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Thread: Time for FFXI "Classic"?     submit to reddit submit to twitter

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    I still love how regardless of where this topic is brought up (ffxiah, Reddit, BG) draylo and LoH are always there to trash talk the 75 era. It's amazing you have time to play the game with how often you're forced to White Knight it. Ah jk draylo hasn't actually played in eons and he buys clears
    Yes I do, because I make a ton of gil through other means and I have a busy RL where I make a lot of money. No time to dedicate to an LS so I bought a dynamis clear, where during the clear I made double what I spent on another character. Not sure what your point was lol, but I guess you know with who I purchased it from. You're so filled with anger, why does it bother you that people have a discussion on 75 era? It has both sides and both sides regularly debate their opinions, something a forum is known for, shocker.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    Yes I do, because I make a ton of gil through other means and I have a busy RL where I make a lot of money. No time to dedicate to an LS so I bought a dynamis clear, where during the clear I made double what I spent on another character. Not sure what your point was lol, but I guess you know with who I purchased it from. You're so filled with anger, why does it bother you that people have a discussion on 75 era? It has both sides and both sides regularly debate their opinions, something a forum is known for, shocker.
    Because you don't actually want to have a discussion on why it was or was not bad.

    When other people actually debate me on this topic we actually debate if it is good or not for games to have gatekeeping mechanisms, exclusionary design that promotes hierarchy, etc.

    You just say you disliked it because of X, and when people say X is actually good, you say "Well that's your opinion."

  3. #403
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    I've debated it since Abyssea came out. In the end its ALL opinions, none of us sway SE with our debates and most certainly nobodies opinions seem to change. There is a difference between debating and personally insulting people constantly, like that guy does every post he makes in the topics around 75 era.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    In the end its ALL opinions, none of us sway SE with our debates and most certainly nobodies opinions seem to change.
    When we debate it's not about opinions of "75 cap good" vs. "75 cap bad," it is about identifying and comparing values. Most everyone has the same opinion about what Abyssea did to the game -- it raised the level cap, obsoleted gear, upended the HNMLS system, etc.

    We we have are differing conclusions about whether those changes were beneficial/hurtful are based on disparate priorities/values.

    When I argue that Abyssea and everything after it is trash it's because I'm saying that 75 cap FFXI was better because it promoted what I argue was a better set of design values.

    To the extent that people advocate different systems in trying to promote the same values, we can actually prove something right or wrong beyond mere opinion. For instance, what type of End Game system best encourages skill, is not merely a matter of opinion, that is something we can subject to theoretical and empirical analysis. We can examine what the systems force people to do, and what effect that has on the player base.

    To the extent that we must weigh values against each other, there is no objective method. I think that there's plenty of room to call people's values into question, but at this point people usually don't budge. Like political arguments between two partisans, an argument can rarely change your mind when your opinion is anchored in differing values.

    I have defended 75 cap because I argue that the things it had (HNMLS Guild Ecosystem with multiple Large Guilds competing for Hierarchy, zero-sum server limited spawns, lateral upgrades) better promoted the following values that I think are good: Challenge, Competition, and Accomplishment Durability.

    Comparatively you just say that stuff sucked and you disliked it and the game is better now.

    Like no one's mind ever changes about abortion, but there's a difference between people that dig their heels in and say sinners will go to hell and someone who is able to write a published paper in an ethics journal about why we should consider zygotes alive.

  5. #405
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    I've played both extensively, key word played. I don't buy clears and I can confirm that the 75 era is infinitely better, sorry draylo.

  6. #406

    Quote Originally Posted by Gredival View Post
    I have defended 75 cap because I argue that the things it had (HNMLS Guild Ecosystem with multiple Large Guilds competing for Hierarchy, zero-sum server limited spawns, lateral upgrades) better promoted the following values that I think are good: Challenge, Competition, and Accomplishment Durability.
    And I don't see how 100~ people competing for a spawn is "challenge". The majority of the people in that system gets absolutely nothing for spending hours on the game. And this is a scenario where people would set alarms and wake up in the middle of the night to engage in. That's a wildly unhealthy gaming mechanism and should not be promoted as a "good" thing.

    I also don't see the point about lateral upgrades. Most gear in 75 era was absolute garbage, most gear for leveling was simply an increase in defense, and maybe 1-4 to an attribute, which mathematically is EXTREMELY minor. At endgame you had very limited good options as well. The best WS set was usually from Sky, the first endgame instance of the game, and in most cases that never got beat during the 75 era. The belt TP belt in the game was level 55, unless you were a MNK. The itemization of 75 cap was garbage and usually there was one totally amazing piece that shown over everything else, and the difference between most other pieces was almost entirely unnoticeable. Whereas today I have different tiers of TP set based on needs for TA, STP, DW, DT, Accuracy, magic evasion, etc. I have 13 different Ambuscade backs for my THF, and they see use. I have multiple sets of weapons, and I actually use them. 75 days I had a Mandau and that was done, no other mainhand dagger needed. Today BiS mainhand weapon will differ between Twashtar, Aeneas (sorta), Tauret, Malevolence, Vajra and Gandring depending on what you're aiming to do. When it comes to lateral upgrades, 2019 FFXI absolutely destroys 75 cap FFXI.

    I also consider wave 3 Dynamis, and some Master Trials, to be higher on the "challenge" scale than pretty much anything at 75 cap. So the only point 75 cap has over 2019 is the concept of competition between LS.

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    It's amazing that you're arguing that having an entire wardrobe worth of gear for 1 job is a good thing. I'm sure you would take the exact opposite stance on this if it benefited you in another argument (not saying it benefits you in this one, it doesn't).

    Saying that camping HNMs (5% of endgame) is unhealthy but then saying 120 pieces for 1 job that the most game breaking add-on manages for you while you change gear mid combat and before spells(yours or mobs) is a good mechanic is absolutely boggling but it's how you always approach this subject which is why no one takes you seriously.

    Also wave 3 is an 18man event that requires 6 people max to clear. You probably find Mario kart on 50cc to be a challenge too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    You probably find Mario kart on 50cc to be a challenge too.
    Serious question, if a person did find that a challenge, what exactly are you suggesting about that person?

  9. #409

    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    It's amazing that you're arguing that having an entire wardrobe worth of gear for 1 job is a good thing. I'm sure you would take the exact opposite stance on this if it benefited you in another argument (not saying it benefits you in this one, it doesn't).

    Saying that camping HNMs (5% of endgame) is unhealthy but then saying 120 pieces for 1 job that the most game breaking add-on manages for you while you change gear mid combat and before spells(yours or mobs) is a good mechanic is absolutely boggling but it's how you always approach this subject which is why no one takes you seriously.

    Also wave 3 is an 18man event that requires 6 people max to clear. You probably find Mario kart on 50cc to be a challenge too.
    Getting gear and being able to utilize it for my job is a negative, but standing for hours to spam dia/flash/stun for 30s every 30min is the good shit? I don't really understand that logic.

    I love the gear swapping nature of FFXI, it's basically the defining difference between this game and other MMO's. It allows for horizontal progression to exist, it allows for so much variety in what you can accomplish. Expanded on that is what makes current FFXI so much better than 75. Honestly if you don't like the gear swapping nature of FFXI, what is it you find enjoyable about this slow combat system...?

    And 75 Dynamis was a 64 man event you could clear with less than 12 people, so I don't really see your argument about challenge winning there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanriel View Post
    I love the gear swapping nature of FFXI, it's basically the defining difference between this game and other MMO's. It allows for horizontal progression to exist, it allows for so much variety in what you can accomplish. Expanded on that is what makes current FFXI so much better than 75. Honestly if you don't like the gear swapping nature of FFXI, what is it you find enjoyable about this slow combat system...?
    To be clear, you don't use gearswap? I know that's a lie. So gearswap is handling the swaps of your gear after you borrow someone elses lua file and edit in your items. so what you're left with is the slow combat system after an add-on takes care of what you "enjoy" about the games combat?

    talk about a self defeated argument, but about what you bring to the table every time.

    i love how this guy brings up HNM every single time yet ignores how it was 5% of endgame at 75, even in a post that he quoted where i specifically said that.

  11. #411
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    Unpopular opinion, but Abyssea era was a great balancer. Prior to Abyssea, various jobs had theoretical specialties but none of which could be realized in practical gameplay because the effects were not exaggerated (read: potent) enough to be useful. For example, THF has super high evasion, MNK has high evasion skill/counter/HP. Neither would be considered tanks outright, but in Abyssea with the right Atmas, you could have a DNC, MNK, or a THF tank, and against certain NMs, these were more desirable than PLD. DRG was not really viable in the 75 era, but in the 80+ era with the advent of critical hit+ Atmas, Drakesbane suddenly became a top contender and DRG became one of the top DPS. BLU was a mediocre job for merit parties and a Cannonball slut for HNMs, but in Abyssea they became an Ace of All Trades, excelling at burning shit down for Magian Trials, stun locking almost every boss, and incredibly potent CDCs. Basically, the bottom barrel jobs became great or top tier in Abyssea, and many of the previous gods became lackluster. COR MNK THF BLU DRG WAR BLM SCH NIN WHM PUP DNC were gods in Abyssea, BRD, PLD, RDM, DRK, RNG were pretty mediocre. (RNG really needed Jishnu to be competitive).

    Post Abyssea, the balance again was disrupted as people started doing shit like Legion where you again needed to zerg things down with stuns and needed your SAM/WAR/DRK/BRD/COR groups again.

    People love 75 era but often forget more than half the jobs were useless for any content (or rather another way of putting it is that half the game's jobs were comically better than the other half). RNG DRK WAR NIN PLD WHM RDM SAM were the most effective jobs for HNMs back in the day (notice I didn't say viable). Of course people brought THF for TH, or BLU for SATACA+Cannonballs or SMN for a Spinning Dive every 50 seconds, but nothing was as effective 2003-2010 as the aforementioned jobs for end game. Nobody was bringing COR or Dynamis Lord (outside of Wildcard), nobody bringing DNC to Vrtra, or DRG to Tiamat, etc. The game was heavily skewed against melee jobs without exorbitant buffing and the firepower between damage dealers was so unjustifiably huge. At least during Abyssea, every job could deal tremendous damage with the right build and despite not every job being as useful for proccing, each jobs could exaggerate their base class's forte to accentuate their gameplay. THF/MNK/NIN/DNC/BLU could solo nearly anything with high evasion/mitigation, etc.

    What made 75 era so unbearable and frustrating to me was the extreme lack of Dev responsiveness when it came to adjusting jobs that sorely needed them. At the peak of loldrg mentality, when DRG was vastly weaker than all other DPS by a wide margin in nearly all end game content, the devs has the tone-deafness to begrudge having to buff DRG, despite the community lamenting for years at how ineffective of a class it was. At least in the post-Abyssea era of FFXI, job updates happened with more regularity and the DPS of all jobs was given a vast increase to make many DPS jobs competitive to varying degrees. It's still rather shocking to me that PUP never got an overhaul to make them somewhat more competitive outside of casual content.
    "We do not feel dragoon to be particularly weak when compared to other jobs" was so laughable because this was a time when WAR/DRK/SAM/RNG were dropping 1k-1.5k weapon skills while DRG could barely break 300 with Wheeling Thrust's shitty 1.25 fTP. This was a time when DRG's only role on HNMs (if even allowed to come as DRG) was to /SAM and meditate until you could unleash a full TP Spirits Within with DRG's D combat skill in Swords. At least MNKs could Boost and unleash and extremely powerful Chi Blast. You know, using their main job's own unique job abilities.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    I've played both extensively, key word played. I don't buy clears and I can confirm that the 75 era is infinitely better, sorry draylo.
    Ive already cleared a wave 3 with my previous LS. It isn't hard, just requires bodies as you cant solo it lol. Youre trying hard.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanriel View Post
    And I don't see how 100~ people competing for a spawn is "challenge". The majority of the people in that system gets absolutely nothing for spending hours on the game. And this is a scenario where people would set alarms and wake up in the middle of the night to engage in. That's a wildly unhealthy gaming mechanism and should not be promoted as a "good" thing.
    1. The game itself became easier in Abyssea and Voidwatch. Cruor enchancements, Atma, Temp items. These fundamentally removed the concept of tanking from the game, made healing easier, removed the concept of crowd control from fights, removed the need to min-max gear to do good damage.

    2. Lowmanning itself is an easier form of gameplay. There is a natural challenge inherent in large group situations that cannot be attained simply by adjusting the amount of people down. The larger the fight the more opportunities for intricacy. It requires a higher level of collective skill when you impose the need for organization/coordination. For example, all the things I pointed out in my previous point removed the need for a group to show restraint and employ proper crowd control. Those were organizational/coordination challenges for your support players. The group had to be able to collectively react to a situation and work together. When fights are limited to lowman groups the level of intricacy is constrained. Yes, you can have a multi-faceted encounter with just 7-9 people. However the level of complication is always shallower than with 18 people. Think about it this way: a group of three people tasked with additional spawn crowd control can be charged with controlling more mobs than three times the amount one person should be able to handle. If a single person handles crowd control the spawns must be limited by however many spells he has. The encounter has to designed such that one person can do it all. However if you design the encounter for a large group and can assign three people to crowd control, you can increase the amount of spawns by more than three because they can stagger their spells. The very nature of a larger group expands the challenges you can throw in because you can force them to rely on good timing and organization to handle more than they could each do individually. This is the essence of a good team becomes greater than merely the sum of its parts.

    3. Competition is an inherent value in video games. "But video games aren't a competition, they are supposed to be fun!" Yes, games are supposed to be fun. Here's the kicker. Competition makes games fun. Games rely on a sense of mastery/challenge to be fun. But mastery is relative. We value the acquisition of skills and the mastery of skills, but we judge the quality of our skills and the degree of our mastery through comparisons to other. People in a cooking contest enjoy the cooking because there's an element of mastery involved by comparing how good their food is relative to others. They want to validate their mastery through recognition compared to others. FFXI is primarily a game based on PvE (player vs. environment). The theme of XI is adventurers; this was reiterated in Abyssea's storyline itself. Given that, competition in this game should center on PvE. In other words the contest to be the best adventurer is a contest about who best conquers the environment of Vanadiel. The best way then to challenge players to get better than one another is to force them to compete for a limited resource.

    Zero-sum competition between the player base is good. It drives the player base to work harder to top each other, it increases the fun of the game, it increases the value of accomplishments. The claim system rewards the group who brings the most people willing to actually pay attention, balanced against giving everyone a shot proportionate to their own collective effort camping. That sounds pretty fair. As far as skinner boxes go I'd rather have a lever mechanism that is a competition between me and the other rats vs. a skinner box where we all run our own individual treadmills and race to see who gets lucky with the lever mechanism first. Plus I think farming systems are tedious and would rather just fight the big bads than go through tech trees all the time.

    4. World spawns rewards I'd argue the best system is a meritocracy which rewards the most skilled, regardless of comparative time dedication. We do not crown NBA champions or Superbowl winners based on how much practice they did, we crown them based on who is the best at the game... determined by the competition.

    World Spawns are far from perfect at this... but are much better at it than instances. World Spawns blend a bit of "most time dedication" (in a communal sense; the group that puts in the most hours, when you consider each individual member's contributions separately, tends to have a claiming advantage) with direct competition and skill test (you don't get to wipe and try again, you mess up if someone's better than you they will kill it instead).

    Some people legitimately didn't have schedules that were conducive to world spawn systems. However I do believe that, if devoted, anyone could attain almost anything EVENTUALLY from an HNMLS as long as they were willing to put in whatever time they did have to a linkshell. (Except for Defending Ring due to its rarity, you could just plain out never see it drop ever).

    More people simply refused to level support jobs to gain entry into an HNMLS because they expect to be able to come in as a dime a dozen DPS/tank (and probably poorly geared at that since your objective in joining an HNMLS is to get gear).

    Some stuff, even in games, is supposed to be hard. Shut up and do it. And if you can't, well that's where you rank as a player. Just like most kids aren't gonna get into Harvard, you can't have everyone be the best at a game. When Relics came out, SE specifically said not everyone was supposed to get one. Similarly, I think not everyone was supposed to get Ridill, Adaberk, Dramatica, and D-Ring.

    I am NOT advocating that you have to play the game a certain way. My opinion is simply that not everyone deserves top level rewards in virtue of playing. FFXI is like any other game. Go play Street Fighter or StarCraft at your own pace and your own way; the game is there for you to enjoy. But if you don't excel then you don't get ranked into the highest leagues.

    There is no shame in that unless you yourself are making a value judgment based on that. And if you are, maybe you care a bit more about your relative position in that competition than you want to admit.

    5. You didn't have to play the HNMLS style of you didn't want to. XI never lacked for content. There was a ton of stuff to do in FFXI that most of us just never bothered with because the rewards are insufficient. There was tons of content for non-HNMLS players in 75 cap that no one touched. Did you get Rank 10 on all 3 nations? Did you do those WotG missions/quests that didn't have rewards (finished well after most players left)? Assault? SCNM? ANNM? Nyzul? MMM? ToaU Beastmen Generals?

    If the "fun" is to be had in doing content, then all there needs to be is content to do right? It shouldn't matter that the reward for all of that content was paltry.

    The fact that people didn't do content that had no rewards reveals that there was an integral relationship between the enjoyment of content and its rewards. Content has to have some terminal uptake to motivate people to do it. We're not here to consume content for fun in and of itself, we played because we were in a skinner box. We are seeking that chemically stimulated euphoria we get from mastering certain tasks and being given treats for that mastery. Which means there is incentive as a matter of fact to make the treats harder to get.

    People always react adversely to gear rarity, regardless of how that rarity is implemented. When gear was available through low man instances in Salvage people STILL were willing to cheat. The world spawn system is a red herring excuse. People just want to expend minimal effort to get gear.

    I also don't see the point about lateral upgrades. Most gear in 75 era was absolute garbage, most gear for leveling was simply an increase in defense, and maybe 1-4 to an attribute, which mathematically is EXTREMELY minor. At endgame you had very limited good options as well. The best WS set was usually from Sky, the first endgame instance of the game, and in most cases that never got beat during the 75 era. The belt TP belt in the game was level 55, unless you were a MNK. The itemization of 75 cap was garbage and usually there was one totally amazing piece that shown over everything else, and the difference between most other pieces was almost entirely unnoticeable. Whereas today I have different tiers of TP set based on needs for TA, STP, DW, DT, Accuracy, magic evasion, etc. I have 13 different Ambuscade backs for my THF, and they see use. I have multiple sets of weapons, and I actually use them. 75 days I had a Mandau and that was done, no other mainhand dagger needed. Today BiS mainhand weapon will differ between Twashtar, Aeneas (sorta), Tauret, Malevolence, Vajra and Gandring depending on what you're aiming to do. When it comes to lateral upgrades, 2019 FFXI absolutely destroys 75 cap FFXI.
    XI content was slower than other MMOs; it worked because XI was created from the start to work on horizontal progression. It isn't about the amount of gear. It's about permanence of progression.

    Lifting the 75 cap was a reset switch that, inherently, was bad because it introduced vertical progression.

    And the fact is that in the end it tanked the player base. Casuals yearned for a reset. They got it. They loved it. Subscriptions spiked.

    Then when they maxed out in gear because NOTHING in Abyssea was a challenge, they got bored and left. Subscriptions cratered. Now you lost the casuals with no attention span, and the hardcore players that were just screwed over left as well.

    Ito invested in the wrong player base. Zero-sum server capped World Spawns were the best way to introduce sufficient supply control on gear. And the playerbase didn't know what was best for them.

    I also consider wave 3 Dynamis, and some Master Trials, to be higher on the "challenge" scale than pretty much anything at 75 cap. So the only point 75 cap has over 2019 is the concept of competition between LS.
    You have to rate content scaled to the capabilities of the time. Fafnir was a lot harder when we used Adaman PLD/WAR with Earth Staff and before BLM potency merits and GHorn Ballads.

    Also even near the end of 75 cap, as trivial as you make Fafhogg out to be, I will stand by the following statement: pre-twohand patch, an alliance of players all with median level skill for their jobs, arranged in a typically sufficient alliance (tank party, blm party, skillchainers) would not have the coordination, skill, reaction time, gear, etc. to beat Fafnir before rage. I'm basing this off the level of quality of a normal player as I have experienced it and watching tons of start-up shout LS go in and fail miserable at Fafnir.

    Being a successful HNMLS demands a much different skillset from its members. It is a skill set 80% of the players in this game lack. It tests timing, understanding of positioning, reaction time, and yes the ability to simply fucking listen. I think people who lack these skills shouldn't succeed at this game. The biggest example I can give you is Shamshir and Hauteclaire. A wretched tank PLD who can kill 300 crabs but couldn't tank his way out of a paper bag can get Shamshir. Hauteclaire requires a halfway decent LS, and maybe it sadly doesn't require that you personally tanked Khimaira, it does mean you ideally are a competent enough player that an LS that can do Khimaira keeps you around.

    Attaining King gear required devotion and commitment. Not only within an HNMLS to earn the right to lot on gear, but to gain entry into an HNMLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post

    People love 75 era but often forget more than half the jobs were useless for any content (or rather another way of putting it is that half the game's jobs were comically better than the other half). RNG DRK WAR NIN PLD WHM RDM SAM were the most effective jobs for HNMs back in the day (notice I didn't say viable). Of course people brought THF for TH, or BLU for SATACA+Cannonballs or SMN for a Spinning Dive every 50 seconds, but nothing was as effective 2003-2010 as the aforementioned jobs for end game. Nobody was bringing COR or Dynamis Lord (outside of Wildcard), nobody bringing DNC to Vrtra, or DRG to Tiamat, etc. The game was heavily skewed against melee jobs without exorbitant buffing and the firepower between damage dealers was so unjustifiably huge. At least during Abyssea, every job could deal tremendous damage with the right build and despite not every job being as useful for proccing, each jobs could exaggerate their base class's forte to accentuate their gameplay. THF/MNK/NIN/DNC/BLU could solo nearly anything with high evasion/mitigation, etc.
    This is not a unique problem. All games run into the issue where everyone wants to DPS and no one wants to support, be utility, or tank. Any game where there are roles, the playerbase skews overwhelmingly towards damage. Dota 2, LoL, Overwatch, every MMO.

    Everyone wants to do damage, so we kept getting more jobs that were different variations of physical DPS overcrowding the limited 4 slots in an alliance for physical DPS. There is no solution to this other than making the game overly easy.

    As someone who devoted years of my life to gearing my THF and never getting to come to events on it because we could just put TH on with a dummy account then kick it from party, I have no qualms about end game being centralized around BLM damage and minimal upkeep skill chainers (SAM, RNG).

    Want to get into an HNMLS? Level WHM, RDM, or BRD.

    Also Abyssea didn't fix the gaps between jobs; it just made shit so easy the shit jobs could get stuff done. If you wanted to do something optimally, WAR and SAM still shit all over anything else. Abyssea just didn't require us to min-max anymore because LOLgear and LOLskill when you have a literal immortality potion and triple Atma.

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    Can anyone tldr holy shit bro relax

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fondue View Post
    Can anyone tldr holy shit bro relax
    Hiromichi Tanaka was Jesus and we murdered him because we didn't understand. Mizuki Ito was Judas.

  17. #417
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    Damn dude, you know you have that saved in a notepad file.

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    Tanakas 14 was the best

  19. #419
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    Also I could refute every point but Ill just say that anyone could have any gear because mercing existed since day 1. So any scrub pld could have that gear without doing the content during that era, killing any point of exclusion you made.

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    At least Gred has the balls to reply with a thought out argument and he will have a discussion. I'd bet a Behemoth Steak D44k won't respond to my post because he can't slam another person's opinion or somehow make him seem better than X so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by D44kpunk View Post
    You probably find Mario kart on 50cc to be a challenge too.
    Serious question, if a person did find that a challenge, what exactly are you suggesting about that person?

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