irks the hell out of me though. Hell Ya!

[Gadritan]

Spoiler: show

Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud when Picard made his request and got that as a response. If there needed to be an F-bomb in Trek, that was a proper place for it to be.

Picard walks into a room, unfurls a conspiracy theory, demands a crew, a warp capable ship and reinstatement into Starfleet after trashing his former employer on TV and figured they'd be like np Jean-Luc, we'll give you one of our old ships like this is Bond film or some shit lol.

I have to agree. It was unexpected and absolutely perfect.

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