Diablo IV (PC/PS5/XSX/PS4) - June 6, 2023

[Prothescar]

I'd be more forgiving if blizzard didn't invent the damn genre to begin with. Was no reason to have the game launch in such a barren, shattered state.

"It's not the same people!" not an excuse. Human advancement doesn't grind to a halt when the inventor of a new idea dies. The design philosophy and groundwork laid by previous devs and visionaries didn't have to be discarded and forgotten.

[Qalbert]

for sure, but I'd rather them halt the new content treadmill and fix it now than pump out seasons for a fundamentally flawed game. I'm not going to act like this in any way makes up for it or justifies anything, but of their available moves I think it's the best.

[Prothescar]

Sure I don't disagree with that (though there is an argument to be made that they could allocate part of their 600+ person dev team toward making a basic seasonal theme..), just ruminating on how ridiculous it is that the core element of the game needed to be practically completely remade to begin with.

[Kachiko]

Also, making seasons down the line becomes easier if your core game's systems are more or less complete, instead of constantly trying to build over an ever-changing foundation.

[Meresgi]

HD2 vs This for me is that Arrowhead has at least garnered good will from me so i'm willing to overlook weird balancing changes at times or bugs in the game since the core loop is fun and engaging. Even with all the Sony drama going on right now.

Blizzard on the other hand has time and again done this exact same dance and I only have myself to blame for picking up D4 at launch, i'll be giving the expansion a very very skeptical eye (Though typically the expansion actually improves/fixes the base game and makes it workable).

If S4 didn't have a battle pass I wouldn't get annoyed by it being "content" but I believe they are still selling a battle pass for the season?

[arus2001]

I'll just be that guy that reiterates seasons are a bad thing and have been holding Blizzard games back, but that's not really a conversation ARPGers want to have.

[Weltall]

I'll just be that guy that reiterates seasons are a bad thing and have been holding Blizzard games back, but that's not really a conversation ARPGers want to have.

Said it years ago in this thread. This game should have been structured like Lost Ark. Lost Ark's gameplay is S tier. 4-8 man raids against Diablo enemies would be epic.

[Prothescar]

I'll just be that guy that reiterates seasons are a bad thing and have been holding Blizzard games back, but that's not really a conversation ARPGers want to have.

It's not that no one want's to have the conversation, it's that it's an ignorant take. Content and game balance changes get pushed to both standard and league servers in PoE. Blizzard doing it wrong is completely removed from a game doing it right. Seasons are nothing but a net positive for ARPGs.

[Krandor]

Seasonal models are absolutely the way to go for ARPGs.

Diablo III got a massive amount of mileage out of the themed seasons, I was definitely all about that life with a group of coworkers during the time period from like 2015-2018. We'd cycle roles each season to keep it fresh along with whatever individual flavor the season itself brought.

[Qalbert]

the issue, as has been covered to death (and affects a ton of 'live' games) is too much of the upfront work goes into planning out how to KEEP people playing and churning that out without making sure the foundation is solid enough to make people want to play in the first place. part of what I love/hate about destiny is that for it's many faults both the moment to moment gameplay, and the high points, are good enough that I keep coming back, even if like half the time it's just to gripe about all the shit that isn't that good, lol.

[Meresgi]

I'll just be that guy that reiterates seasons are a bad thing and have been holding Blizzard games back, but that's not really a conversation ARPGers want to have.

vs what? Just piling onto the base game every content update. While that might work for some, not for Blizzard for sure. I mean look at WoW, new players are lost as hell and Blizzard never goes back to older things to tweak/fix or update for years if ever. Seasons are fine, I think battle passes should remain active much like HD2 and let you complete them in the eternal realm though to remove the bullshit FOMO and let newer players get access to older cosmetics.

[Prothescar]

That'd be good, especially if you pay for the premium one

[Krandor]

Time gating cosmetics always seems like such a dumb idea in any game. A player jumping in after the fact and seeing a cool costume and knowing they'll never be able to get it is just silly design

[arus2001]

vs what? Just piling onto the base game every content update. While that might work for some, not for Blizzard for sure. I mean look at WoW, new players are lost as hell and Blizzard never goes back to older things to tweak/fix or update for years if ever. Seasons are fine, I think battle passes should remain active much like HD2 and let you complete them in the eternal realm though to remove the bullshit FOMO and let newer players get access to older cosmetics.

There are a number of factors at play, really.

1) Development time is wasted on creating temporary content as opposed to permanent additions.
1a) In the unlikely event a season theme persists, the players essentially become glorified beta testers.
1b) PTRs can and should exist for conceptual testing, as internal testing can either miss a lot of things or get too stuck in their vision. D4 as a whole reflects this blunder, but it's also on the devs to actually listen.

2) The incentive to create and maintain a character is highly diminished when they can't maintain access to the full game. More broadly, it comes off as a "Play our way or else!" kind of strongarming.

3) Everyone starting on equal footing with "fresh starts" is a myth, generally perpetuated by the more casual players that want to believe they're like the hardcores only for that to be proven false within hours of a start.

4) Seasons do nothing to tighten the concept of an economy and instead encourage the lazy approach of just sweeping everything to off-season as MUDflation creeps in. This wouldn't be as much of a problem is non-season had equal access to everything, but overall, what to do with the eventual surplus of useful items hasn't really been explored in depth because seasons give the pass not to.

5) Updates wind up rationed, going from a "when they're ready" approach to "we'll just make a giant pile for quarterly releases" unless some bug in the player's favor is found. That shit's surely hotfixed overnight. And yes, "maintaining seasonal integrity" has been an excuse for this in the past.

6) Leveraging FOMO and insisting that the temporary nature of things is the draw and not that new content would actually bring people back and/or maintain. However, we also need to be mindful that the logic some players have that a game is only good if it's the only game you play for thousands of hours for years is not a healthy nor a goal to be chased from a developer.
6a) The MTX angle can't be ignored, either. But I'm just personally tired of "gamers" not pushing back on this bullshit as it's progressively worsened. So let's just say everything should be earnable in-game without insidious grind, period.

7) The obsession with competition also leads to wasted dev time, but the easy correlation of seasons to (e)sports gets players frothing over useless stuff like leaderboards and can even become a springboard for bad take kneejerk reactions like over-nerfing a build.



Otherwise, acknowledging that content does have a shelf life, the notion of perpetually reinventing the early game is a fool's errand. PLs were chased in older games as a nod to this reality, but in a perfect world, new classes, builds, and skills would keep people running the hamster wheel over time. Pointing out accounts have a limited number of character slots in a lot of games should probably be a concern to this end, and while I understand companies don't want people trolling their servers with thousands of level 1 mules or whatever (honorable mention to inventory woes, of course), the idea of being able to earn additional slots should be a thing as continued encouragement of playing the game and experimenting. This isn't to say you can't introduce new low or mid-level things that can work in tandem with the already established foundation, but if something like a skill adjustment winds up making the early game easier, I can't say that justifies a panic rewrite of the early game. Either tweak the skill a bit to not be as front-loaded or just embrace the power fantasy.

Of course, no amount of, "PoE did xyz, so that's how it should be!" will win me over because I gave PoE multiple chances in the past to draw me in and all it succeeded in achieving is reminding me that stubbornly clinging to year 2000 game design in appeals to tradition or chasing genre purity isn't where I want to be. I didn't like seasons when D2 did them. I obviously still don't now. I don't believe they're core to the genre and bring more harm than good. I don't discount some people find enjoyment, but on the flip side, exposure to an online game where it isn't present these days to experience otherwise is something newer gamers probably haven't had the opportunity to live through. Nonetheless, I'll take soft resets like level cap increases or increased gear tiers over having to start from scratch just to see something new. Character attachment matters, and with the MMO backgrounds most of us here should have, it's hopefully an understandable perspective.

[Qalbert]

Time gating cosmetics always seems like such a dumb idea in any game. A player jumping in after the fact and seeing a cool costume and knowing they'll never be able to get it is just silly design

one of the few things Avengers and Halo Infinite (and maybe Suicide Squad?) got right was the ability to choose which 'pass' you want active and earning from at a given time, you paid for it so you can earn the stuff three years later, if the game still exists lol

[Weltall]

Time gating cosmetics always seems like such a dumb idea in any game. A player jumping in after the fact and seeing a cool costume and knowing they'll never be able to get it is just silly design

It isn't though. I can guarantee you they put significant resources into analytics around this stuff. They have simply determined more people will buy if it they feel it is their only chance to do so versus people knowing they can buy it at any point and deciding to wait (+) new players buying it down the road. A lot of people in that "I can buy it whenever" scenario will ultimately never purchase it.

The best time to sell a cosmetic is immediately and to limit the acquistion period.

[Krandor]

I don't give a shit about the financial implications, it's dumb to immediately punish new or lapsed players by waving shit in front of their face that they can never obtain

[Weltall]

Too bad, they do and they know what works.

[Lucavi]

Something something shareholders.

[Meresgi]

It isn't though. I can guarantee you they put significant resources into analytics around this stuff. They have simply determined more people will buy if it they feel it is their only chance to do so versus people knowing they can buy it at any point and deciding to wait (+) new players buying it down the road. A lot of people in that "I can buy it whenever" scenario will ultimately never purchase it.

The best time to sell a cosmetic is immediately and to limit the acquistion period.

I agree when it's targeting current players, it's that FOMO trigger in our brains and they pray on that like mother fuckers...but it's also short sighted because new players coming in may want to buy those things too and if they aren't available you've now just fucked yourself out of potential sales. I'm sure they've run the math but it's math based on CEO/shareholder short sighted boosts instead of actually getting more $$ in the long run. Why make $1million next quarter when I can make 400k right now?!?!!!